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either rumour or haven't happened.
Lots of people have a really tight preconception of what Bond is or what he should do, even despite there being plenty of times when it hasn't been that in the past and they happily accept those old films. 'But that's different' they cry...
my favourite Character. Then over time, I learned to relax and learnt that the Producers
seemed to want the series to be successful and make money, as apparently Showbusiness is a Business .
I've read so many bad Fan ideas for Bond ( even my own ) I'm glad we have people in charge that know what they're doing and can ignore some crazy fan ideas.
So Bond has left the service for quite a time. So obviously his number would be given to a replacement agent. "00"s have to be the best, and if the Best is a Black lady Then she deserves the number. After all how many other "00" have been killed. Do some think they weren't replaced , even the lyrics to " You know my Name " states ....
Arm yourself because no-one else here will save you
The odds will betray you
And I will replace you
You can't deny the prize it may never fulfill you
It longs to kill you
Are you willing to die?
Only my Opinion but I think both Barbara and Michael have done a tremendous job of
making Bond even more successful, and should get a bit more credit and a bit less
" Attitude " directed at them. After all if you don't evolve, you Die.
I'm not sure it's necessary to imply that these people are racists. As you point out yourself, many of the same people got grumpy about Bond being blond(ish), and they likely do not harbor any negative feelings towards blondes generally.
I think Nomi as 007 is a clever, almost cheeky, way to address provocative clickbait headlines of recent years regarding the casting of the next Bond. I think it's great. But if someone is annoyed about the almost certainly reactionary decision to cast a black woman as 007, and the zeitgeist-pleasing scenes in which she will likely repeatedly show up James Bond, it's understandable enough. Not wanting a blond James Bond is understandable enough.
I think sometimes they certainly are. There's been a strong negative reaction in certain places to Lashana Lynch, with stuff like accusing her of exploiting the 007 thing in interviews (whereas she's never mentioned it once that I can see): sometimes you just have to face up to these things. There's no point in shying away from it.
Surely you can't say that none of the reaction has been racist?
I would hope those aren't the main reasons they've done it, but I agree it can't do any harm to make a few 'the new 007 is a lady' headlines and promote the film. But to be honest if she is (and I agree there's not much doubt, but it's still not 100% certain) I think it's more that it's just dramatic and ironic in the film itself to have James Bond find himself replaced by a woman, it's just a nice little plot.
Not sure what you mean here. You mean a few moments like Anya or Miranda Frost (or countless other Bond girls) getting the better of Bond in a bit of repartee? Why would any Bond fans not be able to cope with those? They've been running through the films for decades.
And no, you say 'if someone is annoyed about a black woman cast as 007 it's understandable enough' as if it's self-explanatory. It's not understandable to me: it's just a fictional title in a movie. It's like being annoyed a black guy plays the US President in a film - there aren't many reasonable reasons for being annoyed at that.
I would recommend none of these people ever watch the 1967 Casino Royale if the idea of different people taking the 007 mantle upsets them. At one point there's even a dog 007! :D
Turned out to be completely hollow though. Twice! :)
No, I can't say that. I also don't know for sure that none of the "blonde Bond" critics don't hate blondes. But responding to the (knee-jerk) reactions of some grumpy people with your own knee-jerk suggestion that they're racists or sexists is the sort of uncharitable treatment those people complain about. You said yourself that you'd "be willing to bet in five years' time those people will still be Bond fans and still watching the new films", so unless you think these people will stop being racist in five years time, you seem to already realize that the issue for most of these people indeed isn't prejudicial in origin. People may not like what they see as reactionary changes to their beloved franchise, right or wrong.
And here the rather important word "reactionary" is excised from a quote such that I look a bit more racist/sexist.
If casting decisions are made in a reactionary way, I think it can be annoying. I've never seen Rogue One, but from the trailer, the casting decisions look very irritating. One can see the corporate box-ticking memo behind the perfect diversity. The same goes for the other Disney Star Wars films to a lesser degree, and of course they aren't bold enough to make the black man a lead or give any depth to the female lead. And the Asian character in Rogue One is a martial artist.
(I know that insisting one is not a racist is an apparent telltale sign that someone is, but I'd be fine with Rogue One having zero white characters.)
