No Time To Die: Why It Should Not Have Been Made (The Way It Was)

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Comments

  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    TripAces wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I disagree with the idea that Craig era was successful. At making money, yes, definitely, and maybe that matters the most in the short term, but the legacy of the Craig era is just death of nearly every major character. Ever since SF these movies have been so obsessed with death that it became stifling, and it made the movies extremely moribund. Death has always been a theme in the books and movies but it was always offset by cleverness, humor, romance, and a sense of adventure, none of which any of Craig's post-CR movies have (QOS had some).

    SF and SP don't really have plots in the traditional sense, there's a sense of randomness in these movies, and Mendes seems like he tries to cover up the lack of narrative with tryhard iconic images and lots of long shots of Bond looking moody and walking through empty locations. IMO these movies are lifeless, joyless slogs and there isn't any real depth to them, either. Madeline babbling about "two Jameses" gives the appearance of depth but has no relevance to the actual story. And making MI6 Bond's adoptive family in SF was just weird. Bond isn't looking for family at MI6, he's looking for adventure. Fleming's character has no interest in staying home. MI6 as his family is the last thing he wants. I'm not against the Bond series doing new things but Skyfall did things that don't belong in Bond movies.

    As for NTTD, well I see it as basically Bond succumbing to modern filmmaking trends, and it's clear that it was constructed to see Craig's death wish through. I'd like to ask him why he wanted to kill his character to begin with, and why BB and MGW went with it. All this strikes me as a series that doesn't have any story left to tell and nothing more for its protagonist to do but be perpetually at war with himself. I expect this trend to continue with the next reboot (ugh).

    Man. Where do I begin?

    First, do some research on Fleming and his connection to Carl Jung. This was an "untapped" resource for the writers and directors, and it plays an important role in the Craig era. Go back and review DC's five films and look at how mirror images play a HUGE role in them, especially the CR PTS. We see...two Jameses. That, my friend, is the cinematic equivalent of Jung's "duality of man."

    No, Bond is NOT looking for adventure. Now, I have not read all of Fleming's work, but from what I have read, THIS IS A JOB. And there is an existential crisis that Fleming's Bond is continually battling. Dalton was the first actor to tap into this anguish.

    And I'm not sure what things SF has that should not be in a Bond film. I know that SF doesn't have a Tarzan yell, Beach Boys music, slide whistles, invisible cars, double-taking pigeons, space lazers, etc.

    But setting all of that aside, yes: the franchise made a lot of money with DC and the films were critical successes. He's beloved as Bond; he will be missed; and this era will be looked back on with fondness by millions of fans for decades to come.

    Aside from Bond's spiritual rebirth in YOLT, I don't find much in the way of Jungian psychology in the books, and I've read most of them. I don't doubt that Fleming was interested in psychoanalysis, it was all the rage in the early 20th century and it was all nonsense that's been debunked by actual science (evolutionary psychology, neuroscience etc,), but I don't see the Bond character as dualistic at all. He likes shooting, fighting, women, and gambling, typical traits associated with soldiers and spies. In one of the books he's amused when he's booked on a flight on Friday the 13th and doesn't care that it's seen as unlucky. He likes the danger because it makes him feel alive. It's not a job. The job is just a means, the action is the end.
    And I'm not sure what things SF has that should not be in a Bond film. I know that SF doesn't have a Tarzan yell, Beach Boys music, slide whistles, invisible cars, double-taking pigeons, space lazers, etc.

    I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to gimmicks and action sequences because they are just aesthetic aspects of the movie. What I don't like is fundamentally altering Bond himself the way Skyfall does. Giving him Christ-like qualities (three days in a room and then he re-emerges as a different person, I mean, really?) and a family castle was a distortion of the character, and Mendez admitted to doing it because he liked The Dark Knight so much. Never mind that two movies earlier Bond was described as not coming from money. To me, Bond was never more unrecognizable than he was in Skyfall, not even as a pink tie-wearing lounge lizard in DAF. They took Bond and turned him into a tortured superhero and to me that was a far greater attack on the character than any of DAF, MR's or DAD's action gimmicks.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    This is a fair critique of SF. I also thought it was very strange in that film that Bond had a family manse. Mendes distorted (and bloated) the Bond mythos, and Fukunaga deserves credit for picking up someone else's dream and making more sense of it than the originator...
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    slide_99 wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I disagree with the idea that Craig era was successful. At making money, yes, definitely, and maybe that matters the most in the short term, but the legacy of the Craig era is just death of nearly every major character. Ever since SF these movies have been so obsessed with death that it became stifling, and it made the movies extremely moribund. Death has always been a theme in the books and movies but it was always offset by cleverness, humor, romance, and a sense of adventure, none of which any of Craig's post-CR movies have (QOS had some).

