And the Klebbie goes to...Worst execution of a good idea page 147

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    jobo wrote: »
    I think there's a distinction to be made for the scene in TMWTGG considering we know Bond has nothing to give the boy and he is in the middle of a life or death situation. He didn't have much choice.

    Which begs the question; what were the writers thinking when they added the boy to the scene in the first place? For what purpose? Was it supposed to be funny? I find it quite disturbing to be honest...

    Why disturbing? The worst aspect to it is that I can see is that Bond promises to give a poor child a good amount of money (in an off-hand joke which he doesn't actually expect the boy to be able to follow through on) and breaks his promise. It's a bit dickish of him to not even be apologetic about it, but as Craig said the alternative was having a passenger along in a high speed chase.. once he'd make the joke there weren't really any other options for him.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited July 2020 Posts: 8,216
    jobo wrote: »
    I think there's a distinction to be made for the scene in TMWTGG considering we know Bond has nothing to give the boy and he is in the middle of a life or death situation. He didn't have much choice.

    Which begs the question; what were the writers thinking when they added the boy to the scene in the first place? For what purpose? Was it supposed to be funny? I find it quite disturbing to be honest...

    It's a cheap gag admittedly; but they needed Bond's boat to break down to increase the danger - he is left a sitting duck as a result - but they then also needed a quick and easy fix for that breakdown to allow Bond to escape.

    Is not paying the kid the thing that makes Bond a jerk here? Or is it that he pushes him off the boat? Or is it just disturbing in that it is a child?

    I can understand the last question, conceptually, but I think Bond did what he needed to in the situation. The boy being kept on the boat and potentially being collateral damage later would be worse.

    Slapping Dink on the ass, for example, is more suitable because it's not something he has to do in that moment. He's not in any danger. There's no extreme circumstances. And again, for my choice, the Solitaire scenario, his approach there certainly wasn't his only option. What he got out of it makes his actions seem all the more ungentlemanly.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    Yeah, when he tells Rosie “I certainly wouldn’t have before” it’s a nice moment of him being a bastard, because she slept with him willingly. It’s certainly not a kind moment, but it is at least consensual and he hasn’t pressured her into it like he does with Solitare, which is creepy. She’s also really young!
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2020 Posts: 4,247
    Roughing up a woman and throwing a boy into the river is something I don't like. It isn't Bond's finest hour. but I think the only case I can make for Moore's Bond in TMWTGG is, he's an angry and serious Bond in a Bond film that didn't need such aggressive displays, since the film is somewhat comical, so the serious performance looks a bit misplaced. But an Assassin sent a bullet with his number on it and he has never met the Assassin, which he finds annoying because the Assassin could be lurking around. So he didn't really care if he was manhandling a woman, since she was his accomplice. My God! I think Maud Adams was lucky Dalton wasn't Bond in this film.

    In the case of the boy, I think Bond threw the boy into the river, because he saw the child swimming into his boat earlier, meaning if Bond threw the child back, the child could handle himself. And another thing is Bond threw the child back, possibly to save the child from the chase. Maybe if he kept the child on, those goons might have harmed the child. And we wouldn't want to see a child harmed and possibly killed in a Bond film.

    Bless his gentle soul. I think Moore in retrospect, did apologize for these scenes.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I actually like Moore's performances in his first two films the most, strangely enough. Bond should tread that moral line, it's in the nature of his work. It doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise him, of course, from our more righteous point of view (on the contrary); but it's one of the things that makes him interesting as a protagonist, for me - he does things that I wouldn't even comprehend doing.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I actually like Moore's performances in his first two films the most, strangely enough. Bond should tread that moral line, it's in the nature of his work. It doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise him, of course, from our more righteous point of view (on the contrary); but it's one of the things that makes him interesting as a protagonist, for me - he does things that I wouldn't even comprehend doing.

    Yeah, true. That's what makes him BOND I guess. Just that as fans, those activities simply can't blur our humane side.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    I actually like Moore's performances in his first two films the most, strangely enough. Bond should tread that moral line, it's in the nature of his work. It doesn't mean we shouldn't criticise him, of course, from our more righteous point of view (on the contrary); but it's one of the things that makes him interesting as a protagonist, for me - he does things that I wouldn't even comprehend doing.

    I don't mind the ones where he's a bastard and a bit cruel (like the Rosie ones) but the ones where he's a sex pest (like the dinner with Goodnight) or a weird rapist (this Solitare scene) I'm not keen on. But generally give me Gilbert's version of Roger any day: it fitted him like a glove and he exuded confidence doing it.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Yeah, I'm certainly not advocating that he be a sex pest or in any way date-rapey, hence my vote for the Solitaire option in this round.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Isn't Bond actually keeping the kid from potential harm by pushing him out of the boat? He didn't know what would happen if the karate goons caught up with him and didn't want the kid caught up in that. Besides, he's wearing karate gear, where was he supposed to have money in the first place?

    I never felt Bond was rude to the MR bellhop guy. He just tossed out a line and that was it.

    The Dink thing was of it's time, most audiences back then likely thought nothing of it and leaving the unconscious Camille on the dock was to also keep her out of harm's way, likely.

