How much Fleming did each actor actual get to work with?

2

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  • Posts: 9,846
    for me I noticed the brosnan films don't get enough credit when they took from fleming

    in fact I wanted to at one point do a novel to film comparrison similar to what someone did with the post fleming books but roughly

    Goldeneye is a loose adaption of Moonraker
    Tomorrow never dies I always saw as an adaption of the spy who loved me without getting sued by IFP

    and before people yell

    Paris is essentially Vivianne in everything but name even the drawing of her in one of the reprints look like her

    She makes mention of bond having the gun under the pillow she marries a newspaper man (Kurt in the novel Elliot in the film) the reason being he told me he loved me

    she is almost killed in a hotel in the book she is killed in a hotel in the film

    there is a case that can be made here I am not crazy

    The World is not enough is elements of For Your Eyes Only

    Die another day is to moonraker as Casino Royale is to well Casino Royale earlier drafts even had it closer to the book with the NSA agent being the mole (hence the name Jinx) and Gala Brand not Miranda Frost being the final bond girl but casting/ script rewrites/director choices well we got a watered down of moonraker however Graves's speech is word for word Drax's speech from the book
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2022 Posts: 16,367
    Yes I'm sure I mentioned that in the last version of this thread but I think it wasn't what the OP was looking for. Likewise LTK being an adaptation of the TMWTGG plot.
    Also Brosnan is the only Bond we hear of (and see) do the thing Fleming mentions of sleeping with his gun under his pillow.
  • edited April 2022 Posts: 2,161
    I've often heard the argument for the Brosnan Era being more in live with Fleming than it is given credit for, and this may possibly be true, but nothing tangible and specific and identifiable enough to fit the intent of this thread. I'm looking for actual scenes or conversations. The stuff I want to make note of on here doesn't require any assumption, inference or detective work, isn't vague, and I'm involves Bond firsthand. So even if Drax's speech was lifted, it didn't give Brosnan any Fleming to work from.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,367
    It's just dialogue spoken by Bond alone you're after?
  • Posts: 9,846
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I've often heard the argument for the Brosnan Era being more in live with Fleming than it is given credit for, and this may possibly be true, but nothing tangible and specific and identifiable enough to fit the intent of this thread. I'm looking for actual scenes or conversations. The stuff I want to make note of on here doesn't require any assumption, inference or detective work, isn't vague, and I'm involves Bond firsthand. So even if Drax's speech was lifted, it didn't give Brosnan any Fleming to work from.


    sure it did Bond's reaction in the novel was one of suspicion and confusion...Brosnan's bond was uhm bored
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    In today's society, I don't think rape, attempting or even speaking or seeing such a scene would make its way into a Bond film.

    I agree but it could always be suggested so that the audience gets the gist of what is happening or about to happen without being graphic about it. That's how the rape of Della Leiter was suggested in LTK: "We gave her a nice honeymoooonnnn."

    That seemed to be more taunting Leiter. When Bond finds her it looks like all they did was snap her neck and leave her.
  • edited April 2022 Posts: 12,837
    In today's society, I don't think rape, attempting or even speaking or seeing such a scene would make its way into a Bond film.

    Yeah I said the same when the idea was floated before. Using the threat of rape as a source of tension/danger before James Bond (the most masculine top shagger hero ever) swoops in and saves the day? Absolutely no chance they’re going there post Me-Too, and to be honest I don’t think they should. Death in cinema is a morally flexible concept because it’s easy to distinguish from reality (Bond or John Wick gunning down goons isn’t going to trigger anyone’s PTSD) and because we know in the real world, violence is sometimes justified. Good people do have to kill bad people on occasion, so it’s easy to accept a heightened version of that as popcorn entertainment. Sexual violence isn’t the same thing, there’s no justification for it, there’s way to sugar coat it, and even coming from the baddies, I don’t think it’s something that the writers of these sorts of films should use.
  • Posts: 2,161
    mtm wrote: »
    It's just dialogue spoken by Bond alone you're after?

