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That's funny, I thought the topic at hand here was what Barbara Broccoli was willing to offer in terms of the character of James Bond. Sorta by definition we're talking about the movie version of Bond.
You're really going to have to make up your mind here: are we or are we not talking about the movie version of James Bond?
Why do you double/triple post? What’s the point of this ellipsis?
In fact what’s the point of any of this runaround? No one’s opinions will be changed. The dumpster fire that is the “who would/should be a bond actor” has spilled over into this thread; the very title should indicate to all comers that it isn’t worth anyones time.
Yet every once in awhile it’s hard to look away. Like a train wreck.
See my point about the hovercraft gondola. His cultural background had very little impact on his ability to press that little red switch, as it has done on 90% else of what he gets up to.
How do I know what impact his race has on his ability to kiss girls and punch baddies? I'm not sure how that's a serious question. Non-white people being famously unable to punch or kiss 8-|
I hate to break it to you, but Bond ain't exactly complex.
However one of your issues was "that other characters in the movie should continue to treat him in the same way that they would a white upper middle class male, presenting some sort of idealised World which doesn't actually exist?"... doesn't seem to be true of these though, does it. Almost as if that's not a problem at all.
Well obviously the filmmakers will think about it before they do it, just as they do with any decision, it's pretty fatuous to even think that needs pointing out. But people such as yourself don't seem to be able to name any of these consequences that are actually of any import or haven't already been proven to be insignificant by the series itself up to this point (see my last point for example).
Rubbish: I'm talking about the fictional world around Bond, the public don't decide on the fiction, they don't make the films: the filmmakers do. That's why they're called that ;)
[/quote]
Nope, you're the one who tried to contradict me by saying we have different opinions on the matter as if that somehow shut down my argument. If you really felt like that you wouldn't have kept trying to argue.
That's a bit of a strawman argument: you're extrapolating something to try and force it into something to take offence to. The question is one of whether the strict word of Fleming's description is important, and whether race is ever seen as important in the fictional world Bond lives in. The answer is: almost never- even the baddies are never outwardly racist (and that goes right back to the first films). The only actually racist characters I can think of in 60 years are the Sheriff in LALD (and that only really comes down to a couple of mildly racist terms rather than anything outspoken) and Valdo, who is the only case of a real racist in any of the films I can think of. Maybe I've forgotten a few.
Moaners:" Bond cannot be blond!"
Next, EON casts a black Bond.
Moaners:" Bond cannot be black!"
EON: "Well, at least he isnt blond."
How about a black blonde bond next ? :))
I feel like this is a good point. It's true that a person whose skin is black comes with a lot more lived experience than a person whose hair is blonde, so I can see why there's a feeling that this comparison isn't great (disclaimer; I've made this comparison before).
But I think it's fair to say that if they made a modern day Bond film and the actor they chose to portray Bond was black, they wouldn't have to make the plot about him being black, and they wouldn't have to make any reference to him being black at all. On the contrary (and we could go in loops here), it would be unfair I think that any film with a black primary character has to address their blackness.
But as you say, there would be that different context to the character's lived experience, and I imagine the actor would incorporate that in their preparation for the role (what would it have been like to work his way through the naval/intelligence machine as a black man? What might his upbringing have been like? What sort of chip on his shoulder might he have?). You wouldn't necessarily see any of this on the screen (and I tend to think you wouldn't necessarily want to), but a good actor would incorporate it I think.
EDIT: I shouldn't say you wouldn't want to see it on screen, but you'd see it in subtle ways rather than overt ways, like how he might respond to M's authority, etc.
Would a black, indian etc bond harm the BO ?
Superman, spiderman, batman etc, some are british actors, could an american ,australian again etc who can do an english accent be cast as bond by babs and co ?
I'm tempted to say Bond's "British-ness" is more important than Spider-Man's "American-ness", but that is through the bias of being a Bond fan. But yeah we've had two non-Brits so far, so who knows.
