Share your story ideas for BOND 26

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  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    007HallY wrote: »
    It's an interesting little plot from the Fleming novels. In a way it sounds ridiculous on paper - Bond gets amnesia, brainwashed by the Russians, and tries to kill M. Wild. Whenever I tell this to people who haven't read the novels they always look at me a bit strangely.

    Like I said, I think we'll continue to see elements of the Fleming novels adapted, but more loosely than I think any of us realise. This is just me, but the thing I find most interesting about that plot when thinking about a future film isn't necessarily Bond trying to kill M, but the idea of someone brainwashing agents. Again, that's very much The Ipcress File or The Manchurian Candidate territory. I'm sure there's a great plot that could be taken from that.

    I don't think you can do the brain programming and then re-programming plot anymore. That worked back then, because it was based on a way people thought the brain worked. Most people don't think like that anymore and I think it would fall flat.

    Maybe this would be too slapsticky, but the twist for that sequence could be that MI6 has all these electronic/AI ways to test whether someone is who they say they are. These all throw red flags, when Nu-Bond is concerned, while all of the real people are sure it's him, because they know him. Whether that is down to error or outside malice, I don't know.

    After that, I think it should go into a standalone mission.
  • Maybe Bond could follow M and comes to see him (or her) at his/her flat or at The Blades Club, thus escaping MI6 security protocols. M would give him the benefit of the doubt and accepts to meet Bond right away outside.
  • Posts: 1,497
    007HallY wrote: »
    It's an interesting little plot from the Fleming novels. In a way it sounds ridiculous on paper - Bond gets amnesia, brainwashed by the Russians, and tries to kill M. Wild. Whenever I tell this to people who haven't read the novels they always look at me a bit strangely.

    Like I said, I think we'll continue to see elements of the Fleming novels adapted, but more loosely than I think any of us realise. This is just me, but the thing I find most interesting about that plot when thinking about a future film isn't necessarily Bond trying to kill M, but the idea of someone brainwashing agents. Again, that's very much The Ipcress File or The Manchurian Candidate territory. I'm sure there's a great plot that could be taken from that.

    I don't think you can do the brain programming and then re-programming plot anymore. That worked back then, because it was based on a way people thought the brain worked. Most people don't think like that anymore and I think it would fall flat.

    Maybe this would be too slapsticky, but the twist for that sequence could be that MI6 has all these electronic/AI ways to test whether someone is who they say they are. These all throw red flags, when Nu-Bond is concerned, while all of the real people are sure it's him, because they know him. Whether that is down to error or outside malice, I don't know.

    After that, I think it should go into a standalone mission.

    The brain can be rewired, manipulated or planted with false information. I've been researching this in depth for a TV project about false memories of child abuse which happened in the early to mid 2000's and caused some adults and parents to be accused of abusing children, when, in fact, it never happened.

    So I think the basic idea in TMWTGG novel could be effectively and imaginatively updated with what we know now.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It's an interesting little plot from the Fleming novels. In a way it sounds ridiculous on paper - Bond gets amnesia, brainwashed by the Russians, and tries to kill M. Wild. Whenever I tell this to people who haven't read the novels they always look at me a bit strangely.

    Like I said, I think we'll continue to see elements of the Fleming novels adapted, but more loosely than I think any of us realise. This is just me, but the thing I find most interesting about that plot when thinking about a future film isn't necessarily Bond trying to kill M, but the idea of someone brainwashing agents. Again, that's very much The Ipcress File or The Manchurian Candidate territory. I'm sure there's a great plot that could be taken from that.

    I don't think you can do the brain programming and then re-programming plot anymore. That worked back then, because it was based on a way people thought the brain worked. Most people don't think like that anymore and I think it would fall flat.

    Maybe this would be too slapsticky, but the twist for that sequence could be that MI6 has all these electronic/AI ways to test whether someone is who they say they are. These all throw red flags, when Nu-Bond is concerned, while all of the real people are sure it's him, because they know him. Whether that is down to error or outside malice, I don't know.

    After that, I think it should go into a standalone mission.

    The brain can be rewired, manipulated or planted with false information. I've been researching this in depth for a TV project about false memories of child abuse which happened in the early to mid 2000's and caused some adults and parents to be accused of abusing children, when, in fact, it never happened.

    So I think the basic idea in TMWTGG novel could be effectively and imaginatively updated with what we know now.

    It's more the de-programming part I am dubious about. Although, come to think of it, they aren't entirely sure it worked in the novel either, right? Which is why he is sent on the suicide mission.
    And my point is more that audiences would consider this a hokey device in a modern film. He got brainwashed! But we de-brainwashed him! He is now again our hero.
  • Posts: 1,497
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It's an interesting little plot from the Fleming novels. In a way it sounds ridiculous on paper - Bond gets amnesia, brainwashed by the Russians, and tries to kill M. Wild. Whenever I tell this to people who haven't read the novels they always look at me a bit strangely.