    So that leaves us with the Solitaire thing. Bond was trying to use his powers of seduction to win her to his side. He didn't know the link that would mean the loss of her powers. Still, he literally stacked the deck and that's why it gets my vote as most ungentlemanly from these choices.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,417
    jobo wrote: »
    I am struck by how many potential nominees I would have liked to add to this list. They might have featured in awards already, but I'd still like to mention some of them, as they deserve some attention in regards to this topic:

    • Bond tells Quarrel to "fetch his shoes" in DN
    • Bond smacks Tania around in FRWL
    • Bond forces himself upon Pussy in GF
    • Bond blackmails Patricia for sexual sevices in TB, "I suppose my silence could have a prize"
    • Bond Strangles a girl with bikini straps in DAF
    • Bond beats Andrea in TMWTGG
    • Bond hides Goodnight in the closet all night while having sex with Andrea, also in TMWTGG
    • Bond is shocked that Dr Goodhead could be a woman in MR
    • Bond sleeps with Colombo's wife in FYEO
    • Bond sneaks in unanounced on a previous child prostitute and sex trade victim in SF

    Some of these are worse than any of the nominees in my opinion.

    Of the nominees I'll go with Solitaire

    Thanks for this list. Yes some have been dealt with in other categories. Shows you that the character has had his moments of not always doing the right thing. One small edit would be that I don't think Lisl was the wife of Columbo. I think they had more of Friends with Benefits thing, but I guess it's left ambiguous I suppose we could think she was married.

    You also missed the smack and arm twist to Tracy in OHMSS. :(
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2020 Posts: 6,287
    Solitaire seduction is creepy to me but still mitigated by the fact that she foresaw it when she first met Bond.

    TSWLM comes across as the most progressive in this list, and possibly GE. Shocking.

    Certainly the list goes on:

    DAF homophobia toward Wint and Kidd
    FYEO Bibi Dahl--"Do you know, Bibi, you're fickle?"
    OP "That'll keep you in curry"
    AVTAK I'm not sure, maybe "Ohh my car. Ohh!"
    TLD Rosika Miklos
    LTK references to "Orientals"
    TND Carver's moves
    TWINE "ass" line
    DAD surely a crime against humanity
    And SF and SP have their moments as well
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited July 2020 Posts: 7,110
    I'd like to vote-in one particularly ungentlemanly moment in an otherwise great film: when Bond recites that recipe of what would become the 'Vesper' he's extremely unfriendly to that waiter. No 'please' or 'thank you', doesn't even look at the poor guy. He acts so nouveau riche in that scene. I hate it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    thedove wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I am struck by how many potential nominees I would have liked to add to this list. They might have featured in awards already, but I'd still like to mention some of them, as they deserve some attention in regards to this topic:

    • Bond tells Quarrel to "fetch his shoes" in DN
    • Bond smacks Tania around in FRWL
    • Bond forces himself upon Pussy in GF
    • Bond blackmails Patricia for sexual sevices in TB, "I suppose my silence could have a prize"
    • Bond Strangles a girl with bikini straps in DAF
    • Bond beats Andrea in TMWTGG
    • Bond hides Goodnight in the closet all night while having sex with Andrea, also in TMWTGG
    • Bond is shocked that Dr Goodhead could be a woman in MR
    • Bond sleeps with Colombo's wife in FYEO
    • Bond sneaks in unanounced on a previous child prostitute and sex trade victim in SF

    Some of these are worse than any of the nominees in my opinion.

    Of the nominees I'll go with Solitaire

    Thanks for this list. Yes some have been dealt with in other categories. Shows you that the character has had his moments of not always doing the right thing. One small edit would be that I don't think Lisl was the wife of Columbo. I think they had more of Friends with Benefits thing, but I guess it's left ambiguous I suppose we could think she was married.

    You also missed the smack and arm twist to Tracy in OHMSS. :(

    To be honest I think Bond happily sleeping with Tracy in the casino as a repayment for bailing her out at the gambling table is way creepier than the smack! :)
  • R1s1ngs0nR1s1ngs0n France
    Posts: 2,148
    Boy scene from TMWTGG
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I'll go with the Solitare thing, which is pretty bad.

    Apart from Dink, the others never even registered for me as problematic in any way. The MR scene never stood out as anything, and the kid in TMWTGG just came off as a cute comedic scene. As skmeone pointed out, Bond pushes him back into the water he was already in, after the kid unexpectedly manages to earn Bond's facetious offer.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    TWMTGG
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,417
    Very interesting that we have a 2 scene race here and both are from Moore's first two films. I am surprised that leaving Camille at the dock unconscious doesn't seem to be earning more votes. I find it so jarring when he just hands her over the employee and keeps on walking.