The problem is more irritating for me when certain characters in very recent films/series seem to have a form of plot armor. When I watched (and enjoyed) The Expanse, it was frequently too easy to make certain predictions based on the race or gender of the character. An incompetent female ship mechanic is being trained by her male colleagues? There's no way that's what's actually going on--she must be a terrorist or something. And sure enough she is.
A recent and likely temporary phenomenon, but I find it annoying, though you may find my impression to be an indication that I'm racist/sexist, I don't know. In any case, I have confidence in Purvis, Wade, and the 17 other writers ;) not to do this badly. But I'm a rare fan of Purvis and Wade! I can understand hesitancy about it though, and I can assure you that the Bond/Nomi relationship will not strongly resemble the Bond/XXX one.
(If I had to attempt a prediction based on very little data, I'd guess Bond will take a lot of stick from Nomi with amusement or indifference and little return fire, but after he demonstrates his worth to her, they'll be more effective partners in the back half of the movie)
It's really not kneejerk, it's been a couple of years since this happened. At what point does it become clear?
I made a fan poster for No Time To Die and I had people asking me if I could remove Lynch (who plays a main character and has third billing in the cast list) and replace her with Ana De Amas (who appears to have nothing more than a cameo role). I don't think there's any point in pretending there's no racist motivation behind that.
A racist reaction is a racist reaction no matter if the person learns to live with the situation with a simmering resentment or not. You're making the mistake of thinking I'm saying everyone who reacted badly to it is a racist.
Actually I left that out because your use of it made your statement look a bit racist/sexist in the first place, and I didn't want to go there. Saying it's 'reactionary' appears to devalue it and put it in the realm of a gimmick, with Eon just dancing to try and please others. I don't think that's true and I think it's a bit insulting to them and the actor involved to see it that way, and you're presenting it that it is in some way as a reasonable reason to object to seeing a black woman on screen.
Everything in a Bond film is 'reactionary' in some way: they're showing the audience what they think the audience will want and enjoy in a form that suits our sensibilities.
You just have to get beyond that style of thinking. If a black face onscreen annoys you, for whatever reason you perceive it to be there, then that's no-one's problem but your own.
As I say, I really didn't want to go here and sorry for being blunt and I'm absolutely not calling you a racist, but there's no reasonable justification for feeling irritation at seeing BAME actors onscreen.
That's a fair point, sometimes it is handled very clumsily in an attempt to be overly positive. I'm watching the current series of Line of Duty though which has very high diversity and anyone in that can be a victim or a villain. It's a period of change and the more it's normalised the more it will settle down.
Bear in mind that in your example the woman was playing a villain though, so it's obviously not solely virtuous portrayals allowed even in that. What more likely alerted you to her being a terrorist was that there would be no story reason for showing scenes where that character needed training unless they were going to reveal they actually didn't. It sounds more like the writing cluing you in rather than the casting. If a male character had been shown needing training wouldn't you still have thought 'I wonder why they're showing me this?'?
Well yeah, she won't end up suddenly being pathetic and wearing a bikini so James can rescue her. I can very much deal with that.
And why do you think it's understandable that people would be annoyed at that character progression as you describe it? Doesn't that sound fine?
It pretty much is like Anya! :) Apart from her suddenly forgetting she's a superspy on the Liparus at the end. Or Wai Lin, 24 years ago.
I'm confused by the first part: not sure what you mean. I think any excessive worry about Nomi stems from a kneejerk reaction, and I think the impulse to call these people racists is a kneejerk reaction.
As to people asking you to change your poster, maybe some of it was racist? Don't know. Put a nice big Felix on there and see how many people are bothered. If someone wants Felix, Moneypenny and Nomi all removed from the poster I'd certainly have a pretty good vibe about what's going on. If it's just Nomi, who apparently irritates some people (not me), and they want her replaced with Ana, who many seem to be particularly smitten with, I wouldn't immediately draw that conclusion, no.
I may be making a mistake, but you're offering exactly one explanation for someone being annoyed about the character of Nomi. In this very quote, you suggest that not liking the Nomi idea is an inherently racist reaction.
