Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited December 2021 Posts: 8,217
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Seen some unbelievable criticism of Vic Armstrong’s work on the Bond movies here.The man is a legend.He did the incredible jump from the horse onto the tank in Last Crusade,as well as many other memorable stunts on so many movies.


    As a stunt performer, yes. He's a legend.

    But the criticism is of his second unit directing, not of his stunt performing. They're two different things.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Seen some unbelievable criticism of Vic Armstrong’s work on the Bond movies here.The man is a legend.He did the incredible jump from the horse onto the tank in Last Crusade,as well as many other memorable stunts on so many movies.


    As a stunt performer, yes. He's a legend.

    But the criticism is of his second unit directing, not of his stunt performing. They're two different things.

    Exactly. There’s a very monotonous stage-y approach from Armstrong when it comes to his action sequences which is why I sort of lump TND/TWINE/DAD altogether as forgettable action films. Like, I dunno how the hell you can take an inherently awesome concept like BUZZSAW HELICOPTERS and make it boring to watch. That’s kind of amazing.

    There are rare standouts. The sword fight in DAD is refreshing because for once Bond isn’t involved in yet another machine gun fire fight… okay, I lied out of trying to be generous for the sake of positivity. I can’t think of another rare standout sequence. It’s all a cacophony of noise.

    I’d love to know why EON didn’t go back to Armstrong after three consecutive films, because I’m glad we got Alexander Witt instead (if only he had done QOS instead of Dan Bradley).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Oh well, the bashing is back in full force.
    From purely an action perspective, the only film that disappointed me from Dalton until now has been Skyfall.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I’m not bashing, I’m criticizing. ;)
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Oh well, the bashing is back in full force.
    From purely an action perspective, the only film that disappointed me from Dalton until now has been Skyfall.

    I thought all the Patrice stuff was pretty fantastic. Maybe there wasn't enough of it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I’m not bashing, I’m criticizing. ;)

    Well then I'm criticizing your criticizing. From another thread, written with you partially in mind:
    This is my rant: BIAS. We all have some. Recognizing it makes for better debates. Like when one cites lazy writing and another defends their favourite movie to the hilt instead of just saying, "You're right, but I like it anyway."
    I love TMWTGG, and I'd say the preponderance of peeps here do not. There is a LOT this movie does not have going for it, but I like it anyway. This is my bias. I am not Craig's biggest fan, but I am Brosnan & Dalton's. This is my bias.
    I don't like Skyfall. But if it starred Dalton I'd probably give the lazy writing in that a totally free pass. CR is a near perfect film, but it never shows up in my top 5. If Brosnan starred in it, you better believe it'd be there.
    /rant
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @MakeshiftPython there are many stunt coordinators who would agree with you. He was known as a magnificent performer. However, his stunt coordinating and his second unit work leaves much to be desired amongst his peers (I’m working with one, and he uses very colorful language to describe Armstrong’s work in this regard).

    But in the end, we as viewers do have a right to dislike the visual set pieces we are watching. And I happen to agree with your points— you’re respectful, observant and you’re not bashing.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    peter wrote: »
    I happen to agree with your points— you’re respectful, observant and you’re not bashing.
    Maybe it's because I grew up with Connery & Moore, but I never looked to Bond movies to give me the same level of hand to hand action I got from Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan movies... to ME Bond is an amazing improviser, not a classical (or non-classical for that matter) martial artist.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I’m not bashing, I’m criticizing. ;)

    Well then I'm criticizing your criticizing. From another thread, written with you partially in mind:
    This is my rant: BIAS. We all have some. Recognizing it makes for better debates. Like when one cites lazy writing and another defends their favourite movie to the hilt instead of just saying, "You're right, but I like it anyway."
    I love TMWTGG, and I'd say the preponderance of peeps here do not. There is a LOT this movie does not have going for it, but I like it anyway. This is my bias. I am not Craig's biggest fan, but I am Brosnan & Dalton's. This is my bias.
    I don't like Skyfall. But if it starred Dalton I'd probably give the lazy writing in that a totally free pass. CR is a near perfect film, but it never shows up in my top 5. If Brosnan starred in it, you better believe it'd be there.
    /rant

    This is where you and I differ.

    Over the years I’ve come to realize that I don’t really have a “favorite” Bond actor that would color my views on a film like it apparently does for you. You have Brosnan hitting your sweet spot that if he were in CR you’d admit to ranking it higher, but I dont have an equivalent. I pick Connery as my favorite Bond because he’s the most iconic, but I don’t think he magically makes a film better with his mere presence. I don’t think he’s good in YOLT, for example. And while I wish he had done OHMSS, I actually feel the same about Moore though admittedly that’s because it would be interesting to see him START his tenure, and wonder how much of that debut would change the trajectory of his run.

