Will Bond, as we know him, survive today's culture?

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    QBranch wrote: »
    We'll see Bond smoke again in the films. I will bet money on it.

    I don't want to see your money go up in smoke. :)
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    If history has proven anything James Bond will always survive. There might be the occasional hiatus but he always comes back
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited April 2021 Posts: 13,789
    OO7 smoking would be a killer final scene for a Bond actor. It wouldn't be about sophistication at this point.

    3E0FF3A58436FC66B57FABCDA8C01B344F5044FD

  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Perhaps he could whip out a Vape Pen :D
  • Isn't there an NTTD photo of Bond smoking a cigar at his Jamaican home?
  • Posts: 2,163
    Isn't there an NTTD photo of Bond smoking a cigar at his Jamaican home?

    Sure is ☺️

    b5bcf92c35e5a2316f2173587f8d1950.jpg

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Does Daniel Craig himself still smoke? Or did he kick the habit?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    I thought that was Craig between filming scenes, still it makes sense if it's in the film.

    There are instances of sympathetic characters smoking.

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  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    That's Bond smoking a cigar in the film, not just Craig in between takes. A prop cigar was made for the film.
  • Posts: 2,163
    Does Daniel Craig himself still smoke? Or did he kick the habit?

    I think he stopped around the time of CR.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I thought that was Craig between filming scenes, still it makes sense if it's in the film.

    There are instances of sympathetic characters smoking.

    tumblr_mhb0wkonGP1qz9d64o1_400.gif

    Yes, a seedy character who works with the villain and is pretending not to he sympathetic.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Mallory wrote: »
    Does Daniel Craig himself still smoke? Or did he kick the habit?

    I think he stopped around the time of CR.

    Thanks. I thought as much. He used to be quite a heavy smoker.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Absolutely a sympathetic character is my thinking, regarding Sévérine. That point is very quickly introduced.

    The point of smoking a cigar in Cuba and cigarettes in other circumstances is to show enjoyment of those vices. Or with the cigarette, many times as a release for stress. I'm not a smoker, but I relish Bond indulging in those along with martinis, red meat, and other items.

  • Posts: 1,917
    I can understand Bond not smoking as a sign of the times. It hasn't really bothered me that was eliminated, I just don't like to see the character as being a victim of PC and cancel culture. It's a small concession, but when you start to take away things, it begins to then chip away at what makes him unique until he becomes as unidentifiable as any variety of action heroes.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I can understand Bond not smoking as a sign of the times. It hasn't really bothered me that was eliminated, I just don't like to see the character as being a victim of PC and cancel culture. It's a small concession, but when you start to take away things, it begins to then chip away at what makes him unique until he becomes as unidentifiable as any variety of action heroes.

    I don't really follow this though: if you can understand the smoking being taken away then why would you also not like it?

    I also agree with others that smoking a cigar isn't the same as smoking cigarettes. One is an occasional indulgent luxury, the other is an addiction which looks a bit sad now (hence Severine being shown smoking: it actually helps to portray her character as looking desperate and nervous). I'm happy with Bond not smoking cigarettes any more, I have no objection to him enjoying a cigar on his veranda looking out to sea.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,859
    Lots here on smoking....................... what about Bond's "Any woman he wants he'll get"? Another part of the male fantasy that is part of the Bond mythos.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited April 2021 Posts: 13,789
    That may have already changed. Point to QOS (Bond doesn't get Camille), SF (Bond doesn't get Moneypenny).

    There's also Fleming's example of Gala Brand in Moonraker.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited April 2021 Posts: 5,970
    I mean to me, the Bond "can get any woman" thing is the easiest thing to change, and has been the easiest to change - besides some weird moments that were easy to fix (looking at you Severine on that boat). Anyway, Bond can still be appealing and attractive, it's just making sure that it's clear that he's not doing it in an awkward or predatory way, and that the female characters want to sleep with him too.

    I've always said, Skyfall needed a scene between Severine in her robe waiting and Bond approaching in the shower, where she knows he's there and they drink together before Severine initiates the shower scene. I know there's some who don't have a problem with it, but I think just that idea alone would've avoided some of the controversies that came out after that sequence.