I just don't think it's a necessarily racist reaction. I recall very little nay-saying about a black Felix or a black Moneypenny. I also recall (returning to other franchises) that it was briefly very important to be excited about the terrible-looking lady Ghostbusters movie or to appreciate the badly-written Star Wars sequels. And that few people were bothered by Rey/Rose before seeing the films. It didn't seem possible to just think the Ghostbusters movie looked terrible or that TLJ's Rose was a bad character at the time--something sinister had to be afoot. Now of course, not many people think any of that stuff was very good anyway. But there was a stretch of time where it was weirdly important to pretend otherwise.
(I'm speaking in the context of largely American web discussion, so this may vary depending one's bubble!)
A black face onscreen doesn't annoy me, and it appears to annoy few fans, with Jeffery Wright possibly being the most popular Felix of all time. I'm just trying to explain why someone might have an alarm go off with regard to Nomi. You may feel that Disney or EON just cast whoever they think is best in the role, and commercial appeal to foreign markets or avoidance of Twitter trouble doesn't come into it, but that seems naive, if sincere at all. Disney didn't just happen to think John Boyega was the best guy for the non-character of Finn, and they didn' t just happen to think that they'd keep the leads white or shrink Boyega's image on the Chinese poster.
You seem to understand this, though. Because you acknowledge:
If it's a fair point that certain approaches to casting can lead to predictable plot turns, that should make it understandable that said casting can raise a red flag for viewers. Again, I don't recall a comparable level of complaint about Jeffery Wright or Naomie Harris, because the zeitgeist of 2006/2012 didn't lead anyone to think "Oh, we're doing that then."
In my Expanse example, the woman was a villain, yeah. Of course women can be villains. (Though if this is relevant to you for some reason, she reforms and becomes a heroic character that her male colleague learns from ;) ) But her villainy was meant to be hidden, but it was obvious because she was being instructed and corrected by men, an indication that something is cranky. There are numerous other examples from that show and many others, but of course, when something is well-written, this doesn't happen, and I'm always delighted to see it. And I have confidence in the Bond writers.
(As a sort-of aside, a further point about reactionary diversity casting is the actual ethnic makeup of current films. I think it's absolutely fair to say that blacks have been well-represented in American films for quite some time, but Latinos, who make up about 20% of our population, are rather hard to find outside of drug cartel-themed entertainment. This is most unfortunate, and illustrates another downside to the reactionary nature of this well-intended change.)
Well, I miss the bikinis! I have never understood the issue with "objectifying" attractive people. If I were Daniel, it's entirely possible I would not own any shirts.
In any case, I think Anya is a terribly written and performed character, so I don't want to push the comparison, but no, I don't think my prediction describes TSWLM or TND. The latter presented a sort of bickering couple relationship, and Roger gave XXX a lot more crap than the other way around. Neither really had to "prove" themselves. And of course my prediction could be wrong anyway.
But I think it's understandable that someone would be annoyed at the character progression because of the predictablilty, which has been my larger point. If Bond were replaced by a white guy, I think it'd be more boring on some level, but there would at least be no paths in the relationship that would be off-limits to the writers. Again, I like the idea and casting of Nomi, but one knows which of the two characters is more likely to suffer humiliation or learn a life lesson from the other, and fans don't really want Bond to be that guy.
Well it means 'I don't know why you're calling it a kneejerk'. A kneejerk is an impulsive, unconsidered reaction. You're trying to delegitimise my observation by calling it that, but it really isn't impulsive or unconsidered, because I've been observing this and considering it for a couple of years.
I think you're being a bit naive, to be honest. Why weren't they asking for Madeline to be removed? What is it about Nomi which irritates them? That she's a spy? People are actively annoyed by a spy in a Bond film? C'mon.
Even if it's just on the basis that 'I don't find her attractive' then that's not exactly classy in itself. Safin's on some of the posters, deal with it.
No, I don't. One is a subset of the other.
That's what I just said, yes.
But part of it is. What is it about this character we've only seen a couple of lines from in trailers and some photos of which has upset people so much?
You're actually saying people might be understandably upset because they think it might be 'reactionary' casting. So they're negatively reacting to the colour of her skin. But not in a racist way, somehow.
But your whole point was that you understand why people would be annoyed by this, that's what you were saying in your previous posts.
As I said, if anyone is annoyed by a black face because of why they perceive they're there, then that's their problem and is a prejudiced reaction. Yes, the film companies are looking to increase diversity. Why is it okay for anyone to be annoyed by that?
Saying it hasn't happened in one case isn't proof of it not happening in another. And if you haven't seen anyone grumbling about Harris you haven't been looking everywhere.