    Like I said, I think we'll continue to see elements of the Fleming novels adapted, but more loosely than I think any of us realise. This is just me, but the thing I find most interesting about that plot when thinking about a future film isn't necessarily Bond trying to kill M, but the idea of someone brainwashing agents. Again, that's very much The Ipcress File or The Manchurian Candidate territory. I'm sure there's a great plot that could be taken from that.

    I don't think you can do the brain programming and then re-programming plot anymore. That worked back then, because it was based on a way people thought the brain worked. Most people don't think like that anymore and I think it would fall flat.

    Maybe this would be too slapsticky, but the twist for that sequence could be that MI6 has all these electronic/AI ways to test whether someone is who they say they are. These all throw red flags, when Nu-Bond is concerned, while all of the real people are sure it's him, because they know him. Whether that is down to error or outside malice, I don't know.

    After that, I think it should go into a standalone mission.

    The brain can be rewired, manipulated or planted with false information. I've been researching this in depth for a TV project about false memories of child abuse which happened in the early to mid 2000's and caused some adults and parents to be accused of abusing children, when, in fact, it never happened.

    So I think the basic idea in TMWTGG novel could be effectively and imaginatively updated with what we know now.

    It's more the de-programming part I am dubious about. Although, come to think of it, they aren't entirely sure it worked in the novel either, right? Which is why he is sent on the suicide mission.
    And my point is more that audiences would consider this a hokey device in a modern film. He got brainwashed! But we de-brainwashed him! He is now again our hero.

    As I say, I'm presently researching the subject matter for a TV project, so I am certain that, if treated in an intelligent, informed and realistic way, the premise of re-wiring a person's brain and/or planting triggers to carry out some secret and sinister agenda at a later date, would not be hokey at all. My idea is that Mi6, M, and even Bond himself do not know if the brainwashing - perhaps to kill M as per the novel - is really over. The mission, like in the novel, is to try to determine if Bond is okay now, and, after the mission's success, it seems he might be.. but the end hints that might not be the case.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,359
    LucknFate wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Give me a gritty serious Bond any day ahead of camp humour. Always stay close to Fleming. Apart from the dodgy bits in the LALD novel obviously

    The Fleming novels aren't particularly gritty and certainly aren't always serious though. There's plenty of humour, absurdity and fantasy in those novels. Villains try to blow up Fort Knox, Bond fights a giant squid, buries a villain in bird dung etc. It's that escapism, that ability to make the fantastical feel real that defines Bond.

    They should do the squid fight on screen. It could work as the third act "henchman" fight, I think. I've seen Moby Dick and Jaws. I would have preferred CraigBond died fighting a giant squid on screen for 15 minutes than the actual way he went out.

    Operation Calamari
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    I think the best way to introduce the new Bond actor is to adapt (particularly), the third act of The Spy Who Loved Me novel the Motel scene with Bond's introduction, then you have all the things in it, you have the girl (Vivienne Michel), and you have the action (the shoot out).
    I vote for this!
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 4,273
    007HallY wrote: »
    It's an interesting little plot from the Fleming novels. In a way it sounds ridiculous on paper - Bond gets amnesia, brainwashed by the Russians, and tries to kill M. Wild. Whenever I tell this to people who haven't read the novels they always look at me a bit strangely.

    Like I said, I think we'll continue to see elements of the Fleming novels adapted, but more loosely than I think any of us realise. This is just me, but the thing I find most interesting about that plot when thinking about a future film isn't necessarily Bond trying to kill M, but the idea of someone brainwashing agents. Again, that's very much The Ipcress File or The Manchurian Candidate territory. I'm sure there's a great plot that could be taken from that.

    I don't think you can do the brain programming and then re-programming plot anymore. That worked back then, because it was based on a way people thought the brain worked. Most people don't think like that anymore and I think it would fall flat.

    Maybe this would be too slapsticky, but the twist for that sequence could be that MI6 has all these electronic/AI ways to test whether someone is who they say they are. These all throw red flags, when Nu-Bond is concerned, while all of the real people are sure it's him, because they know him. Whether that is down to error or outside malice, I don't know.

    After that, I think it should go into a standalone mission.

    I'm not sure if general audiences know/care how the brain works to be honest. I'm sure they could come up with a twist on the idea and make it sound plausible in the context of the film, possibly add some sort of technology to the mix (a bit like how NTTD used the nanobots to convey what is essentially a virus/poison).
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited November 2022 Posts: 2,179
    I still think an ambiguous end to NTTD, would have been better....even if Bond dies, make it complex to decipher. I think directors like Campbell, Mendes & Nolan wouldn't have made it that blatant.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    It's an interesting little plot from the Fleming novels. In a way it sounds ridiculous on paper - Bond gets amnesia, brainwashed by the Russians, and tries to kill M. Wild. Whenever I tell this to people who haven't read the novels they always look at me a bit strangely.

