The Craig era - back to the source?

edited May 2020 in Bond Movies Posts: 623
As I've previously pointed out, we've never been in a position to look at two Bond movie eras, with an equal number of films before.
Four Brosnan Bonds.
Four Craig Bonds.
And if it weren't for lockdown, we wouldn't be able to do that today, would we?
I started re-reading the novels in published order recently, and was again impressed how much of the original Casino Royale novel they used in the film. It's a much more faithful adaptation if a Bond novel than, say, Moonraker, or The Man With The Golden Gun. In fact, it may be the most faithfully adapted Bond Novel since OHMSS. Do you think?
That got me thinking about Fleming in the Craig era. You have to hand it to the script-writers, they've included quite a few nods towards Fleming in the four Craig Bonds. And for the life of me, I can't recall anything lifted directly from the books for exclusive use in the four Brosnan films. Am I just forgetting?
After Casino Royale, there was a nice inclusion of some dialogue from that book from Mathis, ("the heroes and the villians get mixed up"). And in Skyfall, the literary Bond was all over the film. Not so much in the plot, but the references to his parents, his childhood in Scotland, and even his parents graves were there, with the correct names which (I think) we found out first in the YOLT novel.
SPECTRE had links to a Fleming short story, (Octopussy), and Hildebrand had a name-check.
I net I've missed some, but I honestly can't think of a singular morsel that was a pure Fleming nod in the Brosnan Bonds. Plenty of nods to the movies, especially in DAD, ("this'll be your twentieth" etc).
Somewhere along the way, they decided to sprinkle a lot more Fleming in the mix. I wonder what Fleming morsels we'll get in No Time to Die?
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Comments

  • Posts: 7,653
    SF & SP contained nothing really Fleming, Blofeld being the foster brother was most certainly not Fleming but somebody being a total idiot.
    CR was somewhat faithfull, FYEO was a complete movie from several short stories by Fleming including a famous LALD scene so there was some stuff there.
    DAD is another Moonraker version updated so there is your Fleming.
    TWINE should have had both M & 007 dead and blaming them for a nuclear incident and feel a bit like Colonel Sun.
  • Posts: 623
    TWINE was actually more like a Benson novel, I can't remember which one. But it featured an old friend of M's, and her getting kidnapped. I think it was the novel that came out prior to the film. Coincidence? Could be.
    I did say SF and SP didn't include any plot, but there were plenty of direct references to Fleming's Bond that hadn't been in movies before.
    I never thought we'd see the graves of his parents in a Bond movie, for example.
  • Posts: 623
    ...I just thought of one unique Fleming Bond reference in Goldeneye. Travellian mentions Bond's parents dying in a skiing accident. His parents death was never mentioned in the movies before that, I believe.
  • Posts: 7,653
    True the graves did not add anything you could expect them existing and the house itself with it games keeper was a tad much, Bond was never that rich in the books, it was just a story they needed nothing to do with Fleming.
    For me capturing M & 007 and starting a nuclear accident does feel a tad like Colonel Sun the story, the baddie even wanted to torture 007.
  • Posts: 623
    It's been year since I read Colonel Sun. I remember it being a good read, and the Island, and the torture scene. Everyone remembers that!
  • Posts: 7,653
    I reread it last year and I found it less interesting as I remembered from reading it before, something I have not yet have with the Fleming novels.
  • Posts: 7,653
    FYEO the movie has FYEO & Risico as short story and a scene from LALD, so in my humble opinion reasonable amount of Fleming material
  • Posts: 7,653
    LTK has some of the LALD material not used before in its story which gives it a Fleming feeling.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Both movies have more real Fleming than SP & SF combined.
  • Posts: 623
    If you read my original post, I was talking about comparing the Craig and Brosnan 'eras'. I think there was a real effort to re-connect to Fleming with the latter four movies, in comparison to the former four movies.
    I don't disagree many of the pre-Brosnan movies used plot-lines from the books. I still think the most faithfull single-book adaptation, before CR, was OHMSS.
    That might change as I re-read them though. I've just finished Live and Let Die, and that kind of carries a basic gist with the movie. But it's not as faithful as CR, I don't think.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited May 2020 Posts: 4,521
    Spectre maintitle have Property Of A Lady symbol (and you can see it back in other moments in the movie.) and QOS maintitle Mr Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and also stand as symbol DC Bond a lot of people dying. Twine have link M and friends with a family, original M be friends with havelocks in FYEO what not be used for the movie because Bernard Lee died. Goldeneye is named to Flemings house on Jamaica