So your issue is with writing rather than casting. There's no reason to ever be annoyed by casting (unless they're a crap actor!). I've thought about my reactions to this sort of stuff, I don't consider myself perfect, and I've realised that these sorts of thoughts which I've been brought up with are damaging to real people, and we have to learn to grow beyond them. You said you thought the trailer for Rogue One alone looked 'irritating' because of the diversity of the actors involved- you're irritated by seeing diverse faces. That's not an informed reaction (you haven't seen the film) and honestly it's just the sort of thing we have to stop in future. How would you feel if a stranger looked at you in your job and thought 'well he didn't get that job on merit'? And that's what this sort of stuff does to people every day.
As I said, it's more likely that the script focusing on any character's need for instruction was what set your alarms off as it's just the sort of thing which is surplus to the plot unless they're showing it to you for a reason.
And they'd ask her to be removed from the poster because they think this Bond film might have a familiar plot? They'd call her all sorts of names and criticise the actress because they think the plot of the 25th movie in a long-running formulaic series might be a predictable? Come on.
A few people may well and probably do think that way, but at no point have I ever said that everyone who criticises her thinks that way: I'm criticising the racist reaction, which very plainly exists.
Well, sure, but you seem to be observing and considering it an unnecessarily uncharitable way.
This is surely just disingenuous. Madeleine is a fairly standard Bond girl, and if she were black, I don't think they would ask for her to be removed either. Were there big problems with Halle Berry (performance aside)?
What I'm suggesting irritates some people about Nomi is her replacing 007 to appease the zeitgeist, and the high likelihood (based on current trends and the trailer) that she will repeatedly show up James Bond.
As I've said, I'm not worried that this will happen, but if I thought it was likely, I'd be annoyed too. I wouldn't want him teamed up with a white male 00 agent either.
Um, again, because one can look at how much of the characterization is being done with this diversity and not be very excited about the likely relationship between Bond and Nomi.
The only problem I have with any diversity in films is that it greatly reduces the number of characters you are allowed to dislike! :)) But I find it's a price worth paying.
You're certainly correct that I'm not "looking everywhere" to find racists.
But anyway, it's not just The Expanse or Star Wars. It's all over the place. There's no need to list a dozen context-heavy examples. You've already said you're aware of it.
Yeah, the writing is the problem. Not the casting. The people upset about Nomi probably wouldn't love it if there was a new white guy 007 who (I'm predicting again) does the job as good or better than Bond, gives him stick, and teaches him a lesson or two.
With regard to Rogue One, I guess we just have to disagree. If I see two white people, a black guy, a Latina, a Chinese guy, a Pacific Islander, etc, etc, I see the corporate memo. I see a military recruitment ad. I want diversity in my movies, but I don't want such obvious contrivance. You may see happy coincidence in how well the Rogue One crew turned out, and that's great.
If a stranger thought I didn't get my job on the basis of merit, I wouldn't like it. But if jobs are indeed being offered on something other than merit, then that's just going to happen. Idris Elba has pointed out that he's pretty sure most people aren't genuinely convinced he'd be the best choice for Bond, but rather he's a black British guy that people know.
It's not kneejerk, and I don't really see why the nastiness she's received (and I do mean Lynch herself) should be treated charitably.
That's not really proof. Nomi's a very standard Bond girl too: as you said, the plot seems predictable.
And sadly things seem to have got worse in the last 20 years in some ways. Lots of folk think they have to battle against 'woke' culture, and that often means they just become more racist.
As I said, Bond gets shown up by the female lead at some point in most films.
'Pleasing the zeigiest' seems to be just another way of reframing the 'reactionary' bit, so again: they're reacting negatively to her skin colour.
And you'd ask for the character to be removed from the poster, criticise the actor etc.? Surely you can see how some of this behaviour is not reasonable and not purely motivated by the story of the film?
You'd ask her to be removed from the poster because of that then? No, I'm not giving up with that one :D
But no, I don't think that's acceptable to be annoyed by that either. You're saying it's fine to hate a black character in a Bond film, for the reason that she's black, because you think that means her role will be predictable. In a Bond film. Those wildy unpredictable, totally unformulaic, anything-can-happen Bond movies where nothing similar ever happens between the movies :D
We don't even know if Nomi turns out to be a baddie yet. That wouldn't be unpredictable either: a lot of Bond women turn out to be bad.
