Will Bond, as we know him, survive today's culture?

13567

Comments

  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited April 2021 Posts: 13,789
    First they came for Mr. Potatohead, and I did not speak out—because I was not concerned with Mr. Potatohead.


  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,469
    mtm wrote: »
    Thrasos wrote: »
    Sure Dems in the U.S. want to try to limit gun violence--emphasis on try--but gun ownership will still be a reality.

    You mean limit gun violence in films? Because surely everyone wants to limit it in real life! :)
    Gun ownership in real life rather than films, presumably.
    I meant, try to limit gun violence in real life, not in films, though I don't know what measures the film industry may be wanting to take against depiction of gun use in films. To explain, I said "try" to limit gun violence because, while we can agree that laws can outlaw certain aspects of gun use, I see the root cause as being the evil in men's hearts, so to speak, or rather personality issues that result in misuse. And ultimately to eliminate gun violence, it means evolving to a place where people don't act out of rage and hate, and I think it's fair to say that many people in the world are not there yet.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Oh okay: but surely it can’t just be the Dems that want to try and stop that? I don’t live there so I don’t know.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Like I said before, I think gun violence usually only becomes a problem in media if the context of the violence relates too closely to something that's happened in real life. I think sometimes if this has happened the media has been delayed or edited. It's usually not met with much controversy unless it's extremely distasteful.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Sure, we’re talking about what might happen in future though.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited April 2021 Posts: 5,970
    mtm wrote: »
    Sure, we’re talking about what might happen in future though.
    I don't know. With more media and more video games continuing to be successful, especially with things like John Wick, Mission Impossible, Red Dead Redemption, Hitman, and GTA, I can't see the violence we talk about being changed - even if just on posters and stills.

    I mean look at No Time to Die, if anything they've upped the violence. With Nomi and Paloma both carrying guns in their posters, as well as Primo and Bond himself, whereas the Skyfall posters were quite tame if I remember rightly. So you'd expect that to be vice versa considering the way the world and the internet has changed since.

    I think there are more important changes in media that need to be made than guns.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    There have been a couple of NTTD posters where Bond doesn’t have a gun, one entirely gun-less.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited April 2021 Posts: 5,970
    mtm wrote: »
    There have been a couple of NTTD posters where Bond doesn’t have a gun, one entirely gun-less.
    Are we talking about the tuxedo teaser poster and Bond and Madeleine in the car? If so, one is just showing you a different aspect of the character and the other (one of the coolest of the posters) still hints at the violence due to bullet holes in the car. Either way, the ones with guns still outweigh the ones without.

    And Casino Royale also had posters without guns. Again, I just think given the political climate you'd think things would be even the slightest bit different already, in the context of violence in media, so seeing as they haven't, I can't see anything changing for a long time.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 2021 Posts: 1,711
    This franchise has a gun in its logo.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    This franchise has a gun its logo.
    +1
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Denbigh wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    There have been a couple of NTTD posters where Bond doesn’t have a gun, one entirely gun-less.
    Are we talking about the tuxedo teaser poster and Bond and Madeleine in the car? If so, one is just showing you a different aspect of the character and the other (one of the coolest of the posters) still hints at the violence due to bullet holes in the car. Either way, the ones with guns still outweigh the ones without.

    There's the white montage one:

    no-time-to-die-poster-2.jpg

    And it's not about violence, so it's not really a case of trying to catch me out. I'm just specifically talking about making guns look cool (e.g the Spectre poster) because that's what we're talking about.

