Reevaluating Madeleine Swann (SPOILERS)

Jordo007

Yeah I agree @BlondeBond
I love the moment Paloma reveals the tux, it's playful and it calls back to Vesper in Casino

I wish they made Bond and Paloma platonic but it's only a small moment I guess, she's still a great character

Lea's acting in NTTD was excellent I thought. Lea is such a bubbly fun person in interviews, I wish we could have seen Madeline be more like that, perhaps early on in Matera

Feyador

peter wrote: »

4EverBonded wrote: »

Madeleine in NTTD is amazing, superb, and she became one of my favorite Bond girls/women ever. Believable, charming, subdued, a realistic love and genuine warmth between her and Bond. Lea is outstanding in this movie - giving a subtle, beautiful, and very appropriate performance. I was so pleased to see her as the film unfolded. I did not care much for Spectre, or their relationship in Spectre. It felt cookie cutter empty but fun, like in a Moore film (and I love Roger as Bond).

Bond is still Bond, and his attitude toward Paloma and Nomi to me fit what the loner, hurt, just surviving thank you, getting on with it person he withdrew into. There are layers in NTTD that are just so good. It moves so well, that it needs at least 2 or 3 viewings to absorb much of what it offers. I saw it 3 times in the cinema, and I enjoyed it - and Lea and Daniel together - more with each viewing.

@4EverBonded said it so more eloquently than I ever could. I'll just add I fell in love with Madeleine hard in this film; such an emotional and genuine performance, where was this in Spectre (likely lost in an undercooked Spectre script)?

Oh, I don't know ... I think the confessional moment on the train that ends with Craig saying, 'I don't have to teach you a thing.' And the scene set in L'Ameicain worked very well for me. They both suggested the potential for a different, weighter, & more mature relationship than what he had had with Vesper. With Vesper it was like the highly-charged discovery of first love, both very romantic and highly sexualized. And as a consequence he was never going to get over her "betrayal." Until Madeleine ....

peter

Spectre may've hinted at a more mature relationship to come, I agree… but it went from careful consideration of each other to full on “love”. To me it was jarring and lazy and I never felt they were in love at all.

However, as soon as I saw them in the Aston in NTTD, I bought it completely and; Lea ran with this better script. She’s the heart of NTTD, and she was flawless.

I’ve said before: Madeleine has joined the greats: Tracy and Vesper.

BlondeBond

In all fairness, Vesper and Bond are considered a great romance yet she spends most of their time together arguing with him or being condescendingly combative before they are suddenly in love. Not to put them down necessarily. I bought it immediately on my first viewing. Just an observation.

I will say, I’ve wondered if the Spectre romance was difficult to write as I think we AND Bond were to be surprised that he found love again as opposed to watching him fall unguardedly in love in CR. This is why I think they had Madeleine say ILY first. Because Bond wouldn’t have just let his guard down again. However, the writing suffered for sure. But I think the intent and bones were there.

I do think there are moments that showed much promise. Feyador already mentioned a few. I think their dinner scene is also quite good but needed a little extra time before Hinx showed up. After the fight, when they are kissing in the cabin, Bond pulls back to look at her as if he’s realizing what’s in front of him. There are subtle moments like that. But the third act really goes off the rails.

thelivingroyale

I always liked her to be honest. The “I love you” in Spectre came out of the blue, but I thought that was the point. The way I always read it in that film was she’s a woman with serious daddy issues, while Bond is just looking for a way out after that tape reminds him of Vesper, and how close he once came to a normal life. Madeline gives him that opportunity in a way other Bond girls couldn’t, because she’s as damaged as he is, and has her own tortured past thanks to assassins and spies, so he wouldn’t be burdening her with his baggage, because she’s from his world. Bond doesn’t actually say he loves her until the end of NTTD, which I think is notable, because he said it to Vesper after what, a few days of knowing eachother? He cared about Madeline obviously. But I don’t think he really, truly realised he loved her until he saw her again in London, and realised how empty his life had been since he put her on the train. They were two damaged people who threw themselves at eachother in a desperate attempt to fix their own issues (SP) but then ended genuinely falling for eachother in the process (NTTD). The whole thing worked for me, but then I am a much bigger fan of Spectre than most seem to be.

