Die Another Day - will it age gracefully?

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  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Theres a brilliant sequence in part 2 where he imagines how the audience at the premier react.

    so far after watching this review, and thinking upon my own problems with the film (many of which align with this same ones that reviewer discusses)... i think i am closer to understanding and discovering why i don't like the film.... i'll explain more after I watch part 2...
  • Posts: 1,497
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Exactly. I remember sitting in the cinema in 2002 at the age of 17 thinking "this plane stuff looks silly". What suprises me is that none of the filmakers questioned it. Surely one would have said: "that looks fake".

    There sometimes can be a tendency for film-makers to only see what they want to see--putting blinders on so to speak.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,310
    JBFan626 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Exactly. I remember sitting in the cinema in 2002 at the age of 17 thinking "this plane stuff looks silly". What suprises me is that none of the filmakers questioned it. Surely one would have said: "that looks fake".

    There sometimes can be a tendency for film-makers to only see what they want to see--putting blinders on so to speak.
    I'd imagine that the filmmakers saw the final product, thought it looked terrible but soon realized that time was running out on the release date and left it in anyway. Look, CGI is not the end of film as we know it and when used correctly, can be very advantageous. But I have not seen a single film where EVERYTHING was CG'd and I was 100% convinced.

    Take Quantum of Solace; that free-fall sequence was fake looking, let's get that out of the way. I didn't want to admit it to myself when I first saw it in theaters, but I've come to terms since. Especially when you compare it to the thrilling pre-titles sequence of Moonraker, the free-falling in QOS looks slick and fake. (Wow, I just cited Moonraker as a positive reference.) The issue with the free-fall scene in Quantum of Solace is stuntmen never actually performed the stunt! Perhaps cutaways of a real stunt intertwined with green screen close ups would have worked better? EON has to realize they CANNOT convincingly do a near 100% CG scene. Especially in a Bond film (which are known for their real stunts), these scenes stick out like sore thumbs and just don't work.

    PS: I don't understand, with the massive budgets of Bond films, why EON cannot get their hands on the best VFX company out there. Industrial Light & Magic anyone???
  • I can deal with Die Another Day. But that's because I've aquired a taste for bad movies. Sometimes they transcend bad and become entertaining on a whole other level.
    I can deal with the ridiculous themes in DAD, even the invisible car, but the real problem lies on those GOD AWFUL one liners... especially everything that comes out of Jinx's mouth. The scene when she first meets Bond especially makes me cringe.
    The movie is much better when muted.
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited December 2011 Posts: 4,399
    Okay, finished watching the entire review HapHazardStuff.com did of Die Another Day, and much like I said before, I stand by everything the man says... a lot of the stuff he mentioned already aligned with my own thoughts and feelings - some stuff he didn't mention.. but he also brought up stuff I had never considered when watching the film before - like Miranda saving Bond from Gustav's guards with a kiss, but then revealing herself later on - what was the exact point of that? as he said "was it just too cold, and she preferred to do it inside?" LOLs...

    but after watching it, I think I finally figured out what annoys me with the film the most - and it's a similar problem I had with TMWTGG - but on a much larger scale.... first off, my problem with Golden Gun, is that I thought it an opportunity to craft a real suspenseful cat and mouse thriller between Bond being stalked by a ghost of an assassin known as Scaramanga, who could be hired by the KGB to pick off 00 agents.. and Bond must find and stop him before he himself gets done in.. and the film started off with that notion, but abandon's it - and we are treated to bored paint by the numbers water color out of a 99 cent coloring book.... Die Another Day however, had multiple chances to really take the franchise into new an interesting territories (one could make the point that it still did, but in every wrong way imaginable)... Its a film full of abandoned opportunities and chances - in order to cram in more witless dialog and explosions.... there were chance after chance to really explore Bond psychologically after being tortured for 14 months - his now burned status, which could mean we could see Bond possibly operating in some shady ways we aren't used to seeing because of his disassociation with Mi6...... but instead, they tease you with an idea, and then go back to status quo..... it represents every failed promise of the Brosnan era of Bond, and every failed promise leading up the film, that said we were going to be treated to something a little grittier, a little darker - a genuine Bond experience that will be thrilling..... but all we got was the film Batman & Robin fitted for tux.... there's a bit in this review where it shows a creepy jester like clown person, luring kids from their homes and then locking them in a truck and driving them away - and uses Bond references over the scene, to play off we as fans being enticed to come back after TWINE, and then the cruel reality of being trapped with DAD... while his analogy is over the top, it does ring a bit of truth..