I’m black and in the context of an escapist blockbuster like Bond, I think it is superficial (as we can see from the characters they’ve already race swapped). Race is an entirely social construct. Obviously that matters in the real world, but in Bond’s flexible, heightened, fairly bloodless and family
friendly world of a gadget equipped MI6 saving the world from supervillains, it only has to matter if they decide it does. It’d open up some cool storytelling possibilities if they wanted to go there, and I’m sure the actor could use their own experiences to give certain lines a bit more meaning. But I don’t see why they have to. Stories reflecting those experiences are important, but I also think people of colour deserve to see ourselves in fun blockbuster stuff without being reminded of the racism we’ve faced. And it’s not like that’d be unprescedented. There’s even historical dramas ignoring race completely now, and finding great success doing so. Bond could easily do the same.
I don’t think it’s stunt casting. It’s just widening the pool of actors who can do it, and giving people of different backgrounds the opportunity to play a national icon. Imo Bond has transcended the source material at this point, I’d put it in the same bracket as all the old myths and Shakespeare plays. A cultural lignting rod that’s open to reinterpretation. It would be unrealistic, but even CR had over the top stunts, hails of machine gun fire managing to do no damage, a bomb maker who happened to be a parkour expert, and an MI6 issued Aston Martin with a defibrillator in. All the Bond films, even the grittiest ones, are the stuff of pure fantasy really. I guess there is an illusion of reality setting it apart from the more overtly fantastical, superhero stuff. But ignoring race has never broken that illusion before, so I don’t see why Bond’s race changing would be any different.
I didn’t say you were: I said “to take offence to”. There’s lots of strawmen coming out here.
That’s the whole thrust of this conversation: do you genuinely think Bond, in Bond’s world (which isn’t ours) would be so different that he wouldn’t press the button on his hovercraft gondola?
My point, which I’ve already said, is that these aren’t realistic portrayals of social reality, they’re escapist adventure. Bond can be a grimy Scotsman, an Irishman, a Northerner, some kind of vaguely Australian-accented guy in his 20s etc. and remain the same every time, all because the producers will it so and we don’t give it a seconds thought. Honestly to me this sounds like trying to find an excuse for why it shouldn’t happen rather than one which looks at how the Bond films have always treated this.
Thank you, yes, excellent post. I’m not sure why folks are suddenly thinking that the Bond films are some deep dive into Bond’s psyche, his cultural upbringing and the social realities of the world around him. I think he’s been called as privileged exactly once in 60 years: otherwise he lives in a total fantasy land where everyone drives the latest luxury sportscar and lives in expensive flats or lairs. And where even the most evil villains aren’t racist; so of course his race can change with no effects. They can add some if they want, but it doesn’t have to change who Bond is if the makers don’t want it to.
I’m not completely sure about that, especially in the EU that is the backbone of Bond’s success. Some people will definitely boycott such a “twist” but on the other hand new people may come onboard.
Then there’s China where a black Bond won’t ever be well received by the audience.
Regarding the “British-ness” it’s Barbara that recently stated that Bond must be absolutely British and given the fact that Bond is the biggest British icon alongside the Queen I bet she has a point…
I'm afraid you've lost me completely, @Seve. My comment suddenly got mixed in with another battle. I have, for years, been very open about my preferences: I prefer a Caucasian male for Bond. It's an aesthetical preference, not a political or cultural one, so I will not tolerate accusations of racism or ultra-right tendencies. But I'm not interested in going to war over any casting decisions they make. I trust the people behind the screens and I'll see the film first before I jump in the trenches ready to go ape. A black actor may very well impress the hell out of me.
I’m not sure I understand, Bond’s whiteness is the backbone of his success in the EU?
And I think Barbara was referring to the character, and not the actor, needing to be British; wasn’t she involved in the Brosnan era anyways?
From the podcast that fueled the creation of this thread.
British... Columbian, perhaps? ;)
In China, Boyega's picture in all 3 Star Wars sequel s got ridiculously smaller and smaller and fir the Black Panther movie posters, they only used images where the late great Chadwick Boseman's face was completely covered by his mask.
That's crazy, I had no idea it was like that there tbh.
Exactly. Plus Chinese are obsessed with the handsomeness of Hollywood stars as well. If Chris Hemsworth will be cast as Bond then B26 would gross $200M there.