    Like I said, I think we'll continue to see elements of the Fleming novels adapted, but more loosely than I think any of us realise. This is just me, but the thing I find most interesting about that plot when thinking about a future film isn't necessarily Bond trying to kill M, but the idea of someone brainwashing agents. Again, that's very much The Ipcress File or The Manchurian Candidate territory. I'm sure there's a great plot that could be taken from that.

    I don't think you can do the brain programming and then re-programming plot anymore. That worked back then, because it was based on a way people thought the brain worked. Most people don't think like that anymore and I think it would fall flat.

    Maybe this would be too slapsticky, but the twist for that sequence could be that MI6 has all these electronic/AI ways to test whether someone is who they say they are. These all throw red flags, when Nu-Bond is concerned, while all of the real people are sure it's him, because they know him. Whether that is down to error or outside malice, I don't know.

    After that, I think it should go into a standalone mission.

    The brain can be rewired, manipulated or planted with false information. I've been researching this in depth for a TV project about false memories of child abuse which happened in the early to mid 2000's and caused some adults and parents to be accused of abusing children, when, in fact, it never happened.

    So I think the basic idea in TMWTGG novel could be effectively and imaginatively updated with what we know now.

    It's more the de-programming part I am dubious about. Although, come to think of it, they aren't entirely sure it worked in the novel either, right? Which is why he is sent on the suicide mission.
    And my point is more that audiences would consider this a hokey device in a modern film. He got brainwashed! But we de-brainwashed him! He is now again our hero.

    As I say, I'm presently researching the subject matter for a TV project, so I am certain that, if treated in an intelligent, informed and realistic way, the premise of re-wiring a person's brain and/or planting triggers to carry out some secret and sinister agenda at a later date, would not be hokey at all. My idea is that Mi6, M, and even Bond himself do not know if the brainwashing - perhaps to kill M as per the novel - is really over. The mission, like in the novel, is to try to determine if Bond is okay now, and, after the mission's success, it seems he might be.. but the end hints that might not be the case.

    Brainwashing is carried out all the time by the mass media. It s a sorry sight to behold for those who have escaped it.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.
  • Posts: 4,273
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    I think, as much as they enjoyed Craig, general audiences and some fans have been waiting a long time for the next guy, so it would be best to hit the ground running with Bond 26.
  • Posts: 1,497
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

  • edited November 2022 Posts: 4,273
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

    Here's my problem with all that - I don't think the power of that subplot fully lies in the audience questioning whether Bond will be ok in the end. I mean, the vast majority of the time (except in NTTD) Bond will be ok anyway. It would be the case with a new actor if he was in any sort of perilous situation in his first film too. We expect Bond to live to fight another day and come out on top. Even in TMWTGG Fleming bypasses the conflict of whether Bond will be 'deprogrammed' or not and just jumps to him in Jamaica looking for Scaramanga. Hell, the potential conflict of him being an effective agent anymore isn't teased much really.

    The powerful thing about reading a brainwashed Bond try to kill M and renouncing the British Government is that it's not only a betrayal of his profession, but his values as a character. It's contrary to what we know this man believes in, and that which we've seen explored throughout the previous Fleming novels. All of this makes the betrayal hit even harder because we know who James Bond is. More importantly we know who Fleming's James Bond is.

    Now, we of course are all familiar with who the cinematic Bond is very broadly, but he's a malleable character in this medium. Each time a new Bond is introduced it's through different and often very distinct ways that give the audience an idea of what kind of incarnation of the character they are - more humorous, gritty, brutal, serious etc. The point is even diehard Bond fans need to get to know the new James Bond. The opening of TMWTGG is about Bond doing something against his beliefs. That's why it's shocking.

    It's a cool subplot, but it's tricky keeping that sense of betrayal, shock and even tension if we don't know that version of James Bond first. It dilutes the impact of the idea even if we slowly get to know him later.
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 839
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

    Very intriguing. I do think the 'angle of introduction' is a critical element to get right for this next Bond era, given that we're coming from such a rich, interesting era of Craig (combining extremes of subversion and nostalgia at once).

    This isn't quite a Brosnan situation. I'm not sure it will suffice to have 007 appear launching himself into a big stunt, or walking into a casino in a tuxedo. Those are the two most direct ways to announce "this is James Bond."

    Even in Craig's case, because the opening sequence was the literal origin story of his 00-status, it accomplishes the same narrative goal. It was just tonally much edgier, and focused in its scope.

    No, I'm all on board for something that's more extreme (narratively) and suggests some core disruption to the mythology in order to engage the audience in new and exciting ways. I loved how effectively Kim Sherwood achieved that in Double or Nothing -- and the way she "resolved" it at the end.