    SF and SP don't really have plots in the traditional sense, there's a sense of randomness in these movies, and Mendes seems like he tries to cover up the lack of narrative with tryhard iconic images and lots of long shots of Bond looking moody and walking through empty locations. IMO these movies are lifeless, joyless slogs and there isn't any real depth to them, either. Madeline babbling about "two Jameses" gives the appearance of depth but has no relevance to the actual story. And making MI6 Bond's adoptive family in SF was just weird. Bond isn't looking for family at MI6, he's looking for adventure. Fleming's character has no interest in staying home. MI6 as his family is the last thing he wants. I'm not against the Bond series doing new things but Skyfall did things that don't belong in Bond movies.

    As for NTTD, well I see it as basically Bond succumbing to modern filmmaking trends, and it's clear that it was constructed to see Craig's death wish through. I'd like to ask him why he wanted to kill his character to begin with, and why BB and MGW went with it. All this strikes me as a series that doesn't have any story left to tell and nothing more for its protagonist to do but be perpetually at war with himself. I expect this trend to continue with the next reboot (ugh).

    Man. Where do I begin?

    First, do some research on Fleming and his connection to Carl Jung. This was an "untapped" resource for the writers and directors, and it plays an important role in the Craig era. Go back and review DC's five films and look at how mirror images play a HUGE role in them, especially the CR PTS. We see...two Jameses. That, my friend, is the cinematic equivalent of Jung's "duality of man."

    No, Bond is NOT looking for adventure. Now, I have not read all of Fleming's work, but from what I have read, THIS IS A JOB. And there is an existential crisis that Fleming's Bond is continually battling. Dalton was the first actor to tap into this anguish.

    And I'm not sure what things SF has that should not be in a Bond film. I know that SF doesn't have a Tarzan yell, Beach Boys music, slide whistles, invisible cars, double-taking pigeons, space lazers, etc.

    But setting all of that aside, yes: the franchise made a lot of money with DC and the films were critical successes. He's beloved as Bond; he will be missed; and this era will be looked back on with fondness by millions of fans for decades to come.

    Aside from Bond's spiritual rebirth in YOLT, I don't find much in the way of Jungian psychology in the books, and I've read most of them. I don't doubt that Fleming was interested in psychoanalysis, it was all the rage in the early 20th century and it was all nonsense that's been debunked by actual science (evolutionary psychology, neuroscience etc,), but I don't see the Bond character as dualistic at all. He likes shooting, fighting, women, and gambling, typical traits associated with soldiers and spies. In one of the books he's amused when he's booked on a flight on Friday the 13th and doesn't care that it's seen as unlucky. He likes the danger because it makes him feel alive. It's not a job. The job is just a means, the action is the end.
    And I'm not sure what things SF has that should not be in a Bond film. I know that SF doesn't have a Tarzan yell, Beach Boys music, slide whistles, invisible cars, double-taking pigeons, space lazers, etc.

    I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to gimmicks and action sequences because they are just aesthetic aspects of the movie. What I don't like is fundamentally altering Bond himself the way Skyfall does. Giving him Christ-like qualities (three days in a room and then he re-emerges as a different person, I mean, really?) and a family castle was a distortion of the character, and Mendez admitted to doing it because he liked The Dark Knight so much. Never mind that two movies earlier Bond was described as not coming from money. To me, Bond was never more unrecognizable than he was in Skyfall, not even as a pink tie-wearing lounge lizard in DAF. They took Bond and turned him into a tortured superhero and to me that was a far greater attack on the character than any of DAF, MR's or DAD's action gimmicks.