I do agree though @peter. I thought the relationship in Spectre worked for what it was, but I wouldn’t have called her one of the great Bond girls. But now they’ve developed that relationship further, and had it blossom into something genuinely real, she’s definitely up there for me.

BlondeBond

thelivingroyale wrote: »

I always liked her to be honest. The “I love you” in Spectre came out of the blue, but I thought that was the point. The way I always read it in that film was she’s a woman with serious daddy issues, while Bond is just looking for a way out after that tape reminds him of Vesper, and how close he once came to a normal life. Madeline gives him that opportunity in a way other Bond girls couldn’t, because she’s as damaged as he is, and has her own tortured past thanks to the assassin/spy world, so he wouldn’t feel guilty about his own baggage. Bond doesn’t actually say he loves her until the end of NTTD, which I think is notable. I don’t think he really, truly realised he loved her until he saw her again in London, and realised how empty his life had been since he put her on the train. They were two damaged people who threw themselves at eachother in a desperate attempt to fix their own issues (SP) but then ended genuinely falling for eachother in the process (NTTD). The whole thing worked for me, but then I am a much bigger fan of Spectre than most seem to be.

I do agree though @peter. I thought the relationship in Spectre worked for what it was, but I wouldn’t have called her one of the great Bond girls. But now they’ve developed that relationship further, and had it blossom into something genuinely real, she’s definitely up there for me.

He does say Je t’aime at the beginning of NTTD. But I agree with you that they withheld the actual confession in English until the right moment. It felt earned.

thelivingroyale

BlondeBond wrote: »

thelivingroyale wrote: »

I always liked her to be honest. The “I love you” in Spectre came out of the blue, but I thought that was the point. The way I always read it in that film was she’s a woman with serious daddy issues, while Bond is just looking for a way out after that tape reminds him of Vesper, and how close he once came to a normal life. Madeline gives him that opportunity in a way other Bond girls couldn’t, because she’s as damaged as he is, and has her own tortured past thanks to the assassin/spy world, so he wouldn’t feel guilty about his own baggage. Bond doesn’t actually say he loves her until the end of NTTD, which I think is notable. I don’t think he really, truly realised he loved her until he saw her again in London, and realised how empty his life had been since he put her on the train. They were two damaged people who threw themselves at eachother in a desperate attempt to fix their own issues (SP) but then ended genuinely falling for eachother in the process (NTTD). The whole thing worked for me, but then I am a much bigger fan of Spectre than most seem to be.

I do agree though @peter. I thought the relationship in Spectre worked for what it was, but I wouldn’t have called her one of the great Bond girls. But now they’ve developed that relationship further, and had it blossom into something genuinely real, she’s definitely up there for me.

He does say Je t’aime at the beginning of NTTD. But I agree with you that they withheld the actual confession in English until the right moment. It felt earned.

Oh, there goes that theory then haha. But yeah, it definitely felt earned by the end anyway.

jobo

Jordo007 wrote: »

Venutius wrote: »

Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

Agree with your post mate, you're right.

It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

A completely out of character moment

Did it portray him as 'undesirable', though? I don't think it did. If the fact that a girl doesn't want to have sex with a man she met 30 seconds earlier makes him look undesirable, I am very curious to know what type of women you usually meet on a day to day basis... ;) Not to mention, she's on her first big job and nervous.

The last scene with Paloma and the delivery of her final line makes it very clear that she indeed found him desirable if you ask me.

Jordo007

jobo wrote: »

Jordo007 wrote: »

Venutius wrote: »

Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

Agree with your post mate, you're right.

It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

A completely out of character moment

Did it portray him as 'undesirable', though? I don't think it did. If the fact that a girl doesn't want to have sex with a man she met 30 seconds earlier makes him look undesirable, I am very curious to know what type of women you usually meet on a day to day basis... ;) Not to mention, she's on her first big job and nervous.

The last scene with Paloma and the delivery of her final line makes it very clear that she indeed found him desirable if you ask me.

Haha well none now I'm all but married off 😉

That's good point by the way, I keep forgetting about the nervous element, that was such a small but good addition to her character

I love the little acting touches from Lea early in the film, playing with Bond's hair while he's driving, putting on her lipstick when Bond comes back to the room. It makes her character and the story feel very real.
The look she gave when Bond put her on the train was heartbreaking. It had my Mrs in bits in the cinema, I got a dig to the ribs and she whispered "don't ever do that to me" haha cheers Bond

jobo

Jordo007 wrote: »

jobo wrote: »

Jordo007 wrote: »

Venutius wrote: »

Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

Agree with your post mate, you're right.