    The producers did something so bold with NTTD in part, I think, because they realized the unique combination of actor/cultural moment/narrative foundation made it the best chance they would ever have to do it. Now, I would imagine, they have a similar appetite -- the slate is truly wiped clean, and they can do anything, and I suspect they'll want to push themselves to try to live up to that opportunity.
  • edited November 2022 Posts: 4,273
    I'm all for them introducing the next Bond with something subversive and perhaps even shocking, but it has to be done right.

    A film like The Batman is a good example of how to introduce a known character in a way that's in-keeping with the mythology, but at the same time does something different with audience expectations. The opening of that film involves a serial killer brutally murdering someone, and we thus expect to see our hero introduced in the next scene in a way that distinguishes them from this villain. Instead we get what sounds to be a slightly unhinged, Travis Bickel-like diary entry/voice over (it's actually a bit ambiguous for the first few moments whether it's meant to be Riddler or Batman). The first time we actually see Batman he doesn't even call himself Batman but 'Vengeance', and even the citizen he saves from a gang is afraid of him.

    All the usual Batman flair and iconography - the signal, Gotham etc. - is there, but these elements subvert what we typically expect from the character. It gives the audience a sense of who this version of the character is - the conflicts they'll face in the film, the thematic idea that he and the villain are simply one step away from being each other. Not saying Bond 26 will copy this opening exactly, but I think it'll be a similar case where a 'traditional' introduction to Bond has some key subversions in there that will define the next Bond for audiences.
  • Posts: 839
    007HallY wrote: »
    I'm all for them introducing the next Bond with something subversive and perhaps even shocking, but it has to be done right.

    A film like The Batman is a good example of how to introduce a known character in a way that's in-keeping with the mythology, but at the same time does something different with audience expectations. The opening of that film involves a serial killer brutally murdering someone, and we thus expect to see our hero introduced in the next scene in a way that distinguishes them from this villain. Instead we get what sounds to be a slightly unhinged, Travis Bickel-like diary entry/voice over (it's actually a bit ambiguous for the first few moments whether it's meant to be Riddler or Batman). The first time we actually see Batman he doesn't even call himself Batman but 'Vengeance', and even the citizen he saves from a gang is afraid of him.

    All the usual Batman flair and iconography - the signal, Gotham etc. - is there, but these elements subvert what we typically expect from the character. It gives the audience a sense of who this version of the character is - the conflicts they'll face in the film, the thematic idea that he and the villain are simply one step away from being each other. Not saying Bond 26 will copy this opening exactly, but I think it'll be a similar case where a 'traditional' introduction to Bond has some key subversions in there that will define the next Bond for audiences.

    Love this comparison (great analysis!) and I think you're right. Bond and Batman have been sort of subtly joined at the inspiration-hip for awhile now (both 'gritty' reboots in mid-2000s, Bond's influence on Nolan's Batman, Nolan's influence in the direction of Skyfall and Spectre, particularly). I don't doubt they're looking at The Batman for some valuable insights about how such reinventions can be done right.

    One of the things about that film that surprised me was just how....not re-invented it seemed, at times. There are certainly some cool innovations (no Wayne manor, the Batcave is a subway station, Bruce is visibly struggling with mental health, Alfred is younger, the Gordon relationship is more publicly accepted), but in terms of style, tone, and aesthetic it wasn't really that drastic of a departure from the films that preceded it.

    Perhaps Bond's next era also will be different, without being that different, and in that balance they'll maintain the core of the formula that's sustained 007 for so long: giving audience something new, but always infusing it with lots of somethings "old" that are presented in new ways.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited November 2022 Posts: 5,970
    It is interesting because The Batman was really able to be extremely modern and fresh but also one of the most comics accurate depictions of the character.
  • Posts: 1,497
    007HallY wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

    Here's my problem with all that - I don't think the power of that subplot fully lies in the audience questioning whether Bond will be ok in the end. I mean, the vast majority of the time (except in NTTD) Bond will be ok anyway. It would be the case with a new actor if he was in any sort of perilous situation in his first film too. We expect Bond to live to fight another day and come out on top. Even in TMWTGG Fleming bypasses the conflict of whether Bond will be 'deprogrammed' or not and just jumps to him in Jamaica looking for Scaramanga. Hell, the potential conflict of him being an effective agent anymore isn't teased much really.

    The powerful thing about reading a brainwashed Bond try to kill M and renouncing the British Government is that it's not only a betrayal of his profession, but his values as a character. It's contrary to what we know this man believes in, and that which we've seen explored throughout the previous Fleming novels. All of this makes the betrayal hit even harder because we know who James Bond is. More importantly we know who Fleming's James Bond is.

