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What to keep and what to get rid of from the Craig era.

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  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Agreed with all of those you've listed @jetsetwilly

    I would also add there:

    1. Just don't make the next Bond so brooding, I'd liked to see Bond have his own personality or maybe adhere to the Connery Bond for balancing the personality of his Bond.
    I felt like Craig became too much brooding with no style or class or whatsoever, he's too much brute, I think Connery's Bond perfected it by being professional to his job and convincing as a killer, but at some point still have sophistication and class.
    There's a coolness in Connery's Bond, that Craig's Bond lacked, he almost felt like John Wick.
    Maybe that's what the modern trends clinging into nowadays, but I would be happy if they did.
    I don't liked any Dalton/Craig copy of Bond again, I'd liked the next Bond to have his own personality and balancing it.

    2. And If there's one thing I'd like to keep from the Craig Era, it's the Bond Girls like Camille or Paloma, who doesn't need to have an intimate interaction with Bond or yes, sex, that's one of the things I find better in Quantum of Solace is that Bond and Camille never got to have sex, the same for Paloma in No Time To Die, it's just a mutual relationship, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, there's no need for them to have sex, they could just work together.
    Bond could still be a womanizer but there's no need for him to have sex or bed any woman that he's with, I'm fine with mutual interactions, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, so it's probably the only thing from the Craig Era I would liked to keep.

    Yes I agree with all this too. It would be nice to see Bond smile a bit more and start enjoying life again, rather than being broody and moody all the time.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,413
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    There's a coolness in Connery's Bond, that Craig's Bond lacked, he almost felt like John Wick.

    In your opinion: I find Craig to be one of the coolest Bonds alongside Connery. In fact I think they're probably the only two to be effectively cool.

    I agree that the nostalgia stuff can go now: we can lose M's office, the car etc. We've done the stuff where they've come back, it was great, but time to move forward.

    I certainly wouldn't bring Arnold back: I enjoyed him but that is done now too and there are better and fresher composers out there.
    I'd keep the films interlinked as I really liked seeing Bond moving through his life: if you've read the Fleming novels you can see that's part of the appeal as the series moves along. I think it would almost be quite odd to have sequels which don't mention what's happened in the previous film in fact.
    I agree that tonally CR/SF/SP feels like the sweet spot- it's actually quite hard to imagine another way of doing it at the moment, which shows what a good job they've done. I guess it's the details which need a shakeup to differentiate the next guy from Craig, but it could stay in the same tonal world.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Agreed with all of those you've listed @jetsetwilly

    I would also add there:

    1. Just don't make the next Bond so brooding, I'd liked to see Bond have his own personality or maybe adhere to the Connery Bond for balancing the personality of his Bond.
    I felt like Craig became too much brooding with no style or class or whatsoever, he's too much brute, I think Connery's Bond perfected it by being professional to his job and convincing as a killer, but at some point still have sophistication and class.
    There's a coolness in Connery's Bond, that Craig's Bond lacked, he almost felt like John Wick.
    Maybe that's what the modern trends clinging into nowadays, but I would be happy if they did.
    I don't liked any Dalton/Craig copy of Bond again, I'd liked the next Bond to have his own personality and balancing it.

    2. And If there's one thing I'd like to keep from the Craig Era, it's the Bond Girls like Camille or Paloma, who doesn't need to have an intimate interaction with Bond or yes, sex, that's one of the things I find better in Quantum of Solace is that Bond and Camille never got to have sex, the same for Paloma in No Time To Die, it's just a mutual relationship, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, there's no need for them to have sex, they could just work together.
    Bond could still be a womanizer but there's no need for him to have sex or bed any woman that he's with, I'm fine with mutual interactions, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, so it's probably the only thing from the Craig Era I would liked to keep.

    Yes I agree with all this too. It would be nice to see Bond smile a bit more and start enjoying life again, rather than being broody and moody all the time.