    Fleming contacted Jung and actually translated one of Jung's lectures (on Perecelsus). The lecture focused on the topic of alchemy. Admittedly, I don't remember the specifics of that lecture, but Jung was deeply interested in the topic of alchemy and its relationship to psychoanalysis and the concept of individuation. It's the process of the individual to exist, outside of one's "other selves." It's a process of refinement. Hence, the alchemy.

    It is noteworthy that Fleming took an interest in this topic. How/why/to what extent this came into his creation of Bond is open to considerable debate. But I have no doubt that it was tapped into in DC;s era, most notably SF. The entire word association session was 100% Jungian.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,023
    echo wrote: »
    This is a fair critique of SF. I also thought it was very strange in that film that Bond had a family manse. Mendes distorted (and bloated) the Bond mythos, and Fukunaga deserves credit for picking up someone else's dream and making more sense of it than the originator...

    And to think, Fukunaga came on board very late in the game. If there's one impressive thing about NTTD, it's the direction.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I really would like to him return.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.

    I find the points about sf and the mansion and Sp and the sudden inexplicable position of the 00 section (department?) far worse atrocities.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.
    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.
    It just doesn't work, and too complicated to bother even trying to pin together, and considering the Craig-era is already officially considered a rebooted continuity, I can't really ever see it ever being considered otherwise, and I expected the next era to be the same.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.
    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.
    It just doesn't work, and too complicated to bother even trying to pin together, and considering the Craig-era is already officially considered a rebooted continuity, I can't really ever see it ever being considered otherwise, and I expected the next era to be the same.

    Fair enough. For me it works, as pesonally that's they way I've always seen the films. It explains why Bond wasn't hellbent on revenge after Tracy's death, but does drop a random bald guy in a wheelchair down a chimney a couple of films later after visiting her grave.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804

    Fair enough. For me it works, as pesonally that's they way I've always seen the films. It explains why Bond wasn't hellbent on revenge after Tracy's death, but does drop a random bald guy in a wheelchair down a chimney a couple of films later after visiting her grave.
    That was so cool.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.

    I feel like someone (on here?) rearranged all the movies end to end, so you'd start with CR and QoS and then move on to DN, FRWL, etc. Maybe put FYEO after OHMSS. Disgruntled Bond movies like TLD and SF would come later in the run. And end it with NTTD.

    SP is the problem. SP is always the problem.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I'm either blessed or cursed with eyes that don't tend to be so sensitive to what people call bad CGI. The divey plane thing that goes underwater looked fine to me and I didn't even register it as CGI at all, really.

    I remember watching TSWLM recently and it really jumped at me how bad the one effect is of Stromberg’s boat popping out of the Liparus. It’s clearly a toy boat with dolls landing in someone’s bathtub, like something out of DANGER 5. So this narrative that Bond films weren’t “tainted” by bad f/x work until CGI came along is kinda silly to me.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    CraigBond becomes 007 in 2006. There's no way CR and QOS are any kind of spiritual prequels to the others. EON could have gone in that direction but SP and NTTD make it clear that only the events of CR-NTTD happen to Craig's Bond.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,023
    slide_99 wrote: »
    CraigBond becomes 007 in 2006. There's no way CR and QOS are any kind of spiritual prequels to the others. EON could have gone in that direction but SP and NTTD make it clear that only the events of CR-NTTD happen to Craig's Bond.

    CR and QOS are one era of Craig's Bond. SF is a standalone, and SP & NTTD another era. IMO. Works for me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    slide_99 wrote: »
    CraigBond becomes 007 in 2006. There's no way CR and QOS are any kind of spiritual prequels to the others. EON could have gone in that direction but SP and NTTD make it clear that only the events of CR-NTTD happen to Craig's Bond.

    CR and QOS are one era of Craig's Bond. SF is a standalone, and SP & NTTD another era. IMO. Works for me.

    Then only his first era is good...
  • echo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.


    SP is the problem. SP is always the problem.

    Why SP Should Not Have Been Made. At all.

    (You can now look forward to a minimum of 3 posts per day from BSE on this topic, repeating myself over & over & over again...)
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    echo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.


    SP is the problem. SP is always the problem.

    Why SP Should Not Have Been Made. At all.

    (You can now look forward to a minimum of 3 posts per day from BSE on this topic, repeating myself over & over & over again...)