    Now, we of course are all familiar with who the cinematic Bond is very broadly, but he's a malleable character in this medium. Each time a new Bond is introduced it's through different and often very distinct ways that give the audience an idea of what kind of incarnation of the character they are - more humorous, gritty, brutal, serious etc. The point is even diehard Bond fans need to get to know the new James Bond. The opening of TMWTGG is about Bond doing something against his beliefs. That's why it's shocking.

    It's a cool subplot, but it's tricky keeping that sense of betrayal, shock and even tension if we don't know that version of James Bond first. It dilutes the impact of the idea even if we slowly get to know him later.

    If a new Bond is presented in this way, and the audience does not know, for sure, who he really is, that raises the stakes and the drama in a way we have not seen before, but, to be fair, everything else u say is valid.

  • Posts: 839
    Denbigh wrote: »
    It is interesting because The Batman was really able to be extremely modern and fresh but also one of the most comics accurate depictions of the character.

    Yes, and I'd say it borrows a bit from the "best of every cinematic Batman" as well as committing to being fiercely modern in its execution. Almost a bit like the Brosnan Bond approach.

    It's interesting, though, that it also goes back to the roots of the character in a similar way that (I would argue) Craig's Bond did.

    Batman as a detective noir film had been so often talked about, but until The Batman, the films never could quite keep themselves close enough to the ground to pull it off. Even Nolan's films -- lauded, rightfully, for their realism -- are undeniably epic superhero movies at heart, in every sense of that phrase. All the Batman films have inevitably been "big Hollywood" pictures, with huge set pieces and high stakes. Even The Batman can't resist heading that direction in its third act -- but for the first two hours, it's firmly in that noir camp and all the better for it.

    It's an interesting question that applies to Bond, too. Can they go back further to Fleming and be even more "literature-accurate" than Craig did? Is that even possible, without it being a period adaptation? Or should the films move the other direction, and try something totally different and consciously more cinematic, like the McQuarrie Mission: Impossible films or Brosnan's era?
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

    Here's my problem with all that - I don't think the power of that subplot fully lies in the audience questioning whether Bond will be ok in the end. I mean, the vast majority of the time (except in NTTD) Bond will be ok anyway. It would be the case with a new actor if he was in any sort of perilous situation in his first film too. We expect Bond to live to fight another day and come out on top. Even in TMWTGG Fleming bypasses the conflict of whether Bond will be 'deprogrammed' or not and just jumps to him in Jamaica looking for Scaramanga. Hell, the potential conflict of him being an effective agent anymore isn't teased much really.

    The powerful thing about reading a brainwashed Bond try to kill M and renouncing the British Government is that it's not only a betrayal of his profession, but his values as a character. It's contrary to what we know this man believes in, and that which we've seen explored throughout the previous Fleming novels. All of this makes the betrayal hit even harder because we know who James Bond is. More importantly we know who Fleming's James Bond is.

    Now, we of course are all familiar with who the cinematic Bond is very broadly, but he's a malleable character in this medium. Each time a new Bond is introduced it's through different and often very distinct ways that give the audience an idea of what kind of incarnation of the character they are - more humorous, gritty, brutal, serious etc. The point is even diehard Bond fans need to get to know the new James Bond. The opening of TMWTGG is about Bond doing something against his beliefs. That's why it's shocking.

    It's a cool subplot, but it's tricky keeping that sense of betrayal, shock and even tension if we don't know that version of James Bond first. It dilutes the impact of the idea even if we slowly get to know him later.
    If a new Bond is presented in this way, and the audience does not know, for sure, who he really is, that raises the stakes and the drama in a way we have not seen before, but, to be fair, everything else u say is valid.
    But do you think that maybe that approach, as good as it could be, might just not be what fans need with Bond 26? Despite the love for Craig, fans and general audiences have been waiting for the next guy and have spent a long time thinking about it, so I personally feel we need a film that's gonna hit the ground running, sure explore new ideas and concepts but do them in a way where people can just jump on board and be in on the ride.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,359
    I still think an ambiguous end to NTTD, would have been better....even if Bond dies, make it complex to decipher. I think directors like Campbell, Mendes & Nolan wouldn't have made it that blatant.

    Fukunaga's ending had more balls than Nolan's in TDKR.
  • Posts: 839
    Denbigh wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

    Here's my problem with all that - I don't think the power of that subplot fully lies in the audience questioning whether Bond will be ok in the end. I mean, the vast majority of the time (except in NTTD) Bond will be ok anyway. It would be the case with a new actor if he was in any sort of perilous situation in his first film too. We expect Bond to live to fight another day and come out on top. Even in TMWTGG Fleming bypasses the conflict of whether Bond will be 'deprogrammed' or not and just jumps to him in Jamaica looking for Scaramanga. Hell, the potential conflict of him being an effective agent anymore isn't teased much really.