    there is another comment the reviewer makes, that I like, because it directly address the comment that some people make when talking about this film - that being "turn your brain off an enjoy it for what it is." ..... well....

    quoting HapHazardStuff.com --- "I supposed you can just turn off your brain and accept the film's lack of logic, physics, or wit, or the presence of awful performances, appalling dialog, an abandoned plot, embarrassing special effects and enjoy it as a colorful mess of images that are goofingly trying to entertain you... but I can't."

    I feel the same way - there is just too much to simply say "turn your brain off and enjoy"... if I am to turn my brain my brain to all of those things, then what exactly am I watching? - i would probably equate that to taking a hit of acid, and then playing with a psychedelic zoetrope for 2 hours.... turning my brain off, and accepting the film for what it is, would mean I would have to watch it with a pretty juvenile sense of expectation and entertainment...

    my personal feelings as to way some people are praising DAD, now more than in years past.... is many of us (not all) who've seen in theaters, and were exposed to it first - walk away, and are traumatized.. so for years, we do nothing but rip it apart.. so when someone new comes along who hasn't seen it - and listens to all the negativity beforehand goes "whoa - this must be pretty F'n bad." .. then they watch it and say "It's not as bad as they say it is." ..... of course it isn't, when watching the film with very very very low expectations - so then naturally it grows on you..... i've done this myself with other films as well........ i also see this as to why a 180 is being done on MR ...... i think it's just subconscious human nature... if something gets routinely bashed, eventually people come along who watch it expecting the worst, and walk away going "it's not that bad"..... and vice versa.... same applies with stuff that is routinely praised - eventually some people come around to watch it, and expect the second coming and go, "it's not as good as they say it is."..... it's a weird and interesting cycle, that i believe has absolutely nothing to do with the films' quality - but more to do with human psychology.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,778
    What kind of question is that? It's not even 10 years old yet and it's already aged horribly.
  • Is this a trick question?
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Is this a trick question?

    honestly, no.... although it does seem like it doesn't it?...

    it's just recently, i've seen people giving this film more praise than in the past (and personally more praise that i think it deserves).. so I was naturally curious, as to thoughts of this film almost 10 years later, and where it will be 10 - 20 years from now....

    and just thinking about that, 10 years already........ damn..... it feels like only yesterday..... ah, the signs of getting old :-( lol

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 295
    The thing is, despite the fact that it irritates the Bondian purists, at its heart Moonraker is a superb example of film-making craft produced by many incomparably talented individuals at the utter peak of their powers. The same cannot be said of DAD. (It's still the best Brosnan movie, however.)
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 5,745
    Die Another Day was aged upon release, and the death laser-dealt tsunami surf from the back of a record-breaking jet car scene WILL NOT age gracefully.
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    the death laser-dealt tsunami surf from the back of a record-breaking jet car scene
    Seriously, who thinks of that.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited December 2011 Posts: 13,355
    HASEROT wrote:
    quoting HapHazardStuff.com --- "I supposed you can just turn off your brain and accept the film's lack of logic, physics, or wit, or the presence of awful performances, appalling dialog, an abandoned plot, embarrassing special effects and enjoy it as a colorful mess of images that are goofingly trying to entertain you... but I can't."

    I feel the same way - there is just too much to simply say "turn your brain off and enjoy"... if I am to turn my brain my brain to all of those things, then what exactly am I watching?

    And that's the exact problem I have with it and why it will - I think - always be last in my rankings. There's so much wrong with it, as well as the early wasted potential, I can't ignore it. It's the only Bond film, that from nearly start to finish, is painful to watch.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It's aging like fine wine...HA just kidding it sucks.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited December 2011 Posts: 14,582
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Die Another Day was aged upon release, and the death laser-dealt tsunami surf from the back of a record-breaking jet car scene WILL NOT age gracefully.
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    the death laser-dealt tsunami surf from the back of a record-breaking jet car scene
    Seriously, who thinks of that.

