Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • edited November 2021 Posts: 12,837
    chrisisall wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I'm not on here trying to create an echo chamber. I just think Brosnan sucks as a fighter. I always have Before Craig (BC), and I will always think this. I also believe Vic Armstrong did no favours for the series either, if I'm to be honest.
    Would you have had Yuen Woo-Ping train & instruct Brosnan how to fight convincingly then? Was Vic just too conventionally unconventional for you?
    Know what? In The Man With The Golden Gun during the kung fu craze when I was taking my first martial arts classes, I didn't hate on the fight scenes. They were for fun. Enter The Dragon & Fists Of Fury (Chinese Connection back then) were for us fight nuts.

    At the end of the day though these are action films, so I don’t see anything wrong with holding the action to high standards. I guess it’s unrealistic to expect a 90s Bond film to have the calibre of fights you’d expect from Asian action movies, but Green 4 vs Necros wasn’t that long ago, and the fight scenes in Goldeneye were good. So, I’m finding it hard to defend the panto fights in TND personally. Not Brosnan’s fault, he was fine in GE when he had a good director and decent choreography behind him. But I do think they were poor.

    I don’t see why there should be a distinction in standards between Bond films and films for fight nuts either. In Roger Moore’s time maybe that was fair. But by the 90s we were importing plenty of martial artists, and western action scenes in general had seen a bit of a step up, so I’m having a hard time excusing them myself. Reminds me of coming out of NTTD, when I was disappointed at the lack of inventive setpieces and big stunts (CR was the last film to really impress me in that department, but that was an exception, we’ve generally been going downhill since John Glen left). At first I thought, am I being unfair? The action was shot very well for the most part, and had a nice visceral quality to it. And should we really expect Bond to match Tom Cruise’s stunts? But then I thought actually, Bond is meant to be the king of the genre. So, no excuses imo, and the same applies to Brosnan’s fights. I think it’s fair to say they should have been better.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    chrisisall wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    I'm not on here trying to create an echo chamber. I just think Brosnan sucks as a fighter. I always have Before Craig (BC), and I will always think this. I also believe Vic Armstrong did no favours for the series either, if I'm to be honest.
    Would you have had Yuen Woo-Ping train & instruct Brosnan how to fight convincingly then? Was Vic just too conventionally unconventional for you?
    Know what? In The Man With The Golden Gun during the kung fu craze when I was taking my first martial arts classes, I didn't hate on the fight scenes. They were for fun. Enter The Dragon & Fists Of Fury (Chinese Connection back then) were for us fight nuts.

    At the end of the day though these are action films, so I don’t see anything wrong with holding the action to high standards. I guess it’s unrealistic to expect a 90s Bond film to have the calibre of fights you’d expect from Asian action movies, but Green 4 vs Necros wasn’t that long ago, and the fight scenes in Goldeneye were good. So, I’m finding it hard to defend the panto fights in TND personally. Not Brosnan’s fault, he was fine in GE when he had a good director and decent choreography behind him. But I do think they were poor.

    I don’t see why there should be a distinction in standards between Bond films and films for fight nuts either. In Roger Moore’s time maybe that was fair. But by the 90s we were importing plenty of martial artists, and western action scenes in general had seen a bit of a step up, so I’m having a hard time excusing them myself. Reminds me of coming out of NTTD, when I was disappointed at the lack of inventive setpieces and big stunts (CR was the last film to really impress me in that department, but that was an exception, we’ve generally been going downhill since John Glen left). At first I thought, am I being unfair? The action was shot very well for the most part, and had a nice visceral quality to it. And should we really expect Bond to match Tom Cruise’s stunts? But then I thought actually, Bond is meant to be the king of the genre. So, no excuses imo, and the same applies to Brosnan’s fights. I think it’s fair to say they should have been better.

    +1
  • Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.


    I never noticed anything wrong there but then I don’t obsessively nitpick screen fights.

    Could be worse. I could be obsessing over Brie Larson on YouTube for three years

    Well it’s a good thing you don’t do that.You could try being polite to other forum members you have disagreements over Bond with though.



  • Posts: 1,394
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    Wow.Just wow.Vic Armstrong is a LEGEND in the film industry.Besides his Bond work,he’s worked on Indiana Jones,Superman,Krull,and countless action films.Hes one of the very best stuntmen/action co ordinators of all time.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.


    I never noticed anything wrong there but then I don’t obsessively nitpick screen fights.

    Could be worse. I could be obsessing over Brie Larson on YouTube for three years

    Well it’s a good thing you don’t do that.You could try being polite to other forum members you have disagreements over Bond with though.



    Naaahhh. I only show such courtesy to those that earn my respect. Or at least half of them.
  • Posts: 1,394
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.