    The powerful thing about reading a brainwashed Bond try to kill M and renouncing the British Government is that it's not only a betrayal of his profession, but his values as a character. It's contrary to what we know this man believes in, and that which we've seen explored throughout the previous Fleming novels. All of this makes the betrayal hit even harder because we know who James Bond is. More importantly we know who Fleming's James Bond is.

    Now, we of course are all familiar with who the cinematic Bond is very broadly, but he's a malleable character in this medium. Each time a new Bond is introduced it's through different and often very distinct ways that give the audience an idea of what kind of incarnation of the character they are - more humorous, gritty, brutal, serious etc. The point is even diehard Bond fans need to get to know the new James Bond. The opening of TMWTGG is about Bond doing something against his beliefs. That's why it's shocking.

    It's a cool subplot, but it's tricky keeping that sense of betrayal, shock and even tension if we don't know that version of James Bond first. It dilutes the impact of the idea even if we slowly get to know him later.
    If a new Bond is presented in this way, and the audience does not know, for sure, who he really is, that raises the stakes and the drama in a way we have not seen before, but, to be fair, everything else u say is valid.
    But do you think that maybe that approach, as good as it could be, might just not be what fans need with Bond 26? Despite the love for Craig, fans and general audiences have been waiting for the next guy and have spent a long time thinking about it, so I personally feel we need a film that's gonna hit the ground running, sure explore new ideas and concepts but do them in a way where people can just jump on board and be in on the ride.

    I do wonder, after Craig's era (and particularly his ending), if there's a significant appetite among audiences right now for a more celebratory, enjoyable Bond era that's a bit more of a mainstream crowd-pleaser in its execution.

    I have to admit to feeling a bit that way myself.

    By all means, sign me up for bold narrative reinventions -- but there's definitely also a part of me that could easily digest a few consecutive Brosnan-esque adventures starring Henry Cavill.

    If there's one thing Top Gun 2 got amazingly right, it's that audiences will still turn out in droves for earnest blockbuster cinema that embodies all the big, bold, emotional, uplifting reasons we love blockbuster cinema.

    Dour deconstructionism can be wonderful, and often gives us rich and moving experiences, but it isn't the only way to sell tickets. And with the jeopardy facing the cinema/exhibition industry as a whole, this is a great moment in history to remind audiences of what that medium is, uniquely, capable of doing.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    echo wrote: »
    I still think an ambiguous end to NTTD, would have been better....even if Bond dies, make it complex to decipher. I think directors like Campbell, Mendes & Nolan wouldn't have made it that blatant.

    Fukunaga's ending had more balls than Nolan's in TDKR.

    💯% @echo
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    My hesitation is less with the brainwashing and more with it being our introduction to a new James Bond.

    Yes, I do agree with that. Like I said, to have the best impact I think it requires the audience to know that specific version of Bond from previous films. As an introduction I'm not sure if it would feel right.

    As for brainwashing as a potential plot, again I feel it's a fine line between being a genuinely menacing villain's plan and hokey. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve the brainwashed people in question becoming assassins like in TMWTGG. If you wanted to ground the plot it could be about, I dunno, 00 agents being captured and tortured/brainwashed through whatever technique to reveal confidential information about MI6, after which they are killed. Something like that is relatively grounded and has the potential to be interesting.

    I'd say this, the point is with a new Bond, the audience doesn't know him, and that's the whole point of taking this particular approach, Bond is a mystery figure this time. M, Mi6 and even the audience are not 100% sure about him and that's where the drama lies.

    If the audience are familiar with this Bond already, then they already know that, no matter what has happened to him, he'll be okay in the end - my angle pulls that safety net away.

    Here's my problem with all that - I don't think the power of that subplot fully lies in the audience questioning whether Bond will be ok in the end. I mean, the vast majority of the time (except in NTTD) Bond will be ok anyway. It would be the case with a new actor if he was in any sort of perilous situation in his first film too. We expect Bond to live to fight another day and come out on top. Even in TMWTGG Fleming bypasses the conflict of whether Bond will be 'deprogrammed' or not and just jumps to him in Jamaica looking for Scaramanga. Hell, the potential conflict of him being an effective agent anymore isn't teased much really.

    The powerful thing about reading a brainwashed Bond try to kill M and renouncing the British Government is that it's not only a betrayal of his profession, but his values as a character. It's contrary to what we know this man believes in, and that which we've seen explored throughout the previous Fleming novels. All of this makes the betrayal hit even harder because we know who James Bond is. More importantly we know who Fleming's James Bond is.

    Now, we of course are all familiar with who the cinematic Bond is very broadly, but he's a malleable character in this medium. Each time a new Bond is introduced it's through different and often very distinct ways that give the audience an idea of what kind of incarnation of the character they are - more humorous, gritty, brutal, serious etc. The point is even diehard Bond fans need to get to know the new James Bond. The opening of TMWTGG is about Bond doing something against his beliefs. That's why it's shocking.