    Property Of A Lady symbol will be in NTTD and Bond wil visit Jamaica again.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I would say with Casino Royale it was back the source but from QOS onward it's drifted into a more melancholic soap opera.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    @Birdleson, I've been pretty busy these days and I've been on a bit of a Bond burnout as of late so I haven't had much to offer in terms of discussions. But I like to pop in when I can. :)
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited May 2020 Posts: 3,262
    Murdock wrote: »
    I would say with Casino Royale it was back the source but from QOS onward it's drifted into a more melancholic soap opera.

    ITA. I love CR and consider it one of the very best in the series(a FRWL/OHMSS/TLD-type entry for the 2000s) but I'm glad I came of Bond age back during a time when the 007 films were more standalone adventures.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Both GE and DAD have faint traces of MR in various ways, but I think that’s about the extent for the Brosnan era when it comes to adapting Fleming. Of course, Craig has the benefit of CR under his run, and from then on it’s various unused elements from the books like YOLT, TMWTGG, and OP, the presence of SPECTRE and Blofeld. Hildebrand was more of a nod that only fans of the novels would pick up on, otherwise it has no relation to the short story.
  • Posts: 7,653
    DAD had that foreign agent (MR plastic surgery / DAD gene sequencing) who was thoroughly infatuated with British culture and took his place within society and wanted to offer the world something special rocket / satelite and both were meant to cause mayhem and destruction. so faint traces would be putting it mildly.

    MR the movie has besides a rocket / shuttle and the characters name Drax far less in common, Dr Goodhead is the undercover agent not by MI5 but CIA instead of Gala Brand.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I say faint traces because what you describe is pretty much all there is of MR, from that point everything else in the film is unique to DAD (aside from the callbacks to earlier films). I would have loved the Blades club chapters adapted with Bond discovering how the villain cheats at cards and uses it against him, but we got a sword fight instead, which was admittedly pretty cool and refreshing compared to the usual boring Vic Armstrong action sequences.

    That's why I say it's faint in GE too, because it's really just partly the scarred villain's scheme of wanting to exact vengeance on England and the woman tinkering the coordinates of the weapon aiming towards the Atlantic ocean rather than London.

    Regarding Fleming traces in Craig's run, I do like the callback to Fleming Blofeld's origin in the TB novel where part of his backstory before founding SPECTRE was accumulating intelligence in order to make a profit, and the film basically expands on that concept with the even grander Nine Eyes scheme.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,427
    I’d say the whole crater base arrival in Spectre feels more like something directly from a Fleming novel than anything since CR. Stuff like the skull-heavy opening, little touches like the scorpion drinking game in Skyfall: that’s Fleming sort of stuff in a way the Brosnan films didn’t really go for.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I think there's definitely more Fleming in Craig's Bond films than in Brosnan's, but as Birdleson pointed out, much of it is of course superficial, like the Hildebrand thing, or the stuff about his parents.

    In terms of bringing Fleming's work directly to the screen, I don't think either era has too much on offer. DAD is definitely very reminiscent of the Moonraker novel (and the Moonraker film in other ways!), and CR obviously takes several plot points and beats from the novel. But in the case of the latter film, I think it's largely Flemingesque in ways as superficial as the Hildebrand reference referred to above.

    Here is Bond's mindset at the end of the CR novel:
    “He saw her now only as a spy. Their love and his grief were relegated to the boxroom of his mind. Later, perhaps they would be dragged out, dispassionately examined, and then bitterly thrust back with other sentimental baggage he would rather forget.”

    This is simply not anything like the Bond character presented in CR, and to some extent, QOS. Add in the physical brutishness and breaking into M's home, and the Bond of CR (particularly before the "Bond Begins" stuff and after Vesper's death) just isn't much like Fleming's character. It's a different film Bond going through the beats of Fleming's plot, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    I do think Bond's relationships with the broken women in his films is very, very Flemingesque, particularly Camille and Swann, as are some of the bizarre locations, like the hotel in QoS, Blofeld's crater base, or Silva's island. They're all very strange, but not impossible. I'm reminded of Spectreville, or Blofeld's death garden, or Dr No's island.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited May 2020 Posts: 4,247
    I've always thought EON were brave not to reference much of Fleming in the Brosnan era, or whether that was done inadvertently or they had more confidence in Brosnan's Bond.