    I'm thinking now that SP really isn't as good as I used to think... I still like it, but it's sinking in my ranking. It was just that I walked into the theatre reluctantly... I was anticipating another time-waster like SF. My expectations were exceedingly low.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.


    SP is the problem. SP is always the problem.

    Why SP Should Not Have Been Made. At all.

    (You can now look forward to a minimum of 3 posts per day from BSE on this topic, repeating myself over & over & over again...)

    I'm thinking now that SP really isn't as good as I used to think... I still like it, but it's sinking in my ranking. It was just that I walked into the theatre reluctantly... I was anticipating another time-waster like SF. My expectations were exceedingly low.

    I once had a very, very low opinion of Moonraker. Nowadays I think it's an amusing little piece of fluff. It's nowhere near one of my favorites...but at least I don't see it as a personal affront to the very idea of James Bond 007. I hope you can someday accept SF and NTTD in a similar fashion.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    echo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.

    I feel like someone (on here?) rearranged all the movies end to end, so you'd start with CR and QoS and then move on to DN, FRWL, etc. Maybe put FYEO after OHMSS. Disgruntled Bond movies like TLD and SF would come later in the run. And end it with NTTD.

    SP is the problem. SP is always the problem.

    SP is the reason why NTTD has been designed as a culmination of Craig Bond's arc. Don't see any problems in that.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    MOONRAKER is the perfect British pantomime. It’s such an enjoyable farcical cartoon in its own right. I can never hate it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,427
    MOONRAKER is the perfect British pantomime. It’s such an enjoyable farcical cartoon in its own right. I can never hate it.

    Yes indeed, it's wonderful fun.

    I can't hate any Bond film: none of them are bad.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Why does Lois gasp that way?!?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    echo wrote: »
    Why does Lois gasp that way?!?

    Because Roger Moore’s “HAH” elicits that.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    chrisisall wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    Reading back on some of these comments regarding Bond not ageing over 40 yrs surprises me.

    I thought people understood that the reason for this is because it takes years to film a movie, produce it, promote it and release it. The missions Bond goes on from Dr No to DAD are only supposed to be within, I'd say, roughly an 8 to 10 year span. Some artistic licence is used as you couldn't put together 20 movies in 8 yrs. As a result, you change actor and ask the audience to ignore some films are set in the 60s and some in the 90s. It's no more unrealistic than people bursting into song in a musical, it's artistic licence.

    NTTD will forever remain missing from my DVD collection, it doesn't deserve a place. Those that liked this soppy, cliched, mess, don't have to be so offended that others don't like it.

    Yes, Craig's era was a different take, originally a fresh take, on Bond. Unfortunately, they took it far too far in an awful direction.

    Here's hoping the next movie is as far removed from NTTD as CR was from DAD.

    If you understand this, then why not the idea that there's no reboot? That cr is his first mission and all stories, also the ones to come, fall in between cr and nttd. Then his death just works in the film.
    Because that's impossible? Bond would have to forget that Blofeld was his adopted brother and about SPECTRE completely? He would also have to forget who Felix is? Also, if you're saying the films come after Spectre, that would mean Bond retires and then returns in Dr. No to investigate Strangways disappearance for no apparent reason? Only for him to be suddenly retired with Madeleine after Die Another Day for him to then have his daughter and then die.

    That's specifically putting all the films in one place. And of course there are a few mismatches. Those are part of the artistic license and there are already plenty of those around. He doesn't need to retire after dad, we can have plenty of films before his retirement. Or in between skyfall and sp. Or between qos and sf. They're all sagas, not exact tellings.


    SP is the problem. SP is always the problem.

    Why SP Should Not Have Been Made. At all.

    (You can now look forward to a minimum of 3 posts per day from BSE on this topic, repeating myself over & over & over again...)

    I'm thinking now that SP really isn't as good as I used to think... I still like it, but it's sinking in my ranking. It was just that I walked into the theatre reluctantly... I was anticipating another time-waster like SF. My expectations were exceedingly low.

    I once had a very, very low opinion of Moonraker. Nowadays I think it's an amusing little piece of fluff. It's nowhere near one of my favorites...but at least I don't see it as a personal affront to the very idea of James Bond 007. I hope you can someday accept SF and NTTD in a similar fashion.