    It's a cool subplot, but it's tricky keeping that sense of betrayal, shock and even tension if we don't know that version of James Bond first. It dilutes the impact of the idea even if we slowly get to know him later.

    If a new Bond is presented in this way, and the audience does not know, for sure, who he really is, that raises the stakes and the drama in a way we have not seen before, but, to be fair, everything else u say is valid.

    Love this idea @ColonelSun … It knocks all expectations off kilter. I think having Craig Bond die, the filmmakers are now able to message that they had the balls to kill the character, and, although they won’t be doing that for a good long time (if ever), they’re not afraid to subvert and stretch the character in unexpected ways.

    In fact I think they need a good dose of something this imaginative and groundbreaking (in this series), to forget about the mark Craig made on the franchise (whether one loves his interpretation or not).
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited November 2022 Posts: 2,179
    echo wrote: »
    I still think an ambiguous end to NTTD, would have been better....even if Bond dies, make it complex to decipher. I think directors like Campbell, Mendes & Nolan wouldn't have made it that blatant.

    Fukunaga's ending had more balls than Nolan's in TDKR.

    Right? But do we really think EON aren't thinking of better and very clever ways of introducing Bond 7, because of NTTD's blatant ending? Even if it's a different continuity, this is the first time Bond dies. Another thing EON would be thinking is, if they should bring back the previous MI6 cast or not...as bringing them back wouldn't help Bond 7's original status.
    EON do know how to launch a new Bond, but the ending of NTTD gives them extra reason to launch Bond 7 cleverly, even if Bond 26 isn't linked with NTTD. So I think the scripting process of Bond 26 needs to be ultra-good this time, even if we know EON always launch a new Bond in stellar fashion.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    This is barely an idea, but I’m currently listening to the JB&F episode about the different versions of the SP script and apparently one of them was that Oberhausers whole plot was that he wanted to get his hands on his birth certificate or a passport copy, because in a digitised world, that was the only tangible proof of a murder he committed or something. Now, what the piece of paper is used for was stupid, but given that P&W very much like to re-use an idea they didn’t end up putting in previous films and as I am under the influence of reading the Slow Horses books - one of which has a similar plot, I think the basic outline could be a fun MacGuffin.
    Everything is digital, but either some old MI6 records or something pertaining to the British state in general still exists in written form. There’s only one of it and it either needs to be protected, destroyed or the holder had some kind of power. Action ensues.
    This could also be a great springboard for my recurring idea of having a Bond film investigate Britain‘s role in the world, MI6‘s position in Britain and Bond’s attitude towards all of that.
  • Posts: 4,273
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I'm all for them introducing the next Bond with something subversive and perhaps even shocking, but it has to be done right.

    A film like The Batman is a good example of how to introduce a known character in a way that's in-keeping with the mythology, but at the same time does something different with audience expectations. The opening of that film involves a serial killer brutally murdering someone, and we thus expect to see our hero introduced in the next scene in a way that distinguishes them from this villain. Instead we get what sounds to be a slightly unhinged, Travis Bickel-like diary entry/voice over (it's actually a bit ambiguous for the first few moments whether it's meant to be Riddler or Batman). The first time we actually see Batman he doesn't even call himself Batman but 'Vengeance', and even the citizen he saves from a gang is afraid of him.

    All the usual Batman flair and iconography - the signal, Gotham etc. - is there, but these elements subvert what we typically expect from the character. It gives the audience a sense of who this version of the character is - the conflicts they'll face in the film, the thematic idea that he and the villain are simply one step away from being each other. Not saying Bond 26 will copy this opening exactly, but I think it'll be a similar case where a 'traditional' introduction to Bond has some key subversions in there that will define the next Bond for audiences.

    Love this comparison (great analysis!) and I think you're right. Bond and Batman have been sort of subtly joined at the inspiration-hip for awhile now (both 'gritty' reboots in mid-2000s, Bond's influence on Nolan's Batman, Nolan's influence in the direction of Skyfall and Spectre, particularly). I don't doubt they're looking at The Batman for some valuable insights about how such reinventions can be done right.

    One of the things about that film that surprised me was just how....not re-invented it seemed, at times. There are certainly some cool innovations (no Wayne manor, the Batcave is a subway station, Bruce is visibly struggling with mental health, Alfred is younger, the Gordon relationship is more publicly accepted), but in terms of style, tone, and aesthetic it wasn't really that drastic of a departure from the films that preceded it.

    Perhaps Bond's next era also will be different, without being that different, and in that balance they'll maintain the core of the formula that's sustained 007 for so long: giving audience something new, but always infusing it with lots of somethings "old" that are presented in new ways.