    Then came Craig's Darker Bond and all of his films are Fleming-Laden, which is good, but one I still find surprising, considering he's already a great Bond. Maybe EON were trying to further cement his status as Bond. I wonder who needed Fleming's reference more though, Brosnan or Craig?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,427
    I think there's definitely more Fleming in Craig's Bond films than in Brosnan's, but as Birdleson pointed out, much of it is of course superficial

    Bond/Fleming ain't exactly deep stuff though, so I'm not sure how relevant that observation is!
    :D

    I do think you're right to say that Craig's Bond isn't Fleming's Bond: as you say, there's nothing wrong with that, and, if I'm honest I'd say he's actually more interesting!
    I do think Bond's relationships with the broken women in his films is very, very Flemingesque, particularly Camille and Swann, as are some of the bizarre locations, like the hotel in QoS, Blofeld's crater base, or Silva's island. They're all very strange, but not impossible. I'm reminded of Spectreville, or Blofeld's death garden, or Dr No's island.

    Yeah there's certainly more of an attempt to get the flavour of Fleming in these films than there is in the Brosnans. A bit more in the way of twisted, unlikely, but not fully fully outlandish pervertedness.
    And don't forget the nighttime tower block assassination in Skyfall: that's inspired by a sequence from the Casino Royale novel, and the whole setup there with a guy being sold a painting you can imagine would have taken a page or two from Fleming to show that whole subplot, the guy arriving at the building etc.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2020 Posts: 1,711
    mtm wrote: »

    Bond/Fleming ain't exactly deep stuff though, so I'm not sure how relevant that observation is!
    :D

    Oh, I'm well aware of that! Though a lot of fans may not agree with us there. But I wasn't referring to superficiality in the source material or adapted material, but in the way Fleming is used. "Hildebrand Rarities" is obviously a more superficial "adaptation" of Fleming when compared to the OHMSS film.

    In any case, when a lot of fans talk about Fleming, I think they're just referring to something being "dark", "gritty", "violent", etc, without really thinking about what Fleming's books are actually like.
    mtm wrote: »
    A bit more in the way of twisted, unlikely, but not fully fully outlandish pervertedness.

    That's well put!
  • Posts: 623
    There are lots of similarities in plot lines, and every time this topic comes up I see people reaching for links. "He uses a telescope to see the ship in such and such a book, and in the film he uses a telescope when he's on the boat" etc. A lot of this could be put down to coincidence.
    I'm more interested in proper homages to the source material, like his parents graves, his Scottish roots, or the proper recipe for his martini. These are definite things that could only be gleaned by going to the books. I'd much rather the series throw in these occasional scraps, than get it stupidly wrong like in TSWLM, when they had Bond studying at the wrong college.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Fleming's Bond is definitely Dark, Gritty & Violent & he isn't all that calm & relaxed as the films often depict. the Novels are definitely darker. His Scar & all....I don't think stuffs like these would appeal Cinematically. If they really want to follow the Books, we might even see a more Broken Bond than Craig's Bond.... but then casual Bond fans might not understand what's going on.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Fleming's Bond is definitely Dark, Gritty & Violent & he isn't all that calm & relaxed as the films often depict. the Novels are definitely darker. His Scar & all....I don't think stuffs like these would appeal Cinematically. If they really want to follow the Books, we might even see a more Broken Bond than Craig's Bond.... but then casual Bond fans might not understand what's going on.

    If he hunts pirate treasure, battles a giant squid, and communicates with a living statue, as in the dark gritty novels, casual fans will definitely be confused!
  • Posts: 623
    I think as far as the character is concerned, they'll never get as close as Connery in From Russia With Love. The book Bond was quite statesman-like when in other countries. Bond's relationship with Kerim Bay was transferred excellently on-screen. You don't get the feeling that Craig's angry, pent-up Bond could ever live the life of an English ambassador. Fleming's Bond was required to 'act the part of a very rich man' when abroad. I get the feeling Craig's Bond isn't enough of a ... well, snob, for want of a better word.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    \
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Fleming's Bond is definitely Dark, Gritty & Violent & he isn't all that calm & relaxed as the films often depict. the Novels are definitely darker. His Scar & all....I don't think stuffs like these would appeal Cinematically. If they really want to follow the Books, we might even see a more Broken Bond than Craig's Bond.... but then casual Bond fans might not understand what's going on.