But you are trying to excuse them wherever you can. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I like to think the best of people too, but with Lynch it's clear there has been a racist reaction.
Then these are very fragile people. Bond isn't real, and as the hero he'll always get the upper hand by the end. If people are upset or annoyed by a codename in a movie they need to spend some time away from the films.
Again, you need to move beyond that thinking. If you're getting annoyed at that but never annoyed at how everyone in a Bond film or a superhero film for the last half century has been incredibly good-looking with perfect bodies, and that doesn't make you annoyed in how contrived it is, then you need to examine your own thinking.
Maybe you do realise how contrived that is, and maybe you learned to live with it. The same should be true here, only the diversity is actually having a beneficial effect on our society rather than a negative one.
But they're not. Lynch is a professional actress.
And you've missed my point. That sort of mindset is the sort of thing BAME people face everyday.
I did honestly regret putting her in a skimpy outfit. I did it because it's a sort of retro poster and I thought it was fun, but I don't think I'd do it that way again. Madeline is in a dress and no-one complained that she should be in her undies.
was greatly reduced in the Star Wars poster for the Chinese Market, the same
with the late Chadwick Boseman's image on the Black Panther poster. Many
companies will comply with Racist countries policies, if it makes them some
extra cash. Disney for instance actually thanking the Chinese Communist Party
in the area of filming near their " Re-Education " camps for the Uighurs, camps
where forced sterilisations, Rapes and torture take place.
Well this is just disingenuous. I didn't suggest Nomi's character may be predictable because it's a Bond movie, but because of likely self-limitations on how interactions between a white man and a black woman will be written.
I don't concern myself with fan art, so no! :)) But it's true that there must be some number of people who hate Nomi because she's black. They probably don't like Halle Berry, Jeffrey Wright, or Naomie Harris either.
No, I'm not saying that. Nomi's casting can be considered fairly predictive of a relationship that wouldn't go down well with fans. And in fact, her being black is hardly a factor. A white woman in this role would not be popular either.
By your definition of "racist behavior" (not liking Nomi), you would obviously be correct. But I haven't defended any racism. If someone doesn't want black people in their movie,they can eat a bowl of poop.
We can just disagree. I think it's okay for people to have strong opinions about how their favorite film franchises develop.
No, I don't. If there was a bald guy,an eye patch, and a fat lady in every team I'd be annoyed too.
You're mistaken. In the US at least, university placements, government jobs,and all sorts of internal quotas elsewhere have people in positions for reasons other than merit. And Idris seems to think his fan casting isn't entirely on merit.
But she is in a Bond movie regardless. So any complaints about predictability fall down a bit, because if you're looking for something fresh and wild and different, a Bond movie isn't the place to look. And it's not really somewhere to complain about finding predictability, especially when so many of the same fans complain that they want a return to 'the formula'.
Also you're saying these people are upset about her being 007 (which is a new and apparently scary thing) and also upset about her character being predictable?
Exactly. That's all I'm saying.
You're twisting around a bit here. Your point was that casting black actors shows that the character is unlikely to be anything unpredictable, so it's understandable that people would get annoyed about that. If the race has nothing to do with I'm not sure why you think the role is suddenly so predictable.
And again: why would the role being predictable justify actual hate? And towards the actor?
This whole conversation is about trying to say some of the behaviour isn't racist. My definition of racism is being prejudiced against non-white people and subjecting them to hatred because of their skin colour.
I do not think it's likely that a lot of these people have acted with hate towards this woman just because they think the plot will be a bit predictable.
And don't forget it's racist by your definition too. My initial comment was that some people reacted badly and claimed it wasn't because she was a black woman 'no siree'. You said "Im not sure it's necessary to imply these people are racists", and then went on to attempt to explain why it's actually understandable to get annoyed at seeing a black woman on screen ('predictable', 'reactionary' etc.). So you first identified that behaviour as racist (you used that word first) and then tried to explain why it's reasonable.
When it comes to abuse towards real people I think it's gone too far.
Why would it matter to you?
If contrived casting is a problem, does the contrivance of unrealistically attractive young white people in almost every major role not annoy you?