    I don’t understand the criticism of Craig’s Bond being too moody and broody. He was one of the more serious takes on it, and I know the personal drama was divisive, but I don’t see anything about his performance or characterisation that makes him broodier than Dalton or the original Fleming Bond. I reckon he actually had more Connery/Moore style humour than them. He just had a detached Mcqueen type coolness layered over the usual hedonism.

    I do think the films have gotten quite heavy and I’d like one that feels a bit lighter again, for the sake of keeping it fresh, but I don’t think the tone is necessarily the issue with that. I’d be up for more Connery style irony, but at the same time, my favourite is LTK, and that one has Bond at his moodiest. I still have a great time watching it because it’s a gripping, badass action film that doesn’t give you time to dwell on the nastiness. It’s the introspection, psychoanalysis and long runtimes they could do with ditching imo. Characterisation wise, I’m easy. I think they can make a fun film with any sort of Bond, it’s just all about how they execute it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,413
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Agreed with all of those you've listed @jetsetwilly

    I would also add there:

    1. Just don't make the next Bond so brooding, I'd liked to see Bond have his own personality or maybe adhere to the Connery Bond for balancing the personality of his Bond.
    I felt like Craig became too much brooding with no style or class or whatsoever, he's too much brute, I think Connery's Bond perfected it by being professional to his job and convincing as a killer, but at some point still have sophistication and class.
    There's a coolness in Connery's Bond, that Craig's Bond lacked, he almost felt like John Wick.
    Maybe that's what the modern trends clinging into nowadays, but I would be happy if they did.
    I don't liked any Dalton/Craig copy of Bond again, I'd liked the next Bond to have his own personality and balancing it.

    2. And If there's one thing I'd like to keep from the Craig Era, it's the Bond Girls like Camille or Paloma, who doesn't need to have an intimate interaction with Bond or yes, sex, that's one of the things I find better in Quantum of Solace is that Bond and Camille never got to have sex, the same for Paloma in No Time To Die, it's just a mutual relationship, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, there's no need for them to have sex, they could just work together.
    Bond could still be a womanizer but there's no need for him to have sex or bed any woman that he's with, I'm fine with mutual interactions, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, so it's probably the only thing from the Craig Era I would liked to keep.

    Yes I agree with all this too. It would be nice to see Bond smile a bit more and start enjoying life again, rather than being broody and moody all the time.

    I don’t understand the criticism of Craig’s Bond being too moody and broody. He was one of the more serious takes on it, and I know the personal drama was divisive, but I don’t see anything about his performance or characterisation that makes him broodier than Dalton or the original Fleming Bond. I reckon he actually had more Connery/Moore style humour than them. He just had a detached Mcqueen type coolness layered over the usual hedonism.

    Yes I think he does the moments of humour better than Dalton (I think he basically was what Dalton was trying to do but he actually did it successfully); and I get puzzled at fans saying they don't want moody and broody when the next moment we get a picture of Brosnan or Dalton sat in their hotel rooms drinking booze alone and everyone gets excited about how Bondy they look.
    I like the balance of both, and Craig did it pretty well. I still think one of the best jokes in the whole series is Craig landing on that little sofa at the beginning of Spectre. Maybe they'll dial up the lighter side slightly more next time to differentiate, maybe they'll use a totally new style of humour for Bond (I guess Craig was mercifully lacking in the bad puns..?); all is good.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 4,162
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Agreed with all of those you've listed @jetsetwilly

    I would also add there:

    1. Just don't make the next Bond so brooding, I'd liked to see Bond have his own personality or maybe adhere to the Connery Bond for balancing the personality of his Bond.
    I felt like Craig became too much brooding with no style or class or whatsoever, he's too much brute, I think Connery's Bond perfected it by being professional to his job and convincing as a killer, but at some point still have sophistication and class.
    There's a coolness in Connery's Bond, that Craig's Bond lacked, he almost felt like John Wick.
    Maybe that's what the modern trends clinging into nowadays, but I would be happy if they did.
    I don't liked any Dalton/Craig copy of Bond again, I'd liked the next Bond to have his own personality and balancing it.