    It's like they pulled random ideas out of a hat. Okay, what do we have here? A death laser, an ice jet car, and more surfing. Wait- here's a brilliant idea!...

    Ah, Die Another Day. You are so good- especially when you're bad...
  • The WORST last line to any movie ever!!!!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    JamesStock wrote:
    The WORST last line to any movie ever!!!!

    when i thought the "I thought Christmas comes only once a year." line from TWINE could not be topped, they went and unleashed "Especially when your bad." ... a line, and delivery so horrible, and so creepy - that you could feel everyone cringe in the audience.

  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    HASEROT wrote:
    i pose a question, for all of those that love MR - and even to those that don't....... do you seem the same 180 being pulled with DAD in the next 20 years?.. do you think in 20 years, some people will be sitting on here, singing the same praises for DAD that many currently do for MR?...... not trying to make or prove a point here... just naturally curious as to some opinions on this board...

    I think DAD will always have its critics. But I figure some younger viewers will discover it as their first Bond film and defend it just as many whose first Bond film was AVTAK. MR's much better than either of them IMHO.

  • Posts: 2,341
    I know wine turns into vinegar. I've never heard of vinegar turning into wine.

    Well put my friend. Well put.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 4,622
    DAD is Brozz's best performance as Bond IMO, which isn't saying a whole lot, as he wasn't really very good as Bond. But Brozzer had some good moments in DAD. He seemed a little more relaxed, less intense, and thus more quietly menancing in the Connery style. Brozzer fights pretty well in this film. Does a good job with the machine gunning too, but he is the ultimate machine-gun Bond (well established in his first two films; machine-gun Brozzer). But the biggest bummer about the film, is the awful notion that our man Bond would find himself wallowing in a Korean Prison camp for 14 months. Book Bond fine, but not movie Bond. I don't want such faux realism in a Bond movie, at least not for Bond himself. DAD does have it's share of cringe worthy moments, but there's enough good Bond-worthy action and escapist set-pieces and characters, that it does work in the fine tradition of the more escapist Bond films. In fact I really do like the Ice Palace and the car duel with Zao. The whole Cuba episode is quite Bond-entertaining on many levels, except for the cringe worthy Bond/Jinx dialogue when they first meet. Bond's meeting with Raoul is well done, as is the entire sequence at the clinic. Halle Berry even pulls off her part quite well here, especially when she blows away the evil doctor. I'm not a big fan of most of the plane-battle climax, especially the heavy emphasis on CGI. Madonna's work IMO is horrid, both musically and "acting." DAD is also very nice to look at. I like Tamahori's work with colour. A lot of lush greens, blues and other ice colours. The film looks great in hi-def.
  • Posts: 1,492
    timmer wrote:
    DAD is Brozz's best performance as Bond IMO, which isn't saying a whole lot, as he wasn't really very good as Bond.

    Haphazard makes this point very well in his excellent review. He admits he never got a grip on the character.

    Interestingly he highlights one of the other flaws of the film ie how cheap it looks with the fake snow and the shabbily painted backdrops.

    I am fed up with the "turn your brain off" argument. I want to engage with the film I am watching - and for me that means using my brain.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    The "I thought Christmas only comes once a year" is nothing compared to the final exchange between Bond and Jinx. In fact I just treated the Christmas line as a bit of naff fun akin to the ending of FYEO.

    I was virtually crying at that final scene of DAD.

    Your right about the low expectations stuff @haserot. When DAD was on tv recently I thought "I'll watch it, I could do with a laugh" and, unsurprisingly, I found myself enjoying it more - at least up until Iceland. I still think there are bits of the film that work - quite effectively I might add - but the potential is loss amongst the rubbish. One line I hate is Halle Berry's "switch it off...or I'm gonna be half the girl I used to be" while she is at risk of being sliced in half by the lazer. Shame she wasn't I say!