    If he hunts pirate treasure, battles a giant squid, and communicates with a living statue, as in the dark gritty novels, casual fans will definitely be confused!

    To be fair, nobody is claiming the Fleming novels are realistic. They have a dark, gritty, and violent streak to them, but they can also be outlandish with a touch of the benign bizarre. CR may be the most grounded of the novels, but in the end it's about Bond being sanctioned by the government to clean out Le Chiffre of his money on a game of chance, as well as risking putting THEIR money into the hands of the enemy. That's RIDICULOUS, but it's part of the fantasy.
  • Posts: 623
    CR may be the most grounded of the novels, but in the end it's about Bond being sanctioned by the government to clean out Le Chiffre of his money on a game of chance, as well as risking putting THEIR money into the hands of the enemy. That's RIDICULOUS, but it's part of the fantasy.

    You don't think it's a very good plan, do you?

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,427
    shamanimal wrote: »
    There are lots of similarities in plot lines, and every time this topic comes up I see people reaching for links. "He uses a telescope to see the ship in such and such a book, and in the film he uses a telescope when he's on the boat" etc. A lot of this could be put down to coincidence.
    I'm more interested in proper homages to the source material, like his parents graves, his Scottish roots, or the proper recipe for his martini. These are definite things that could only be gleaned by going to the books. I'd much rather the series throw in these occasional scraps, than get it stupidly wrong like in TSWLM, when they had Bond studying at the wrong college.

    I'm not sure you'd come away from a Fleming book thinking the important things are little facts like where his parents are buried rather than the tone and style of the whole piece that you get from something like the crater base or scorpion drinking game or spearfishing in Jamaica. Fleming's books are more about the feeling and world he builds than they are just dry facts. Dalton's Aston Martin V8 is exactly what Fleming's Bond would have driven in the 80s, despite the fact the badge doesn't say 'Bentley' as Fleming wrote.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2020 Posts: 16,427
    shamanimal wrote: »
    I think as far as the character is concerned, they'll never get as close as Connery in From Russia With Love. The book Bond was quite statesman-like when in other countries. Bond's relationship with Kerim Bay was transferred excellently on-screen. You don't get the feeling that Craig's angry, pent-up Bond could ever live the life of an English ambassador. Fleming's Bond was required to 'act the part of a very rich man' when abroad. I get the feeling Craig's Bond isn't enough of a ... well, snob, for want of a better word.

    Oh I don't know, they've done snob pretty well with him. I liked him walking straight out of the shabby hotel in QoS- probably the best moment in that movie.
    \
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Fleming's Bond is definitely Dark, Gritty & Violent & he isn't all that calm & relaxed as the films often depict. the Novels are definitely darker. His Scar & all....I don't think stuffs like these would appeal Cinematically. If they really want to follow the Books, we might even see a more Broken Bond than Craig's Bond.... but then casual Bond fans might not understand what's going on.

    If he hunts pirate treasure, battles a giant squid, and communicates with a living statue, as in the dark gritty novels, casual fans will definitely be confused!

    To be fair, nobody is claiming the Fleming novels are realistic. They have a dark, gritty, and violent streak to them, but they can also be outlandish with a touch of the benign bizarre. CR may be the most grounded of the novels, but in the end it's about Bond being sanctioned by the government to clean out Le Chiffre of his money on a game of chance, as well as risking putting THEIR money into the hands of the enemy. That's RIDICULOUS, but it's part of the fantasy.

    Yeah I love how batshit crazy that plot is. And that's kind of why you can't really write a new Fleming-ish plot: his were mental and no-one would take you seriously if you wrote a new film like that! :D Gambling a baddie to death?!

    It's a bit like that 'Murder on Wheels' part he wrote that made it into Trigger Mortis: Bond has to beat the Russians at car racing because... erm.. they want a propaganda victory..? Or something..
    :D
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