    I'm not even saying it's something they're doing, just something which may happen in future and demonstrating how it wouldn't really change much.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited April 2021 Posts: 5,970
    Honestly I’m not accusing you of anything just giving my opinion in the discussion. I say violence cause it usually comes under that when we’re discussing guns “controversially”. Also, with that poster, whilst Bond isn’t carrying, Nomi, Safin, and Paloma are, with Bond in a gun-firing Aston. And I know, I’m just saying why I think it probably won’t.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2021 Posts: 16,382
    The Aston isn't firing guns, and you're still trying to catch me out, but to reiterate because you don't seem to be following what I'm saying: I'm talking about Bond making guns look cool. I'm not talking about the presence of guns.

    eg:
    51C63ZDASwL._AC_SL1024_.jpg

    He looks cool there, no? He's not in a dangerous situation, he's just doing a cool pose with a gun looking suave.
    And I'm saying it's something which might happen in future if it's felt that that sort thing makes gun ownership look cool, and I could understand it if it is.
  • Posts: 1,859
    I'm less concerned about the use of guns in the series than i am about his hedonistic attitudes regarding his day to day pleasures that reflect someone who knows "everyday may be his last". Why would he give up smoking, and other things, because it's the culturally acceptable thing to do? Unless it was imposed on the character by outside forces.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    There was a time, I'd have answered No, to the question but given the
    current attitude to so many things, and people's need to be " Outraged"
    or "Offended" mixed with " Cancel Culture ". I can see Not just Bond but
    many franchises disappearing over time. I really hope it doesn't happen,
    but it could.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 618
    The main problem right now?
    People who are apoplectically offended because other people find their actions/statements offensive.

    Here in the States, the biggest practitioners of "Cancel Culture" are the ones complaining the loudest about it.

    In the modern (Internet) age, Cancel Culture began with what was done to the country music group The Dixie Chicks in 2003... Another more recent example is NFL player Colin Kaepernick.

    But in the past, American "Cancel Culture" has tried to eliminate:
    Jazz
    Rock 'n' Roll
    Comic books
    Horror films
    Gay characters in films/TV shows/commercials
    The Teletubbies

    The list is endless and it's been going on here for longer than I've been alive, and I'm almost 60.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,469
    mtm wrote: »
    ...I'm talking about Bond making guns look cool. I'm not talking about the presence of guns...And I'm saying it's something which might happen in future if it's felt that that sort thing makes gun ownership look cool, and I could understand it if it is.
    Yes, it'll be interesting to see how this gun issue plays out in society. I think you're right about how EON and so many other film producers play up the coolness element to attract ticket buyers. If I had to bet, I'd say even posters showing guns probably won't change too much, and one reason I think this is this. Sometimes you hear about a "good guy with a gun" who's at the scene of a shooting, often law enforcement, and they neutralized the threat before it might've caused more casualties. I think we'll continue to need good guys with guns, symbolized here by Bond, as long as there is the threat of evil acts by some individuals and even some world governments, and personally I think we'll see people support this attitude, outweighing what I might term societal sensitivities.
    delfloria wrote: »
    I'm less concerned about the use of guns in the series than i am about his hedonistic attitudes regarding his day to day pleasures that reflect someone who knows "everyday may be his last". Why would he give up smoking, and other things, because it's the culturally acceptable thing to do? Unless it was imposed on the character by outside forces.
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Thrasos wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    ...I'm talking about Bond making guns look cool. I'm not talking about the presence of guns...And I'm saying it's something which might happen in future if it's felt that that sort thing makes gun ownership look cool, and I could understand it if it is.
    Yes, it'll be interesting to see how this gun issue plays out in society. I think you're right about how EON and so many other film producers play up the coolness element to attract ticket buyers. If I had to bet, I'd say even posters showing guns probably won't change too much, and one reason I think this is this. Sometimes you hear about a "good guy with a gun" who's at the scene of a shooting, often law enforcement, and they neutralized the threat before it might've caused more casualties. I think we'll continue to need good guys with guns, symbolized here by Bond, as long as there is the threat of evil acts by some individuals and even some world governments, and personally I think we'll see people support this attitude, outweighing what I might term societal sensitivities.
    delfloria wrote: »
    I'm less concerned about the use of guns in the series than i am about his hedonistic attitudes regarding his day to day pleasures that reflect someone who knows "everyday may be his last". Why would he give up smoking, and other things, because it's the culturally acceptable thing to do? Unless it was imposed on the character by outside forces.
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.