    I also agree that the public conscious has kind of created this parody of James Bond that presents this all-encompassing idea that the Bond films are extremely sexist, so some of the progression that has been made sometimes goes unnoticed - but the franchise is also guilty of birthing the issue by itself.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    That may have already changed. Point to QOS (Bond doesn't get Camille), SF (Bond doesn't get Moneypenny).

    There's also Fleming's example of Gala Brand in Moonraker.

    Yes, and the ending of Fleming's Moonraker is definitely where they got the idea for that ending in QoS my view.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    delfloria wrote: »
    Lots here on smoking....................... what about Bond's "Any woman he wants he'll get"? Another part of the male fantasy that is part of the Bond mythos.

    That changed years ago. Bond 'turns' a lesbian in the third film in the series: that hasn't aged well, and has looked a bit wrong for a couple of decades too!
  • Posts: 5,993
    To the point where Antony Horowitz turned her back. Too quickly, IMO.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Yeah, when Bond turns a lesbian she stays turned :D
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Denbigh wrote: »
    I mean to me, the Bond "can get any woman" thing is the easiest thing to change, and has been the easiest to change - besides some weird moments that were easy to fix (looking at you Severine on that boat). Anyway, Bond can still be appealing and attractive, it's just making sure that it's clear that he's not doing it in an awkward or predatory way, and that the female characters want to sleep with him too.

    I've always said, Skyfall needed a scene between Severine in her robe waiting and Bond approaching in the shower, where she knows he's there and they drink together before Severine initiates the shower scene. I know there's some who don't have a problem with it, but I think just that idea alone would've avoided some of the controversies that came out after that sequence.

    I also agree that the public conscious has kind of created this parody of James Bond that presents this all-encompassing idea that the Bond films are extremely sexist, so some of the progression that has been made sometimes goes unnoticed - but the franchise is also guilty of birthing the issue by itself.

    Kind of like how I'm fairly sure smoking has been phased out for reasons other than "political correctness" (smoking looks like a loser habit nowadays), I think the changes to Bond's womanizing has also (mostly) not been a result of PC culture.

    You can see from both the semi-controversial Severine scene in Skyfall and the somehow-not-at-all-controversial scene with Lucia in Spectre that there's been no sign of fear from the producers in how they portray Bond's behavior with women. (I don't have any problem with the Severine scene, as it contains the fairly standard cinematic exposition with regard to consent)

    I think the main reason for any change we have seen is simply that the producers are trying to make better movies with more interesting characters. Having Bond bonk hotel staff as a coda to an exposition scene is not something you're going to find in a film Sam Mendes, Daniel Craig, or Barbara Broccoli is interested in making. The corny casual sex stuff is mostly as dated as smoking.

    Incidentally, I assume we'd all be aware here that except for OHMSS, Bond doesn't have more than one woman (if that) in any of the books. You don't even have to talk about Gala Brand as an exception--the rule is one per book.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Where Bond learnt his Technique :D
  • DeathToSpies84DeathToSpies84 Newton-le-Willows, England
    Posts: 257
    Where Bond learnt his Technique :D

    The late and great Rik Mayall :))
  • Posts: 1,859
    Yes, the Bond of the books IS much more monogamous than the film character though the Craig and Dalton era reflected that trait rather well. Thank goodness most of the book Bond's racism stayed in the novels. As the film Bond shifts with the times it will be interesting to see whether or not NTTD takes a hit in some areas considering how vocal groups can be these days.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    I'd be quite happy for Bond to be monogamous for each individual film going forward. Just because he can charm his way into anyone's bed doesn't mean he has to at every opportunity, I guess.
  • edited April 2021 Posts: 1,859
    I'd be quite happy for Bond to be monogamous for each individual film going forward. Just because he can charm his way into anyone's bed doesn't mean he has to at every opportunity, I guess.

    What's the fun in that. This is a good example as to how the attitudes of the fans have shifted over the years as well.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    delfloria wrote: »
    I'd be quite happy for Bond to be monogamous for each individual film going forward. Just because he can charm his way into anyone's bed doesn't mean he has to at every opportunity, I guess.

    What's the fun in that. This is a good example as to how the attitudes of the fans have shifted over the years as well.

    As long as the stories are good, does it really matter if he shags two or three or four women? If you want fun, do that kind of thing yourself! :)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Spectre had three, in any case, which is probably slightly above the series average.
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