Black people you mean? Because of diversity? And you think they're not capable of their jobs? There's only ever one person available who can do a job? in some of those cases a white person can't do that job as effectively, because they're helping to reach out to black communities.
I'm also not sure what you're saying here with regards to Bond. That some people are frustrated that black people are in Government is not a reasonable reason to react badly to seeing a black woman in a film. That would be a racist reaction, pure and simple.
I'm just wondering what you think of all of those attractive women who got cast in Bond movies in the 60s, 70s and 80s because they looked great, even though they could barely act. Should they have got those roles or should they have gone to better, more capable actresses? Barbara Bach for example, as you mentioned her earlier. Did she get that job on merit?
Lynch is a much better actress. If you can prove she didn't get the role on merit, go for it.
You continue to evade the point. It's not merely how predictable the part may be, but what specifically can be predicted, which is understandably unpalatable for many fans who don't want to see Bond as the second-most competent 007 in a movie.
If "all you're saying" is that some people hate Naomie, Lashana, and Jefferey because they're black, then we apparently agree that we're talking about a very small number of people. Anecdotally, I've seen zero people who hate Jefferey Wright and I've noticed one definite racist who disliked a black Moneypenny. Given that you're uninterested in hypothesizing about any conceivable reason to dislike the idea of Nomi other than racism, I do wonder how you account for the relative popularity of the other two.
Or for that matter, why crazy Lashana hate didn't seem to materialize until the whole "she's 007" thing came about. (Unless my racism-defending brain is playing memory tricks on me...) Do you suppose if Ana de Armas was the new 007, these folks would say, "Oh, that's perfectly fine"? Is it not possible that I'm onto something with fans of James Bond 007 resenting the idea that James Bond is possibly less impressive in this movie than a new 007? Again, this isn't a fear I share.
With regard to douchebags harassing actors on Twitter, we're moving goalposts a bit, but sure, that's absolutely unacceptable.
Because I'm not hoping for an increase in cliche and contrivance in popular films?
And popular cinema has been (at least selectively) diverse for some time now. White people are--happily--not in every role. But the point about attractiveness is just silly. People want to see aesthetically-pleasing versions of real life in much of their entertainment, and this should mean diversity, but also good-looking people. :))
If this is how you're reading my comments, it's no small wonder you think there are more racists than there were 20 years ago!
The fact is, in the United States, ethnic background can give you extra points on university entrance exams as well as tests for civil servant positions. It is possible for a non-white (or non-Asian) person to get a position with a score that would disqualify a white or Asian. And I don't even mean to suggest that this a bad idea. But your earlier comment was simply wrong. You brought up quota hiring and claimed it doesn't exist, so you can explain your reasons for it. I was just pointing out that you're mistaken. This comment--"Black people you mean? Because of diversity? And you think they're not capable of their jobs?"--is just stupid. Of course I don't think that and said nothing resembling it if you're not jumping to the most uncharitable conclusions possible.
Incidentally, when I talk about "government jobs", I am not talking about the Vice President or Secretary of State, I'm talking about ordinary bureaucrats and civil servants. If racists don't want black people in high-level government positions, that's horrible, and completely unrelated to anything I'm talking about.
Barbara Bach, and many other actresses from the 1962-2002 era, did not get their jobs on merit, and should have been replaced by more qualified attractive women. :))
1) NTTD will be good or great, Nomi will be just fine, and all the grumpy people will settle down (except the racists who hate Strutter and Felix and Jinx and Robinson).
2) NTTD will suck and/or Nomi will be annoying for some reason, and most people will agree that it's okay to not like Nomi if you don't.
I think number 1 is gonna happen, but I'm a glass-is-half-full kind of guy and I loved Spectre. :))
Number 2 is kind of what happened with Star Wars and that third Ghostbusters film. In either case, life will find a way. ;)
'How predictable it is' is exactly the same thing as 'what can be predicted'. I'm not evading anything.
As you just said: "Nomi's casting can be considered fairly predictive of a relationship that wouldn't go down well with fans. And in fact, her being black is hardly a factor." which is a bizarre bit of circular logic, because you're saying her casting shows how predictable it is, and yet if she hadn't been cast it would still be predictable. Which makes no sense.
If anyone thinks that Bond won't save the day and be the most competent superspy in it then they haven't seen many Bond movies! :))
Eh? No, I'm saying that "that there must be some number of people who hate Nomi because she's black", which is what you said.