    2. And If there's one thing I'd like to keep from the Craig Era, it's the Bond Girls like Camille or Paloma, who doesn't need to have an intimate interaction with Bond or yes, sex, that's one of the things I find better in Quantum of Solace is that Bond and Camille never got to have sex, the same for Paloma in No Time To Die, it's just a mutual relationship, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, there's no need for them to have sex, they could just work together.
    Bond could still be a womanizer but there's no need for him to have sex or bed any woman that he's with, I'm fine with mutual interactions, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, so it's probably the only thing from the Craig Era I would liked to keep.

    Yes I agree with all this too. It would be nice to see Bond smile a bit more and start enjoying life again, rather than being broody and moody all the time.

    I don’t understand the criticism of Craig’s Bond being too moody and broody. He was one of the more serious takes on it, and I know the personal drama was divisive, but I don’t see anything about his performance or characterisation that makes him broodier than Dalton or the original Fleming Bond. I reckon he actually had more Connery/Moore style humour than them. He just had a detached Mcqueen type coolness layered over the usual hedonism.

    Agreed. I actually find it a really bizarre criticism rewatching the Craig films. In SF his Bond is a bit more jaded, but he's not exactly miserable or brooding all the time. He smiles whenever he teases or flirts with Moneypenny throughout the film, and there's even that traditional Bondian humour whenever he's in a bad situation (ie. "Oh good, here comes the train", "Don't forget my pathetic love of country" etc.) In SP his Bond is even more at ease. He even seems to be relishing the danger of the Italian car chase sequence. Hell, one of the criticisms of NTTD is that his Bond becomes a lot more 'talkative' after the PTS.

    I do think some of the dramatic decisions of the later Craig films have left a few fans with a bit of fatigue, and possibly a 'bad taste in the mouth' as it were. I really can't see where this idea that Craig's Bond is miserable and brooding all the time comes from otherwise.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    There's one poster that says franchises like John Wick have a classic James Bond feel that the Craig Era lacked; another poster says Craig lacked coolness and was more like John Wick...

    So confusing, lol...

    I saw Craig as being effortlessly cool, as much as Connery was effortlessly cool in his way.

    Brosnan and Lazenby had to "act" cool and I could see and feel it (not good), and Moore and Dalton weren't going for that kind of tone at all (one was finding his light touch in his run, the other focussed on the grittiness of the man and his world)...

    The drinking will be staying.

    The smoking is long gone.

    As for the next one? He will be in a tux at some point, order a martini, and because of sponsorship deals, drive an Aston. I hope that the DB5 doesn't make an appearance, and I assume there will be a whole new MI6 team that will have a different relationship with their James Bond.

    But other than the above guesses? Who knows. That's what's great about the role: it'll be about the new actor and what he brings as an actor. Just by the nature of a recast, things will look and feel different, but still be grounded in the EoN creation...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,413
    One thing I really liked about SP and I thought it got right was its take on Bond: he'd become a little more playful and relaxed. Stuff like his little wave to the goons at the funeral, 'Mickey Mouse', telling the security guard at the clinic to "No: stay"... Dalton's Bond was never as funny because he was never confident or self-assured enough to actually be comfortable in his own skin like that - and to me that's a huge part of what Bond is.
    He doesn't care what you think because he knows he's cool and you can't touch him, and when he starts enjoying himself- then you're in trouble. Dalton's Bond never quite believed in himself, and that's not Bond. All of the others, including Lazenby, got that bit right.

    And the moment where he drunkenly threatens a mouse and kind of takes the mick out of himself and his own role in these movies was a really lovely and surprising gag we've never quite seen Bond do before.
    I really wish Spectre's plot hadn't fallen apart, because it contains so many lovely moments that I think it'd be really highly regarded if it actually cohered into a whole.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Count me in as someone who enjoyed the humour in the Craig films as well.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Certainly in the UK, Craig made Bond legitimately cool again for the first time in a long time. No nudge-nudge, no irony, no guilty pleasure, just genuinely cool AF. That was partly Craig himself and partly the nature of the films they made. I don't think EON will risk losing that by veering too far from where Dan left off.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I’ve always said this since 2006: What makes Craig work is that he combined the cynicism of Fleming Bond with Connery’s machismo.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I’ve always said this since 2006: What makes Craig work is that he combined the cynicism of Fleming Bond with Connery’s machismo.