    A key conversation which is reasonably well represented and/or an actual scenario fits my requirements.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,367
    So it can't be a situation or story that Fleming came up with but must be an exact scene? It's a bit tricky to work out the rules. Maybe it just comes down to everyone's definition of what is a 'Fleming' scene in the movies being different? After all I don't think there's a single one in the films which is precisely as Fleming wrote it.
    In today's society, I don't think rape, attempting or even speaking or seeing such a scene would make its way into a Bond film.

    Yeah I said the same when the idea was floated before. Using the threat of rape as a source of tension/danger before James Bond (the most masculine top shagger hero ever) swoops in and saves the day? Absolutely no chance they’re going there post Me-Too, and to be honest I don’t think they should. Death in cinema is a morally flexible concept because it’s easy to distinguish from reality (Bond or John Wick gunning down goons isn’t going to trigger anyone’s PTSD) and because we know in the real world, violence is sometimes justified. Good people do have to kill bad people on occasion, so it’s easy to accept a heightened version of that as popcorn entertainment. Sexual violence isn’t the same thing, there’s no justification for it, there’s way to sugar coat it, and even coming from the baddies, I don’t think it’s something that the writers of these sorts of films should use.

    Yes, excellent post, totally agree.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Sexual violence should really only be used in films where it's the crux of the story. If it's window dressing or an afterthought, it comes across as cheap and tacky at best or mean-spirited at worst.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2022 Posts: 6,288
    GE ("The target is London," 006's face and backstory as the traitor within, the climbing accident) and DAD (similar things) are both variations on MR the novel.

    There are echoes of OHMSS in TWINE--the haughty daughter, the skiing and ski outfit, not to mention "Have you ever lost a loved one, Mr. Bond?"

    TND is the least Fleming of Brosnan's movies, in my view. You could make an argument that it's Flemingesque for Bond to sleep with a married woman and of course there's the gun under the pillow, but basically it's a tired remake of YOLT/TSWLM/MR.
  • edited April 2022 Posts: 2,161
    But I’m not looking for echoes of the novels or even Fleminesque touches. That’s been done to death on here. Looking for specific scenes and exchanges of dialogue that involve Bond.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,367
    I think you probably got all the ones you were looking for in the first post?
  • Posts: 2,161
    Yes, I believe I did.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    In case I missed it in this thread, the scene in QOS about line between heroes and villains being blurred. Of course, big difference is that they switched it between Bond and Mathis where it’s the latter that expresses it rather than Bond.

    I remember waiting in the theater for Mathis to bring up the “law of the quantum of solace” when consoling Bond because if there was a point to reference the title and contextualize the meaning for the film, there it was. But it never goes there. Instead they decided to just call the unnamed organization “Quantum” which only confuses meaning of the title.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,367
    Yeah it was odd not to feature that exchange at all, although I guess it requires quite a long bit of storytelling. Or maybe Mathis could have pointed a couple out at the party or something.
    I still say it would have made more sense of the title to call the organisation 'Solace'; plus I think it's a bit creepier too.
  • Posts: 2,161
    In case I missed it in this thread, the scene in QOS about line between heroes and villains being blurred. Of course, big difference is that they switched it between Bond and Mathis where it’s the latter that expresses it rather than Bond.

    I was debating including that one, but decided to reread the passage in tandem with watching the scene to be sure.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2022 Posts: 6,288
    I think trying to describe "quantum of solace" in dialogue would have been almost impossible. It's such a literary title.

    Bond: "I feel nothing for her."
    Mathis: "Not even a quantum of solace?"
    Bond: "No."

    OR:

    Moneypenny (over DB5 phone): "It is a fish."
    Bond: "Of course! The Hildebrand Rarity!"
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    There was a plan for Mathis to tell Bond the story of Rhoda and the Governor (or a version thereof) while they were on the plane in QOS, but Forster obviously dropped it. Shame - Giancarlo Giannini had the perfect voice for it.
  • Posts: 2,161
    Venutius wrote: »
    There was a plan for Mathis to tell Bond the story of Rhoda and the Governor (or a version thereof) while they were on the plane in QOS, but Forster obviously dropped it. Shame - Giancarlo Giannini had the perfect voice for it.