I have no idea why you want to qualify that to somehow try and make it into a smaller amount of people. I don't understand your motivation here.
When people have said they hate it for just the reason that they think no-one else should be 007 then I think that's insane(! :D ), but there's no reason to think they're racist. When others complain and start using the word 'woke', well...
How many times have I had to clarify that I don't think the entire reaction is down to racism? And still you put words in my mouth.
The 007 thing came about on the day of the reveal of her casting. We were speculating about here on that day, so the crazy Lynch hate was there from day one.
In you own words: "This is surely just disingenuous"
And no, I don't think it would get the same reaction. As you've accepted that some people do hate Lynch because she's black, you must surely understand that too.
Partly. As I've said multiple times, I'm not saying it's exclusively racist.
What it is is the 007 thing, undoubtably, because many of them feel that a black woman shouldn't be on an equal footing professionally with Bond. If it were De Amas of course the reaction wouldn't have been as bad. It would still be bad to some extent because she's a woman, but not as bad because she's not black.
Read Lynch's own thoughts on the subject: When, on a Sunday afternoon in April of last year, the news leaked that a Black woman would be inheriting the 007 mantle, Lynch immediately experienced an onslaught of outrage. For a week, she deleted her social-media apps, meditated and saw no one but family, while comforting herself with the knowledge that the aggressive comments were ultimately not personal.
"I am one Black woman — if it were another Black woman cast in the role, it would have been the same conversation, she would have got the same attacks, the same abuse." https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/culture/culture-news/a34517814/lashana-lynch-black-female-007-interview/
Those fans were all disappointed at the predictable plotting?
How is that moving the goalposts? I'm talking about reaction to her casting, that is part of it. That sort of thing clearly isn't down to people finding her storyline a bit predictable.
It's not silly at all, it's exactly the same thing: contrived casting. But seeing non-white people is apparently irritating, whereas contrived appearances of attractive people is good.
I can see how both are contrived, but it doesn't irritate me because I know it's healthy to have those people there in those films. As many as possible until people stop reacting to things like Lynch's casting in this way.
With Rogue One I honestly don't even remember. I recall there's an east Asian guy playing a blind Jedi type and Riz Ahmed is in it (who is a proper movie actor) but that's about it. Oh, Forrest Whittaker is a scary crazy guy who can't be trusted. It never even occurred to me to get irritated by their races.
That's not even what I said 8-|
If we're getting to the point of you calling my comments stupid I think you've lost the argument already.
This conversation has been about casting in movies, when you start talking about jobs in the US Government and bringing that into the conversation then it feels like there's a chip on the shoulder at play. If you think they're capable at their jobs then there's no problem at all.
Again, as I said before, if people are simmering their resentment about these jobs you're talking about and they see that as relevant to movie actresses and take it out on them, then that is racially motivated. Nothing to be charitable about.
Exactly, so if we're so worried about jobs being allocated on a merit basis in Bond films, take it out on them.
I honestly don't understand why you'd be so keen to play down the racist angle on the backlash to her. It's not healthy to try and excuse these things or try to come up with other reasons why it's okay to get irritated by seeing BAME people onscreen: it's never okay.
I'll try to make it clearer then? "How predictable a thing is" is not the same thing as "the thing that is being predicted". This was stated in other ways throughout the comment. I claimed that her being black is hardly a factor because one can have similar expectations of any woman in the part.
But for the nth time, it's not a concern I really share, as I more or less agree with your last sentence.
I said, "It's true that there must be some number of people who hate Nomi because she's black. They probably don't like Halle Berry, Jeffrey Wright, or Naomie Harris either," and you replied "Exactly. That's all I'm saying." The number of people who just hate having any black people in Bond seems rather small when put this way, and less like the "so many people" comment that began this long discussion.
I agree that it's silly for people to object to a different 007 of any gender or color. But is use of the word "woke" indicative of racism?
I guess I've just missed the alternative hypothesis on your end? I guess I'm not sure if you're saying racism is part of the reason for every person who dislikes the Nomi thing, or if only some of the people dislike it for racist reasons. Are there any okay reasons to dislike the Nomi thing?