    Severine smokes.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,469
    Yes! You're right. It suited her. Thank you for that.
  • Posts: 2,163
    Bond has survived for 60 years in film, longer in books. I see no reason why the series wont continue to evolve and thrive.

    Twitter and other social media is not reflective of the wider population and many people tend to take these platforms as gospel for everything. Just echo chambers. Re-enforces your view either way.

    Ultimately, if people dont like it, they can always choose not to watch it. Choice is a great thing, aint it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Mallory wrote: »
    Bond has survived for 60 years in film, longer in books. I see no reason why the series wont continue to evolve and thrive.

    Twitter and other social media is not reflective of the wider population and many people tend to take these platforms as gospel for everything. Just echo chambers. Re-enforces your view either way.

    Ultimately, if people dont like it, they can always choose not to watch it. Choice is a great thing, aint it.

    It really is, but not everyone agrees.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Thrasos wrote: »
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.

    Well, I for one would mind if he smokes. The thing is--and I suspect this is the chief reason Bond hasn't smoked since 1989--smoking just doesn't look cool anymore. It's generally only seen now to indicate villainy or creepiness, or to remind the audience that the film takes place in a different era.

    The point about the continued popularity of smoking in loser regions of the US like Kentucky really makes the point. In most of America (a key market, to put it mildly), smoking conveys about the same level of sophistication as does a MAGA hat, another Kentucky staple I wouldn't wish to see near James Bond.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2021 Posts: 18,270
    Thrasos wrote: »
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.

    Well, I for one would mind if he smokes. The thing is--and I suspect this is the chief reason Bond hasn't smoked since 1989--smoking just doesn't look cool anymore. It's generally only seen now to indicate villainy or creepiness, or to remind the audience that the film takes place in a different era.

    The point about the continued popularity of smoking in loser regions of the US like Kentucky really makes the point. In most of America (a key market, to put it mildly), smoking conveys about the same level of sophistication as does a MAGA hat, another Kentucky staple I wouldn't wish to see near James Bond.

    The thing is Bond has smoked in the films since Licence to Kill in 1989. The Brosnan Bond smokes a cigar in Die Another Day in 2002. Now I know cigars aren't the same thing as cigarettes but it is still smoking and it is still a tobacco product. In fact, one large cigar like the one Brosnan smokes in the film contains about as much nicotine as a twenty pack of cigarettes does. So the old saying about cigars being safer than cigarettes really doesn't wash. 🚬
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Thrasos wrote: »
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.

    Well, I for one would mind if he smokes. The thing is--and I suspect this is the chief reason Bond hasn't smoked since 1989--smoking just doesn't look cool anymore. It's generally only seen now to indicate villainy or creepiness, or to remind the audience that the film takes place in a different era.

    The point about the continued popularity of smoking in loser regions of the US like Kentucky really makes the point. In most of America (a key market, to put it mildly), smoking conveys about the same level of sophistication as does a MAGA hat, another Kentucky staple I wouldn't wish to see near James Bond.

    The thing is Bond has smoked in the films since Licence to Kill in 1989. The Brosnan Bond smokes a cigar in Die Another Day in 2002. Now I know cigars aren't the same thing as cigarettes but it is still smoking and it is still a tobacco product and one cigar contains as much nicotine as a twenty pack of cigarettes does. So the old saying about cigars being safer than cigarettes really doesn't wash. 🚬

    Yeah, I'm not talking about health concerns.

    But indeed, cigars are not the same thing as cigarettes. Cigars don't look like a cheap, seedy addiction.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Thrasos wrote: »
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.

    Well, I for one would mind if he smokes. The thing is--and I suspect this is the chief reason Bond hasn't smoked since 1989--smoking just doesn't look cool anymore. It's generally only seen now to indicate villainy or creepiness, or to remind the audience that the film takes place in a different era.

    The point about the continued popularity of smoking in loser regions of the US like Kentucky really makes the point. In most of America (a key market, to put it mildly), smoking conveys about the same level of sophistication as does a MAGA hat, another Kentucky staple I wouldn't wish to see near James Bond.