    I have very similar feelings @MakeshiftPython … one of the reasons I was so sad my dad passed before seeing CR. He was an Englishman and Connery was King in our house.

    After seeing CR, it hurt me hard since I know old man David would have loved Craig (he enjoyed bits and pieces of the other Bonds, but never took to them as he took to Connery; knowing the old man as I did, Craig would have blown him out of the water).
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    jetsetwilly wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    Agreed with all of those you've listed @jetsetwilly

    I would also add there:

    1. Just don't make the next Bond so brooding, I'd liked to see Bond have his own personality or maybe adhere to the Connery Bond for balancing the personality of his Bond.
    I felt like Craig became too much brooding with no style or class or whatsoever, he's too much brute, I think Connery's Bond perfected it by being professional to his job and convincing as a killer, but at some point still have sophistication and class.
    There's a coolness in Connery's Bond, that Craig's Bond lacked, he almost felt like John Wick.
    Maybe that's what the modern trends clinging into nowadays, but I would be happy if they did.
    I don't liked any Dalton/Craig copy of Bond again, I'd liked the next Bond to have his own personality and balancing it.

    2. And If there's one thing I'd like to keep from the Craig Era, it's the Bond Girls like Camille or Paloma, who doesn't need to have an intimate interaction with Bond or yes, sex, that's one of the things I find better in Quantum of Solace is that Bond and Camille never got to have sex, the same for Paloma in No Time To Die, it's just a mutual relationship, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, there's no need for them to have sex, they could just work together.
    Bond could still be a womanizer but there's no need for him to have sex or bed any woman that he's with, I'm fine with mutual interactions, as long as they have great banter and chemistry, so it's probably the only thing from the Craig Era I would liked to keep.

    Yes I agree with all this too. It would be nice to see Bond smile a bit more and start enjoying life again, rather than being broody and moody all the time.

    I don’t understand the criticism of Craig’s Bond being too moody and broody. He was one of the more serious takes on it, and I know the personal drama was divisive, but I don’t see anything about his performance or characterisation that makes him broodier than Dalton or the original Fleming Bond. I reckon he actually had more Connery/Moore style humour than them. He just had a detached Mcqueen type coolness layered over the usual hedonism.

    I do think the films have gotten quite heavy and I’d like one that feels a bit lighter again, for the sake of keeping it fresh, but I don’t think the tone is necessarily the issue with that. I’d be up for more Connery style irony, but at the same time, my favourite is LTK, and that one has Bond at his moodiest. I still have a great time watching it because it’s a gripping, badass action film that doesn’t give you time to dwell on the nastiness. It’s the introspection, psychoanalysis and long runtimes they could do with ditching imo. Characterisation wise, I’m easy. I think they can make a fun film with any sort of Bond, it’s just all about how they execute it.

    Funny enough, LTK is my favourite too. Yet although Dalton had his angry moments, he still managed to have a laugh too (throwing the money out of the plane springs to mind).

    I found with the later Craig films there was too much of the darkened rooms, quiet, whispery dialogue, too much personal angst. By the end of NTTD you feel nothing but sympathy and pity for Bond, something I've never felt in any other Bond film (even OHMSS tragic ending).

    I feel in CR they got the balance right, but not in the later films.
  • jetsetwillyjetsetwilly
    Posts: 3,327
    mtm wrote: »
    I get puzzled at fans saying they don't want moody and broody when the next moment we get a picture of Brosnan or Dalton sat in their hotel rooms drinking booze alone and everyone gets excited about how Bondy they look.
    .