But this is just your continued assumption. I've been trying to suggest that if a woman is "worse" than a man for these people, and a black woman "worse" than some other kind of woman, it's not necessarily because the person is anti-black, but because of what they suspect it will mean for the characterization of Bond given what can be seen in other films/series.
"Seeing non-white people is apparently irritating" seems to be a deliberate misrepresentation, given that I specifically said I'd be fine with zero white people in Rogue One. In fact, I'd have preferred it.
Well then I misinterpreted "sadly things seem to have got worse in the last 20 years in some ways. Lots of folk think they have to battle against 'woke' culture, and that often means they just become more racist". Perhaps the same number of racists, but more virulent?
Um, you asked how I'd feel someone thought I didn't get my job based on merit. I'm not an actor. I said that people do get jobs not based on merit, which is true, and you said it's not true. It wasn't really my line at all, and I don't have a chip on my shoulder about it. I would agree that if someone is angry about jobs being "taken" from them and take it out on black actresses, that's crazy and racist. But I'm still not sure what you were on about.
I'm not worried about jobs being allocated on a merit basis in Bond films. Again, this merit thing was some point you were making. Lashana (in addition to all of the other black actors to have well-received roles in recent Bond films) is almost certainly a better actor than the majority of pre-Craig actresses (and actors, for that matter). And I do take it out on poor Barbara. :))
Well, I'm trying not to repeat myself, and trying to be concise, but I just don't think you're establishing a (widespread) racist angle. You assume "many of them feel that a black woman shouldn't be on an equal footing professionally with Bond", and I think that for more people it's to do with what they expect her casting to mean for the characterization of Bond. And I'm not personally worried about it, but I see where they may be coming from.
The assumption of racism is something I've already seen with the Rose Tico character, where a lot of people didn't like the character and it was assumed to be racist. Then after a while nobody was all that crazy about the character anyway. The movie will come out and everything will likely be fine for everyone. :)
A seminar at Institut für England- und Amerikastudien (Institute for English and American Studies), Frankfurt,
addresses For Your Eyes Only? James Bond in the Times of Black Lives Matter.
(Homework: For Your Eyes Only, Skyfall, Spectre.)
How exactly does growing up require that one stop talking about subjects of controversy? I'd suggest that the opposite would be true. Of course, from my own perspective, Live And Let Die is one of the few Bond films that actively engages with the subject of race, and that film is not on the homework list -- so what do I know?
Would love to be able to review their mentioned reader described as with relevant critical texts, available at that institution's local copy shop Script & Copy.
I just personally don't think race is a big deal. I relate to people of all races based on their character and actions, and not on the color of their skin, because in my experience it's the person inside that's most important. I love the black friends I've had, and black people in general, but I don't support BLM for various reasons. The system works to address racial problems, as we saw in the U.S. this last week with the Chauvin trial.
One other point: three days ago in New York City, white people were dining outside at a restaurant, and a group of Black Lives Matter protesters interrupted their meals and told them to "get the f--- out of New York". People who do that have mental and emotional problems and are brainwashed to some extent by the culture, and this is what I mean by the need for some people to grow up and stop whining.
I think it's much easier for a white person (such as myself) to think that race isn't "a big deal" than it is for a black person to claim the same belief. But the simple statistics of black deaths at police hands vs. white deaths under the same circumstances prove the point to anyone judging the situation in an unbiased manner. Race does still matter in the USA, let's not try to pretend otherwise.
On the topic of "getting the f--- out of New York City" I must admit that I hadn't heard this story until just now. So I did a little quick investigating of the topic. For those interested, here's a link to the first newspaper article my Google search uncovered: https://nypost.com/2021/04/21/blm-protesters-scream-at-diners-outside-nyc-restaurant/ By my read, a few dozen protesters out of a march of thousands, stopped at a restaurant briefly to berate the diners there in an inpromptu fashion -- urging the diners to "Tip 30%" as well as for them to not dine inside of New York City at all. So I think that this wasn't really a well-thought through situation. This is not a tactic that I endorse...nor, given that we are talking about approximately 24 protesters out of a pool of thousands, is it an incident that causes me to reconsider my overall support for the notion that police officers nationwide need to drastically change their policies on the use of deadly force against civilians of all colors.
Yes, I'd have thought Live and Let Die would have been a shoo-in but the organisers of the seminar seem to have other ideas. I suppose what would we actual fans know in the face of such learned academics? 8-|