    The thing is Bond has smoked in the films since Licence to Kill in 1989. The Brosnan Bond smokes a cigar in Die Another Day in 2002. Now I know cigars aren't the same thing as cigarettes but it is still smoking and it is still a tobacco product and one cigar contains as much nicotine as a twenty pack of cigarettes does. So the old saying about cigars being safer than cigarettes really doesn't wash. 🚬

    Yeah, I'm not talking about health concerns.

    But indeed, cigars are not the same thing as cigarettes. Cigars don't look like a cheap, seedy addiction.

    Yes, granted, cigars do look more sophisticated but as I said above surely smoking is smoking whether it's by means of a cigarette, cigar or pipe. It all boils down to much the same thing I feel.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 2021 Posts: 1,711
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Thrasos wrote: »
    You raise several interesting ideas. About smoking, though I don't smoke, I wouldn't mind if Bond does. There are so many film noir movies where the characters smoke, but they never made me want to. A lot of people still smoke cigarettes. The CDC says in 2018, 25% of people in West Virginia were smokers; Kentucky and Arkansas 23%. In 2014, almost 20% of the world's population smoked cigarettes, and the U.S. is way down the list on that. The French have an image of being big smokers, but many countries are ahead of France on cigarette consumption per person. Luxembourg, Belarus, Belgium are near the top. And the last time I remember a character smoking in a Bond film was Felix Leiter in QoS, a cigar.

    Well, I for one would mind if he smokes. The thing is--and I suspect this is the chief reason Bond hasn't smoked since 1989--smoking just doesn't look cool anymore. It's generally only seen now to indicate villainy or creepiness, or to remind the audience that the film takes place in a different era.

    The point about the continued popularity of smoking in loser regions of the US like Kentucky really makes the point. In most of America (a key market, to put it mildly), smoking conveys about the same level of sophistication as does a MAGA hat, another Kentucky staple I wouldn't wish to see near James Bond.

    The thing is Bond has smoked in the films since Licence to Kill in 1989. The Brosnan Bond smokes a cigar in Die Another Day in 2002. Now I know cigars aren't the same thing as cigarettes but it is still smoking and it is still a tobacco product and one cigar contains as much nicotine as a twenty pack of cigarettes does. So the old saying about cigars being safer than cigarettes really doesn't wash. 🚬

    Yeah, I'm not talking about health concerns.

    But indeed, cigars are not the same thing as cigarettes. Cigars don't look like a cheap, seedy addiction.

    Yes, granted, cigars do look more sophisticated but as I said above surely smoking is smoking whether it's by means of a cigarette, cigar or pipe. It all boils down to much the same thing I feel.

    Well the sophistication is the point, as I've tried to make clear. Smoking is not smoking just as drinking is not drinking. Bond will always drink, but you'll never see him drink a two-liter bottle of Diamond White Cider. Nor will you see him smoke a cigarette again. Maybe M with a pipe or Bond or Felix with a cigar, but cigs will be left for your Xenias and Severinnes.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    We'll see Bond smoke again in the films. I will bet money on it.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    QBranch wrote: »
    We'll see Bond smoke again in the films. I will bet money on it.

    No way.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited April 2021 Posts: 8,216
    Yeah, I think that time has come and gone.

    As far as sophistication goes....

    Smoking certainly was sophisticated once - a sign of status depending on what you smoked. But nobody gets their cigarettes hand rolled and tailored to their tastes from tobacco shops anymore. Plenty of people still use cigarette cases (I used to, five years off them now), which is an illusion of grandeur, as you're still putting pretty low-grade products into them these days.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited April 2021 Posts: 1,711
    peter wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    We'll see Bond smoke again in the films. I will bet money on it.

    No way.

    Don't be so dismissive! Why, I can picture the scene now:

    Bond is outside in MI6's designated smoking area, rocking a safari suit and flirting with a rotund woman in heavy makeup who works in the canteen. When he sees Tanner coming over, he dismisses her with a wink and a slap on the arse, and the two friends puff away on their fags, talking about how terrible the Beatles are.

    The purists in the audience will love it!
Sign In or Register to comment.