It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

A completely out of character moment

Did it portray him as 'undesirable', though? I don't think it did. If the fact that a girl doesn't want to have sex with a man she met 30 seconds earlier makes him look undesirable, I am very curious to know what type of women you usually meet on a day to day basis... ;) Not to mention, she's on her first big job and nervous.

The last scene with Paloma and the delivery of her final line makes it very clear that she indeed found him desirable if you ask me.

Haha well none now I'm all but married off 😉

That's good point by the way, I keep forgetting about the nervous element, that was such a small but good addition to her character

I love the little acting touches from Lea early in the film, playing with Bond's hair while he's driving, putting on her lipstick when Bond comes back to the room. It makes her character and the story feel very real.
The look she gave when Bond put her on the train was heartbreaking. It had my Mrs in bits in the cinema, I got a dig to the ribs and she whispered "don't ever do that to me" haha cheers Bond

So how soon after you first met did you and your wife... no, I'm not gonna go there ;)

That scene on the train is indeed superbly acted. As are the scenes in the car prior to that. I don't know how people can say there is no chemistry there. They don't act like two horny lovebirds, sure, but that shouldn't be the point.

Jordo007

Haha no comment

Madeline might not be my favourite character but that's no reflection on Lea, she is a superb actress. I just wish Madeline was written better in Spectre, so that NTTD wasn't as focused on her

4EverBonded

jobo wrote: »

Jordo007 wrote: »

Venutius wrote: »

Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

Agree with your post mate, you're right.

It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

A completely out of character moment

Did it portray him as 'undesirable', though? I don't think it did. If the fact that a girl doesn't want to have sex with a man she met 30 seconds earlier makes him look undesirable, I am very curious to know what type of women you usually meet on a day to day basis... ;) Not to mention, she's on her first big job and nervous.

The last scene with Paloma and the delivery of her final line makes it very clear that she indeed found him desirable if you ask me.

Oh hey, great point. Exactly. ;)

echo

jobo wrote: »

Jordo007 wrote: »

Venutius wrote: »

Although he's definitely up for it with Nomi til she puts the block on. Similarly, his eyes light up after Paloma pulls him into the room and starts to unbutton his shirt - Bond doesn't stop her, it's Paloma that backs off and tells him he's got the wrong idea; she even pulls a bemused face at the very thought. As soon as Paloma's made it clear that she's not interested, he's literally hands-off with her and becomes courteous and respectful of her. In the light of Fukunaga's comment that Connery's Bond was a rapist, I suspect that this part of the scene was done to demonstrate that CraigBond actually does take no for answer. Righting historical wrongs and all that.

Agree with your post mate, you're right.

It's a shame that the producers felt they had to right historical wrongs, instead of just telling the story within the world of the 5 film arc they've created.

I don't think Craig's Bond has ever been creepy with women, it's a shame they had to give him a scene were he came across as out of touch and even undesirable, to hammer home how progressive this era is. Instead of being subtle as they have been in recent times

A completely out of character moment

Did it portray him as 'undesirable', though? I don't think it did. If the fact that a girl doesn't want to have sex with a man she met 30 seconds earlier makes him look undesirable, I am very curious to know what type of women you usually meet on a day to day basis... ;) Not to mention, she's on her first big job and nervous.

The last scene with Paloma and the delivery of her final line makes it very clear that she indeed found him desirable if you ask me.

She's pretending to be on her first job.

Stamper

I love how Paloma turns around to let him dress and then turns back to answer.
It completely fizzles the whole "do you mind turning around" thing and show her character as kirky.

I agree there are tons of layers in NTTD. People should stop putting the current politics in it when they aren't there. They all see what they want to see rather than what is.

For example Nomi isn't a try at replacing Bond for real. It's a wink to current politics, fun the EON team are having with current trends, but not giving up to them. The Bond films always reflects modern trends. In LALD, for example, Moore 007 totally went Blaxploitation, and it was fun. There was no white heterosexual race extermination agenda then or now.

There is in the real world from a vocal minority of extremists, but that is not the debate here.