    Two of the crappiest big-budget movies I've ever seen? Not just Bond? Sorry, no. Too many GOOD movies out there to waste time trying to find a quantum of solace in the bottom of a gold-pressed latinum garbage can. ;)
  • Posts: 564
    TripAces wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I disagree with the idea that Craig era was successful. At making money, yes, definitely, and maybe that matters the most in the short term, but the legacy of the Craig era is just death of nearly every major character. Ever since SF these movies have been so obsessed with death that it became stifling, and it made the movies extremely moribund. Death has always been a theme in the books and movies but it was always offset by cleverness, humor, romance, and a sense of adventure, none of which any of Craig's post-CR movies have (QOS had some).

    SF and SP don't really have plots in the traditional sense, there's a sense of randomness in these movies, and Mendes seems like he tries to cover up the lack of narrative with tryhard iconic images and lots of long shots of Bond looking moody and walking through empty locations. IMO these movies are lifeless, joyless slogs and there isn't any real depth to them, either. Madeline babbling about "two Jameses" gives the appearance of depth but has no relevance to the actual story. And making MI6 Bond's adoptive family in SF was just weird. Bond isn't looking for family at MI6, he's looking for adventure. Fleming's character has no interest in staying home. MI6 as his family is the last thing he wants. I'm not against the Bond series doing new things but Skyfall did things that don't belong in Bond movies.

    As for NTTD, well I see it as basically Bond succumbing to modern filmmaking trends, and it's clear that it was constructed to see Craig's death wish through. I'd like to ask him why he wanted to kill his character to begin with, and why BB and MGW went with it. All this strikes me as a series that doesn't have any story left to tell and nothing more for its protagonist to do but be perpetually at war with himself. I expect this trend to continue with the next reboot (ugh).

    Man. Where do I begin?

    First, do some research on Fleming and his connection to Carl Jung. This was an "untapped" resource for the writers and directors, and it plays an important role in the Craig era. Go back and review DC's five films and look at how mirror images play a HUGE role in them, especially the CR PTS. We see...two Jameses. That, my friend, is the cinematic equivalent of Jung's "duality of man."

    No, Bond is NOT looking for adventure. Now, I have not read all of Fleming's work, but from what I have read, THIS IS A JOB. And there is an existential crisis that Fleming's Bond is continually battling. Dalton was the first actor to tap into this anguish.

    And I'm not sure what things SF has that should not be in a Bond film. I know that SF doesn't have a Tarzan yell, Beach Boys music, slide whistles, invisible cars, double-taking pigeons, space lazers, etc.

    But setting all of that aside, yes: the franchise made a lot of money with DC and the films were critical successes. He's beloved as Bond; he will be missed; and this era will be looked back on with fondness by millions of fans for decades to come.

    THANK YOU!

    All the Craig films are a big soup of Jungian ideas and imagery, it's everywhere. It's shocking how much that's everywhere. He literally is the modern man in search of a soul. Of course, "No Time to Die" is full of it too. Sometime I want to chart it or write about it or make a video about it.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    BMB007 wrote: »
    He literally is the modern man in search of a soul.
    "Oh, look at little Goblin Jr. You gonna cry?"
    Making Bond a relatable feel-good idiot in SF & NTTD just doesn't do it for me. Sorry.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited February 2022 Posts: 16,351
    I wouldn't describe Craig's Bond as relatable or feel good. Cold and distant unlikable fellow who makes bad choices? absolutely. Moore and Brosnan were relatable and feel good.
  • Posts: 564
    chrisisall wrote: »
    BMB007 wrote: »
    He literally is the modern man in search of a soul.
    "Oh, look at little Goblin Jr. You gonna cry?"
    Making Bond a relatable feel-good idiot in SF & NTTD just doesn't do it for me. Sorry.

    Quite funny considering it's the same thing Fleming does in the books. "Casino Royale" is full of these allusions to Bond as a divine-figure who sealed his heart away, and is looking for anything to get him out of it.

    That's the basis of the character — what keeps him alive is the same thing that pushes him away from everyone. "Live and Let Die" has this idea too, the dueling Undertaker or Doctor wind (what's Madeleine Swann's profession?).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 2022 Posts: 17,804
    Murdock wrote: »
    I wouldn't describe Craig's Bond as relatable or feel good. Cold and distant unlikable fellow who makes bad choices?
    A third of our world?
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