    I have heard this as well. I wonder if it was actually filmed.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited April 2022 Posts: 6,288
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    There was a plan for Mathis to tell Bond the story of Rhoda and the Governor (or a version thereof) while they were on the plane in QOS, but Forster obviously dropped it. Shame - Giancarlo Giannini had the perfect voice for it.

    I have heard this as well. I wonder if it was actually filmed.

    Considering that the writer's strike stalled the script, and considering Giannini's strengths as an actor, a long monologue from him might just have worked here, and played off Craig's Bond's reticence.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited April 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Agreed. The plane scene is so good, I always wish it was longer. A Giannini monologue at that point would've given QOS a bit of space to breathe, while injecting some Fleming and underlining Mathis and Bond's relationship - and explained the title to the casuals! ;) Definitely a missed opportunity.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    Agreed. That is the one scene that feels way too short.

    It could have been like TLD, which doesn't have a ton of Fleming, but has just enough to propel the rest of the movie. MGW should have realized this!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2022 Posts: 16,367
    I wonder how they'd have made the slightly odd reappearance of the word 'quantum' work. Mathis can't be telling the story because of that because it's a rubbish reason to tell that story, he needs to be trying to tell Bond something, although I struggle slightly to see how it would make a guy grieving for his lover feel better. Maybe he says 'the smallest amount of solace' and then thinks of changing that to 'quantum of solace' because of the people they're up against.
    echo wrote: »
    Agreed. That is the one scene that feels way too short.

    It could have been like TLD, which doesn't have a ton of Fleming, but has just enough to propel the rest of the movie. MGW should have realized this!

    It does, although it is really starting to stick out to me how silly all that sniper stuff is- just park your car over the road and pick him up! :)
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I'd be interested to know how much of Fleming the actors actually read.
    We know Dalton read all the novels. I have a feeling Craig read most, if not all the books. What about the others, didn't Connery said he read one and half books?
  • Posts: 2,161
    Lazenby absolutely loved the novel OHMSS.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Lazenby absolutely loved the novel OHMSS.

    Yeah I forgot about that, you're right. He used the book to prompt the emotion filming the ending didn't he?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited April 2022 Posts: 18,269
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know how much of Fleming the actors actually read.
    We know Dalton read all the novels. I have a feeling Craig read most, if not all the books. What about the others, didn't Connery said he read one and half books?

    I think Daniel Craig read all of the Fleming novels in preparation for the role in Casino Royale. Sean Connery said in an interview with the BBC during the filming of DAF in 1971 that he had only read three of the Bond novels, namely Thunderball (as it was originally going to be the first film), Live and Let Die and From Russia, with Love. When asked by the interviewer why he hadn't read the rest, Connery replied, "I don't really know."

  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know how much of Fleming the actors actually read.
    We know Dalton read all the novels. I have a feeling Craig read most, if not all the books. What about the others, didn't Connery said he read one and half books?

    I think Daniel Craig read all of the Fleming novels in preparation for the role in Casino Royale. Sean Connery said in an interview with the BBC during the filming of DAF in 1971 that he had only read three of the Bond novels, namely Thunderball (as it was originally going to be the first film), Live and Let Die and From Russia, with Love. When asked by the interviewer why he hadn't read the rest, Connery replied, "I don't really know."


    Thanks for sharing that mate, I'd never seen that before.
    It amazes me how a lot of us hold the novels up as the gospel, but the actors themselves all have their own take on it
  • Posts: 3,327
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know how much of Fleming the actors actually read.
    We know Dalton read all the novels. I have a feeling Craig read most, if not all the books. What about the others, didn't Connery said he read one and half books?

    I think Daniel Craig read all of the Fleming novels in preparation for the role in Casino Royale. Sean Connery said in an interview with the BBC during the filming of DAF in 1971 that he had only read three of the Bond novels, namely Thunderball (as it was originally going to be the first film), Live and Let Die and From Russia, with Love. When asked by the interviewer why he hadn't read the rest, Connery replied, "I don't really know."


    The fact that Connery spent time with Fleming in person and got to know him, he gets a free pass from me on not reading all the books.
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