    But all our scenes did get some nominees. I shall keep voting open for a bit longer and then declare our winner.
  • Posts: 2,160
    I always felt that Bond being a dick towards M throughout the vast majority of Spectre was completely out of character and entirely unnecessary.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,249
    I think the Solitaire thing is taken completely out of context. She knows what she's in for the moment he steps on the plane (not off, on!). She gets the same card right there and then, and she lies to Mr Big about it 'is it death?'. She wants out, and she knows what it does to her powers. So if anything she's consenting before Bond knows there's anything to consent to.
    Stacking the cards may look like trickery but it has no influence on her whatsoever. Bond doesn't believe in any powers at all, and the fun bit of LALD is that it keeps on playing with this: do those powers exist yes or no? There's no definitive answer. I admit it isn't a nice thing to do, but kalling it date rape is going way too far. She's hardly resisting now is she? Perhaps I'm don't undersstand religion that much but if your religion says jump off a roof, you don't doubt it and fight it at least a bit?

    At the same time Bond throws a kid in the water at the start of a high speed race. Now I don't know about you guys but the last place I want to be when boats are chasing eachother is in the water they're racing on. It isn't a fun moment and it's definately putting the kid in (mortal) danger.


  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2020 Posts: 16,359
    I think the Solitaire thing is taken completely out of context. She knows what she's in for the moment he steps on the plane (not off, on!). She gets the same card right there and then, and she lies to Mr Big about it 'is it death?'. She wants out, and she knows what it does to her powers. So if anything she's consenting before Bond knows there's anything to consent to.

    Seeing the future result of Bond tricking her doesn't make it any less of an exploitative trick. She doesn't believe in free will (consent): just the 'truth'/destiny that the cards tell.
    She does it because she believes that it's inevitable- the cards tell her that. She doesn't do it because she wants to.
    Stacking the cards may look like trickery but it has no influence on her whatsoever.

    You just have to watch the scene to see it does! :D
    There's no definitive answer. I admit it isn't a nice thing to do, but kalling it date rape is going way too far. She's hardly resisting now is she?

    That's not really what date rape is.
    'The perpetrator may use physical or psychological intimidation to force a victim to have sex against their will'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_rape
    Bond exploits her psychologically to get her into bed. If she believed she had a choice she wouldn't, but she doesn't believe that it's up to her. It's psychological intimidation.


  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,417
    Very interesting discussion chaps! I have always had some problems with the scene and feel that Moore makes it come off less creepy then it is. Not sure Connery, or any other actor could have made the trickery palpable like Roger did.

    Time for me to award the Klebbie to the least gentlemanly moment by our man Bond. And the Klebbie goes to...Bond stacks the deck against Solitaire and steals her powers! It received 12 votes.

    The other moments came in with the following:
    • Bond doesn't show paternal instincts and throws boy overboard from TMWTGG received 7 votes
    • Bond rescues Camille and then leaves her unconscious at the dock from QOS received 2 votes
    • Bond displays some homophobia to the bell hop in Brazil in MR received 2 votes
    • Bond slaps Dink and dispenses of her for some man talk from GF received 1 vote.

    Our next category comes to us from an academy member, @marc who suggested a Bondie for best escape! Our man has had his fair share of escapes from lots of interesting places and situations. So here is the list of nominees:
    • LALD Bond lines up the crocodiles to escape the "farm"
    • OHMSS Bond uses his pockets to escape the cable-car machinery room
    • TLD Bond escapes a prison in Afghanistan and finds himself no further ahead
    • GE Bond uses something that he doesn't take out of the room when he leaves in the train escape (with triangulation)
    • FYEO Bond scrapes by the coral and unties and escapes the situation at sea

    I took the liberty of adding a nominee! Otherwise this is Marc's list. So my dear academy members. Which one of these qualifies as Bond's best escape? The criteria can include, the brainpower and creativity to escape the jam, the danger level that Bond finds himself in. Is there a satisfying quip at the end? Which one is the best escape from Bond. These escapes are the small escapes. We will have a future category to capture those epic long chases and escapes that Bond has done over the films!
  • MeetBondMeetBond Mar-a-lago
    Posts: 27
    LALD crocodile escape without question. Exquisitely set up by Hamilton and paid off perfectly. Pure panache.
    Mallory wrote: »
    I always felt that Bond being a dick towards M throughout the vast majority of Spectre was completely out of character and entirely unnecessary.

    I always thought Bond incredibly rude to C in his first scene. C had done nothing wrong by that point. No wonder the 00 “programme” was for the chop. M was right to be furious with him.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    TLD Bond escapes a prison in Afghanistan and finds himself no further ahead
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,132
    A stunning list of great escapes. I’m torn between LALD and the crocs, or FYEO and the keel hauling. Both are wonderful. Well shot, well staged and full of tension and excitement. I think I’ll go FYEO and the keel hauling scene.
  • R1s1ngs0nR1s1ngs0n France
    Posts: 2,148
    LALD without any question.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    LALD. The escape is clever, original and outrageous! Pure cinematic Bond!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,359
    Yeah it's LALD all the way: stylish, exciting and inventive and a bonkers crazy dangerous stunt right on top of it! One of the all time best Bond moments.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 4,341
    Crocs in a line for me, please! LALD
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    LALD. It's slick, effortless, stylish, distinctive and suspenseful, because Bond is dealing with reptiles here....they won't listen to his witty lines. And George Martin's rendition of the Bond theme immediately after the escape, is very uplifting.
  • Posts: 7,507
    One more for LALD
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