    I never noticed anything wrong there but then I don’t obsessively nitpick screen fights.

    Could be worse. I could be obsessing over Brie Larson on YouTube for three years

    Well it’s a good thing you don’t do that.You could try being polite to other forum members you have disagreements over Bond with though.



    Naaahhh. I only show such courtesy to those that earn my respect. Or at least half of them.

    Well I couldn’t care less about earning your respect as you clearly like to insult people you disagree with so I’ll just ignore you from now on.

  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,546
    YM1IhT5ruD1oXe2SHKPf9uTem4b2m0U-KZ4lZRO4x04.jpg?auto=webp&s=a82b6fb9a983ff4df10bc3f20a0357dcf2fbc120

    You're gonna make Natalya cry.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    YM1IhT5ruD1oXe2SHKPf9uTem4b2m0U-KZ4lZRO4x04.jpg?auto=webp&s=a82b6fb9a983ff4df10bc3f20a0357dcf2fbc120

    You're gonna make Natalya cry.

    :))
  • Posts: 1,394
    YM1IhT5ruD1oXe2SHKPf9uTem4b2m0U-KZ4lZRO4x04.jpg?auto=webp&s=a82b6fb9a983ff4df10bc3f20a0357dcf2fbc120

    You're gonna make Natalya cry.

    Standard operating procedure 😉

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    That’s another problem. Brosnan’s had no chemistry with his leading ladies except Natalya.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    I thought he had plenty of chemistry with Wai Lin. The issue is that the film forced it to be romantic chemistry in the end whereas they were far better as competitors in the first half of the film. They bounced nicely off each other.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    I thought he had plenty of chemistry with Wai Lin. The issue is that the film forced it to be romantic chemistry in the end whereas they were far better as competitors in the first half of the film. They bounced nicely off each other.

    I agree with this.
  • Posts: 1,394
    I thought he had plenty of chemistry with Wai Lin. The issue is that the film forced it to be romantic chemistry in the end whereas they were far better as competitors in the first half of the film. They bounced nicely off each other.

    I dunno if I agree with that.I thought Brosnan had good chemistry with all his leading ladies.Particularly Sophie Marceau in TWINE.

    As for Michelle Yeoh,TND was my introduction to her and Iv been a massive fan since.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I thought he had plenty of chemistry with Wai Lin. The issue is that the film forced it to be romantic chemistry in the end whereas they were far better as competitors in the first half of the film. They bounced nicely off each other.

    I dunno if I agree with that.

    Which part?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    Wow.Just wow.Vic Armstrong is a LEGEND in the film industry.Besides his Bond work,he’s worked on Indiana Jones,Superman,Krull,and countless action films.Hes one of the very best stuntmen/action co ordinators of all time.

    This.

    Also, Brosnan was all over his leading ladies! Even when they passed on... ;)
  • Posts: 1,394
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    Wow.Just wow.Vic Armstrong is a LEGEND in the film industry.Besides his Bond work,he’s worked on Indiana Jones,Superman,Krull,and countless action films.Hes one of the very best stuntmen/action co ordinators of all time.

    This.

    Also, Brosnan was all over his leading ladies! Even when they passed on... ;)

    😂😂😂😂😂😂

  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    Wow.Just wow.Vic Armstrong is a LEGEND in the film industry.Besides his Bond work,he’s worked on Indiana Jones,Superman,Krull,and countless action films.Hes one of the very best stuntmen/action co ordinators of all time.

    Cracking stuntman but I do think his work as co-ordinator was pretty hit and miss. What we’ve had since has been hit and miss too to be fair, but CR was the only Bond since GE that I’d say had exceptional action scenes, so on balance I think getting rid of him was a wise decision.

    Just a shame they haven’t been able to keep that standard up since really, but I thought NTTD was a step back in the right direction. They bought the intensity back that I missed in the action scenes of the Mendes movies. Now they just need to combine it with some inventive stuntwork.
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    Wow.Just wow.Vic Armstrong is a LEGEND in the film industry.Besides his Bond work,he’s worked on Indiana Jones,Superman,Krull,and countless action films.Hes one of the very best stuntmen/action co ordinators of all time.

    Cracking stuntman but I do think his work as co-ordinator was pretty hit and miss. What we’ve had since has been hit and miss too to be fair, but CR was the only Bond since GE that I’d say had exceptional action scenes, so on balance I think getting rid of him was a wise decision.

    Just a shame they haven’t been able to keep that standard up since really, but I thought NTTD was a step back in the right direction. They bought the intensity back that I missed in the action scenes of the Mendes movies. Now they just need to combine it with some inventive stuntwork.