    I like Daniel Craig, but I’m ready to move on without him. I’m ready for a younger actor. A common thing I’ve noticed was fans saying they’d like to see Brosnan do a one-off Old Man Bond. I don’t, and the same applies to Dalton and Craig. I wish Dalton had done more films, but only 30 years ago. Not today. Not ever.

    It’s a young man’s game, and I’m ready to dispassionately and disrespectfully shovel aside Craig Bond‘s charred remains to make way for a new guy.

    I’ve been highly critical of David Arnold. What he did in TND is not what I want out of Bond music. That said, I greatly appreciate his score for QOS more and more over the years. I wish he was that interesting from the start, but better late than never I suppose.

    If I have any biases, it’s that I wish John Barry had scored every Bond film up til his death. Even then, I still live what Eric Serra brought in GE and would never want to replace that with a proper new John Barry score, as much as that pains me to say!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited December 2021 Posts: 9,509
    @chrisisall ... I think you may be misunderstanding me; I've seen Enter The Dragon once-- like 20 years ago when I was very high. I don't watch Jackie Chan films-- it doesn't interest me. I don't watch Fast and Furious Films and I don't particularly find myself warm to Jason Statham films (although I did find his last one with Guy Ritchie kinda cool).

    My childhood was spent watching Connery-Bond on video with my Dad. Connery was King in our house. We also watched a healthy dose of the original Star Trek on TV, and their follow up films; Superman films were a fave; I watched Adam West's Batman in repeats (religiously)... Etc.. My point is these films you cite weren't something I ever looked at, and I certainly never asked a Bond film to be Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee....???

    Added edit: I just never felt anything but cold towards Armstrong's work in his Bond years. It was always flat and uninteresting to me. But I've never once said anything to indicate to you that you should change your opinion on the man, have I?

    Also i am working with a famous second unit and stunt coordinator on a project that he is directing of mine, and yes, when Armstrong has been brought up (both of us being Bond fans), he was honest in his assesment... And a lot of guys from Brand X Stunts will likely say the same to you.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think the Vic Armstrong discussion is getting muddled. My criticisms of his direction have NOTHING to do with how he shows Brosnan in fight scenes, it’s about how EVERYTHING is staged in a way that it loses my suspension of disbelief.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,425
    peter wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython there are many stunt coordinators who would agree with you. He was known as a magnificent performer. However, his stunt coordinating and his second unit work leaves much to be desired amongst his peers (I’m working with one, and he uses very colorful language to describe Armstrong’s work in this regard).

    But in the end, we as viewers do have a right to dislike the visual set pieces we are watching. And I happen to agree with your points— you’re respectful, observant and you’re not bashing.

    Yes indeed, I think the ski chase in TWINE is a particular low point: incredibly stagey and utterly unexciting. I’d say it’s maybe the worst Bond action scene, but I couldn’t really do that with DAF’s Moon Buggy chase in the world. I mean, what is that? :D

    I remember someone a while ago saying of Armstrong’s 2nd Unit stuff that he shot everything from half a mile away; hard to disagree! :)
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    I think the Vic Armstrong discussion is getting muddled. My criticisms of his direction have NOTHING to do with how he shows Brosnan in fight scenes, it’s about how EVERYTHING is staged in a way that it loses my suspension of disbelief.

    I don't know your personal history of fight training, but my suspension of disbelief is in full force in MOST theatrical fight scenes. Movie fights rarely resemble real fights. ESPECIALLY in big movies like the Bonds. The QOS knife fight was probably the closest to 'realism' Bond ever had....
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @MakeshiftPython I also was not discussing Armstrong directing Brosnan in fight scenes (although I personally don't believe Brozz in a punch up, and think Roger in TMWTGG jumping on goons in the belly dancer's room, was infinitely more believable as a fight(he had size)), but rather I was talking about Armstrong's composition of action sequences. It's just bland and unexciting to me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    See, there is not a moment of action in TND I'm not fully entertained by, even the machine gun junk that most seem to give a free pass to GE for....
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    mtm wrote: »
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.

    Those are great, indeed. Inventive and exciting.

    And, to be fair, I think the car ice chase in DAD is fairly well staged, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure it's probably hard to craft a sequence like that when you are obligated to work in a gazillion gadgets to the sequence too - especially when it results in the vehicles basically just firing rockets of increasing size at each other. I'll cut him some slack for that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    chrisisall wrote: »
    See, there is not a moment of action in TND I'm not fully entertained by, even the machine gun junk that most seem to give a free pass to GE for....