    Cheers, and I agree, Batman and Bond have definitely had trend-related similarities. The Batman is stylistically a very impressionistic film (I mean, it's always raining, dark, the focus is often shallow, and the sound design is actually rather heightened when you re-watch it) which contrasts with Nolan's aesthetic choices, but I definitely get what you mean. It feels like a Batman movie in the same vein (or at least one that could logically follow on from) the previous films, even with those subversions we noted.

    As for what you said about a more celebratory, escapist Bond film in your later post, I do think the great thing about Bond is that it can be many things even in a single film. It can have moments of darkness, absurdity, action, pathos, humour etc. Even NTTD, fatalistic as it was, actually had a broad range of tones within it (I mean, people cite the Cuba sequence as an example of something more 'lighthearted' but even those moments followed on from what is essentially a Horror-esque moment where all the SPECTRE members are brutally killed by the nanobots). It's very much the case in Fleming's novels too, that balance between escapism and reality. James Bond stories are also very different to the stories of the Top Gun movies too. So while we might have something for Bond 26 which is a bit lighter, I don't think the producers are going to abandon that attempt to create something broadly appealing but creatively interesting anytime soon.

    Oh, and @ImpertinentGoon I really like that idea for a future McGuffin. You're right, P&W do reuse scrapped ideas so it's possible.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,123
    007HallY wrote: »
    AgentM72 wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I'm all for them introducing the next Bond with something subversive and perhaps even shocking, but it has to be done right.

    A film like The Batman is a good example of how to introduce a known character in a way that's in-keeping with the mythology, but at the same time does something different with audience expectations. The opening of that film involves a serial killer brutally murdering someone, and we thus expect to see our hero introduced in the next scene in a way that distinguishes them from this villain. Instead we get what sounds to be a slightly unhinged, Travis Bickel-like diary entry/voice over (it's actually a bit ambiguous for the first few moments whether it's meant to be Riddler or Batman). The first time we actually see Batman he doesn't even call himself Batman but 'Vengeance', and even the citizen he saves from a gang is afraid of him.

    All the usual Batman flair and iconography - the signal, Gotham etc. - is there, but these elements subvert what we typically expect from the character. It gives the audience a sense of who this version of the character is - the conflicts they'll face in the film, the thematic idea that he and the villain are simply one step away from being each other. Not saying Bond 26 will copy this opening exactly, but I think it'll be a similar case where a 'traditional' introduction to Bond has some key subversions in there that will define the next Bond for audiences.

    Love this comparison (great analysis!) and I think you're right. Bond and Batman have been sort of subtly joined at the inspiration-hip for awhile now (both 'gritty' reboots in mid-2000s, Bond's influence on Nolan's Batman, Nolan's influence in the direction of Skyfall and Spectre, particularly). I don't doubt they're looking at The Batman for some valuable insights about how such reinventions can be done right.

    One of the things about that film that surprised me was just how....not re-invented it seemed, at times. There are certainly some cool innovations (no Wayne manor, the Batcave is a subway station, Bruce is visibly struggling with mental health, Alfred is younger, the Gordon relationship is more publicly accepted), but in terms of style, tone, and aesthetic it wasn't really that drastic of a departure from the films that preceded it.

    Perhaps Bond's next era also will be different, without being that different, and in that balance they'll maintain the core of the formula that's sustained 007 for so long: giving audience something new, but always infusing it with lots of somethings "old" that are presented in new ways.

    Cheers, and I agree, Batman and Bond have definitely had trend-related similarities. The Batman is stylistically a very impressionistic film (I mean, it's always raining, dark, the focus is often shallow, and the sound design is actually rather heightened when you re-watch it) which contrasts with Nolan's aesthetic choices, but I definitely get what you mean. It feels like a Batman movie in the same vein (or at least one that could logically follow on from) the previous films, even with those subversions we noted.

    As for what you said about a more celebratory, escapist Bond film in your later post, I do think the great thing about Bond is that it can be many things even in a single film. It can have moments of darkness, absurdity, action, pathos, humour etc. Even NTTD, fatalistic as it was, actually had a broad range of tones within it (I mean, people cite the Cuba sequence as an example of something more 'lighthearted' but even those moments followed on from what is essentially a Horror-esque moment where all the SPECTRE members are brutally killed by the nanobots). It's very much the case in Fleming's novels too, that balance between escapism and reality. James Bond stories are also very different to the stories of the Top Gun movies too. So while we might have something for Bond 26 which is a bit lighter, I don't think the producers are going to abandon that attempt to create something broadly appealing but creatively interesting anytime soon.

    Oh, and @ImpertinentGoon I really like that idea for a future McGuffin. You're right, P&W do reuse scrapped ideas so it's possible.

    Agreed, both GoldenEye and The Living Daylights managed to be serious and fun at the same time, that's why they stand out for me.
    There needs to be more Bond flicks like GE and TLD.
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