    I was reading an old review of DAD from a well known UK broadsheet which said:
    "There was a time during the latter days of Roger Moore's tenure when Bond was
    lusting after girls young enough to be his daughters, and spouting double entendres that made him look not so much urbane as a dirty old man".

    This made me laugh. He obviously missed a 49 year old Pierce leering over a 23 year old Rosamund Pike.

    The best thing you can say about DAD is that it doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't and presents itself as a piece of comic entertainment. I don't hate the film like a lot of people do but it certainly contains some of the worst scenes to ever feature in a Bond film.

    That Haphazard video really "nailed" a lot of points though and puts forward a strong argument. I will ALWAYS have a bit of love for old Pierce for personal reasons but that video has made me think.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,497
    BAIN123 wrote:
    The best thing you can say about DAD is that it doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't and presents itself as a piece of comic entertainment.

    I have a problem with the fact that the film establishes a gritty stark/grey tone for the PTS and the Bond torture scenes, and never follows up on what it sets up. It had a very current, real world premise from the start with the North Korea issue, and then completely goes in another direction. To me DAD wants to be serious, and then wants to be over-the-top and outrageous, wants to be Bond throwback, and then wants to be a cliche Austin Powers double entendre extravanganza. DAD is pretending to be lots of different things if you ask me, rather than sticking to one tonal thread, which would have majorly improved the movie.

  • Posts: 297
    JBFan626 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    The best thing you can say about DAD is that it doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't and presents itself as a piece of comic entertainment.

    I have a problem with the fact that the film establishes a gritty stark/grey tone for the PTS and the Bond torture scenes, and never follows up on what it sets up. It had a very current, real world premise from the start with the North Korea issue, and then completely goes in another direction. To me DAD wants to be serious, and then wants to be over-the-top and outrageous, wants to be Bond throwbakc, and then wants to be a cliche Austin Powers double entendre extravanganza. DAD is pretending to be lots of different things if you ask me, rather than sticking to one tonal thread, which would have majorly improved the movie.

    That PTS to me now looks like a blueprint or test assembly for the Craig films to follow. Sad it wasn't kept for the last Brosnan.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    JBFan626 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    The best thing you can say about DAD is that it doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't and presents itself as a piece of comic entertainment.

    I have a problem with the fact that the film establishes a gritty stark/grey tone for the PTS and the Bond torture scenes, and never follows up on what it sets up. It had a very current, real world premise from the start with the North Korea issue, and then completely goes in another direction. To me DAD wants to be serious, and then wants to be over-the-top and outrageous, wants to be Bond throwback, and then wants to be a cliche Austin Powers double entendre extravanganza. DAD is pretending to be lots of different things if you ask me, rather than sticking to one tonal thread, which would have majorly improved the movie.

    Ok, point taken ;)

    I suppose what I meant is that DAD, as a whole, isn't as po-faced as some of the others. It has the required sense of fantasy - its just that they overdo it to the extreme.
  • Posts: 1,310
    After watching that Mamma Mia! video, I have come to the conclusion that Pierce Brosnan should never be allowed to sing in public again.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Kennon wrote:
    That PTS to me now looks like a blueprint or test assembly for the Craig films to follow.

    Nope, that was the Dalton era.

  • Posts: 5,745
    actonsteve wrote:
    Kennon wrote:
    That PTS to me now looks like a blueprint or test assembly for the Craig films to follow.

    Nope, that was the Dalton era.

    2002 was the Dalton era? If 2006 was Craig's era, then where does Brosnan fit in to your timeline?
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    SJK91 wrote:
    After watching that Mamma Mia! video, I have come to the conclusion that Pierce Brosnan should never be allowed to sing in public again.

    I've grown to accept Pierce's singing. You can tell he's putting a lot of effort into it. I think this is more cringe inducing to be honest:



    The fake singing is ok but - urgh - the scene.
  • Posts: 5,745
    WHAT.. *cough* excuse me, what is that thing? With the blonde hair? And why is James Bond caressing it?
  • Posts: 11,189
    "It" is Mae West an icon of a bygone era. About 91 years of age according to Dalton.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Even though she lived to 87 (according to Wikipedia...)?
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