    An argument can definitely made that it started in GE, but I’d argue it was kept to a reasonable amount, and was offset by some pretty good beats like when Bond fights Trevelyan hand to hand in the climax. But with the next three films there seemed to be an even stronger emphasis on machine gunplay. And the few times it would go hand to hand like during the sub in TWINE, it’s aggressively unexciting.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    mtm wrote: »
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.

    Those are great, indeed. Inventive and exciting.

    And, to be fair, I think the car ice chase in DAD is fairly well staged, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure it's probably hard to craft a sequence like that when you are obligated to work in a gazillion gadgets to the sequence too - especially when it results in the vehicles basically just firing rockets of increasing size at each other. I'll cut him some slack for that.

    I actually like the ice chase in DAD, up until things start getting invisible.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @mtm I agree that the PTS in TND moves very well and is pretty awesome , but, and I could be wrong, I think this has more to do with the editing... It's slick.

    Back Seat Driver was fun, but I do want more danger...The goons Bond was up against felt like buffoons. They posed no threat to Bond, so although I wanted to take a drive in that BMW, I knew he'd end up A-OK, so all tension was stripped of the scene for me.

    It felt as fun and as empty as rollercoaster for me, and perhaps that is my fault-- I love tension and conflict in my action (think the first Die Hard), and my feelings are impotent to Back Seat Driver.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    mtm wrote: »
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.

    Those are great, indeed. Inventive and exciting.

    And, to be fair, I think the car ice chase in DAD is fairly well staged, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure it's probably hard to craft a sequence like that when you are obligated to work in a gazillion gadgets to the sequence too - especially when it results in the vehicles basically just firing rockets of increasing size at each other. I'll cut him some slack for that.

    I actually like the ice chase in DAD, up until things start getting invisible.

    It's hard to not get swept up in the indulgence of the pyrotechnics amidst all that wonderful scenery, for sure!
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    it’s aggressively unexciting.

    Award for the most original version of 'meh'!!!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    chrisisall wrote: »
    it’s aggressively unexciting.

    Award for the most original version of 'meh'!!!

    the-mask-award.gif
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    chrisisall wrote: »
    it’s aggressively unexciting.

    Award for the most original version of 'meh'!!!

    the-mask-award.gif

    Well. I LIKE you.... ;)
  • mtm wrote: »
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.

    Those are great, indeed. Inventive and exciting.

    And, to be fair, I think the car ice chase in DAD is fairly well staged, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure it's probably hard to craft a sequence like that when you are obligated to work in a gazillion gadgets to the sequence too - especially when it results in the vehicles basically just firing rockets of increasing size at each other. I'll cut him some slack for that.

    I actually like the ice chase in DAD, up until things start getting invisible.
    I’ll confess - I actually don’t mind the invisible car OR the surfing scene. Growing up with the early 2000’s movies that for the most part, had bad CGI, the surfing scene doesn’t bother me.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,553
    mtm wrote: »
    But then he was involved on the TND PTS and BMW chase, which I’ll happily give him much praise for.

    Those are great, indeed. Inventive and exciting.

    And, to be fair, I think the car ice chase in DAD is fairly well staged, as ridiculous as it is. I'm sure it's probably hard to craft a sequence like that when you are obligated to work in a gazillion gadgets to the sequence too - especially when it results in the vehicles basically just firing rockets of increasing size at each other. I'll cut him some slack for that.

    I actually like the ice chase in DAD, up until things start getting invisible.
    I’ll confess - I actually don’t mind the invisible car OR the surfing scene. Growing up with the early 2000’s movies that for the most part, had bad CGI, the surfing scene doesn’t bother me.

    Fair enough. I feel similarly about the surfing; it's bad, but it doesn't make me as upset as it seems to make some people.
  • Posts: 1,394
    In Vic Armstrong’s book,he praises Pierce Brosnan very highly both in terms of being a fantastic Bond,as well as being very adept with the fight scenes.

    He also doesn’t hide his disgust of the ice surfing scene.He thought it ruined a lot of the great practical fx and real stunts that were used on the film.Maybe this is why he either was not asked back or maybe had no intention of coming back?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    It’s too bad David Arnold wasn’t given the boot like Vic Armstrong. CR could use a better score.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    It’s too bad David Arnold wasn’t given the boot like Vic Armstrong. CR could use a better score.

    He gave CR the score that was asked for, his score for QOS was better because they relaxed the restrictions.
  • It’s too bad David Arnold wasn’t given the boot like Vic Armstrong. CR could use a better score.

    How strong is your dislike for Arnold’s music? I’ve never really thought of him as the true successor to John Barry like a lot of others tend to think of him, but I get the impression your just not a huge fan of the mans input. How come if I may ask? I’ve always felt it serviceable at best
  • Posts: 1,394
    David Arnold saved Bond music.
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