    Yes, THIS - come up with slightly more interesting stunt work - let CJF direct again and we are good to go
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Let's not forget editing has a lot to do with whether the fights end up believable or not
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 526
    I’m not a Brosnan fan, so that hurts it right out of the gate. Specifically, the pacing of this movie makes it feel like its 4 hours long. It has been a long time since I’ve watched it. Saw it at the the theatre, then at home of course.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    Posts: 541
    After watching every Brosnan film this week, I think TND might be my least favorite.

    Even Die Another Day slightly above TND. I felt like Brosnan's performance was better in DAD. Halle Berry > Michelle Yeoh. I found the plots in neither film to be believable, but at least DAD had more imagination and a better color palette. And at least DAD had a good first half; with TND, neither half was good.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    After watching every Brosnan film this week, I think TND might be my least favorite.

    Even Die Another Day slightly above TND. I felt like Brosnan's performance was better in DAD. Halle Berry > Michelle Yeoh. I found the plots in neither film to be believable, but at least DAD had more imagination and a better color palette. And at least DAD had a good first half; with TND, neither half was good.

    Agree with all that.
    GE is Brosnan’s best
    TWINE is Brosnan’s most interesting
    DAD is Brosnan’s best performance as Bond.

    TND is meh
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    edited November 2021 Posts: 541
    Can I just say, wtf is Brosnan's facial expression while he's being strangled; it's like the same expression in every film. And it just looks weird and overdone.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @M16_Cart ... You're a brave man. You're correct. But brave.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    Can I just say, wtf is Brosnan's facial expression while he's being strangled; it's like the same expression in every film. And it just looks weird and overdone.

    PAIN FACE!!

    I even made a video of it, it’s glorious.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    It is an unfortunate choice of expression. But it's right up there with Roger's "Ooooooh" in that it has an amusing charm for me.
  • edited November 2021 Posts: 1,394
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    Can I just say, wtf is Brosnan's facial expression while he's being strangled; it's like the same expression in every film. And it just looks weird and overdone.

    That’s nothing compared to Daniel Craig’s pursing his lips like he’s trying to kiss his opponent in some of his fight scenes in his first two Bond movies.

    ( To be fair I think someone told him this looked silly as he didn’t really do this from SF onward ).







  • AstonLotus wrote: »
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    Can I just say, wtf is Brosnan's facial expression while he's being strangled; it's like the same expression in every film. And it just looks weird and overdone.

    That’s nothing compared to Daniel Craig’s pursing his lips like he’s trying to kiss his opponent in some of his fight scenes in his first two Bond movies.

    ( To be fair I think someone told him this looked silly as he didn’t really do this from SF onward ).

    I like Brosnan too mate but I think you’re reaching a bit here. I’ve literally never seen that mentioned before, nor have I ever noticed that myself, while the pain face is the stuff of fan legend.

    I agree with @CraigMooreOHMSS though, it’s part of the fun of watching a Brosnan film for me.
    M16_Cart wrote: »
    After watching every Brosnan film this week, I think TND might be my least favorite.

    Even Die Another Day slightly above TND. I felt like Brosnan's performance was better in DAD. Halle Berry > Michelle Yeoh. I found the plots in neither film to be believable, but at least DAD had more imagination and a better color palette. And at least DAD had a good first half; with TND, neither half was good.

    I’d struggle to call DAD a better film (I think TND is solid personally, it’s just insanely bland) but yeah, it has much more entertainment value imo, even if that’s in a “so bad it’s good” sort of way by the end. You’re right about the colour palette too, and say what you will about Tamahori but at least his direction is full of pace and energy. DAD may be a trainwreck, but it’s never boring. And I’d rather watch something campy and shlocky like that than something generic like TND.

    I think that was probably why DAD did manage to get some praise at first. It’s easy to forget now, but there were a fair few fans and critics who thought it was an improvement on the last two at the time. I think that’s because TND and (as much as I love it) TWINE do feel like bland 90s action movies aesthetically. DAD is more colourful and it’s less afraid of looking like a Bond film. The Cuba scenes in particular feel very old school Bond at times. It’s just a shame they tried to match that with that naff early 2000s action movie vibe (although I do like a couple of the sped up shots to be honest).
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    What makes the PAIN FACE complete though is all the ADR of Brosnan’s elongating groaning and moans. That’s why I included so much of it in the video! Even one of his terrible one-liners is groaned through.

    “ONE… LAHHSST… SCREEEEWWWW”

    And to be fair, it’s not a criticism of Brosnan. I think it’s highly entertaining even if it’s not exactly the reaction Brosnan meant to elicit from audiences.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    TND is found guilty of playing it safe to simply deliver a supremely entertaining Bond move that mostly hits the marks that make you grin & leaves the really edgy stuff to other entries. Because it achieved its goal so profoundly, I hereby grant it a pardon. ;)
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