    :)) =D>

    That actually made me chuckle loudly.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    I vote for moody and broody. Are they in the remake of The Professionals?
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    edited April 2023 Posts: 2,270
    I think every Bond has their moments of cool. For me the coolest are Connery, Brosnan, and Craig. They have that aspect nailed perfectly.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    Brosnan veers too far into cheese to be genuinely cool for my money, but he is fun as Bond and gets everything generally right.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    If Brosnan had that biting edge in DAD from the start, he would have gone up in my estimation.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,270
    It’s all a difference of opinion but I think Brosnan has the cool factor. He can be a bit cheesy at times but so can the other Bond actors. I see it this way, if I see a Bond actor on screen and think to myself “Man I wish I could be like him”, he’s got that cool factor for my books, and I’ve felt that way during Connery, Brosnan, and Craig’s tenures. Also I really love early Roger Moore Bond for that reason too. He has this cool vibe to his earlier performances that’s kind of at odds with his more relaxed, humorous approach starting with TSWLM, even if scenes like the beating of Andrea is extremely dated.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I honestly think there were two actors in the role that were just naturally cool.

    I think two weren’t worried about the cool factor, didn’t try to be cool, but instead focused on their strengths.

    One was utterly lost in the role, but had flashes of natural coolness (mainly around the women characters).

    And one tried way too hard and never was cool.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Agreed: Connery and Craig are the only ones who blokes in the street actively aspired to be like.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,270
    I actually take back my answer. No James Bond comes close to being as cool as Barry Nelson.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    I actually take back my answer. No James Bond comes close to being as cool as Barry Nelson.

    😂 👍🏻 👍🏻 👍🏻 😂

    Post of the day and well done!! 😂

    (I didn’t see that coming!)
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,270
    peter wrote: »
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    I actually take back my answer. No James Bond comes close to being as cool as Barry Nelson.

    😂 👍🏻 👍🏻 👍🏻 😂

    Post of the day and well done!! 😂

    (I didn’t see that coming!)

    😂😂😂 I had to make that joke, I just watched it a few nights ago and it’s still a campy delight. It’s my favorite unofficial Bond film.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I can’t say I ever found Bond “aspiring”. Maybe certain aspect about Bond, but I could never relate to that idea of wanting to be Bond.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    edited April 2023 Posts: 2,270
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I can’t say I ever found Bond “aspiring”. Maybe certain aspect about Bond, but I could never relate to that idea of wanting to be Bond.

    It depends. First of all on what kind of aspect you wish could be replicated in yourself; in that case the sophisticatation, the humor, the elegant lifestyle he lives, his way with women. I think those elements could be looked at as Aspirational. Killing people and being sent on dangerous missions? I could do without that in my lifetime.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    Posts: 16,169
    I think all the Bonds were cool, including the stuttering David Niven.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think the only thing I would personally like of Bond’s life is the job sponsored international travels. Otherwise, I’m really a homebody. My dream life is living in a cabin up on the mountains.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,270
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I think all the Bonds were cool, including the stuttering David Niven.

    He’s certainly the classiest! He’s David Niven after all!
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I think the only thing I would personally like of Bond’s life is the job sponsored international travels. Otherwise, I’m really a homebody. My dream life is living in a cabin up on the mountains.

    Same here, I’d love to live in a secluded location.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Me too. Any day I don't see or hear another human is a good day. But Craig definitely had imitators in a way that Pierce, etc, didn't. For a good while after SF, every city centre in the UK had blokes with gym memberships sporting no.3 crops and too-tight grey suits! ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited April 2023 Posts: 16,413
    It's how the product placement works: 'every man wants to be him, every woman wants to be with him' etc. Some people buy Aston Martins because they want a bit of the 007 style, I think it's not unusual. Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone and that's fine.

    People always trot out the 'you'd be stupid to want to be like him as he gets tortured and beaten up by baddies' thing whenever the question of smoking arises and whether anyone would copy him, but that is to ignore a large part of his appeal over the years. If no-one ever found him slightly aspirational then all of those large firms paying top dollar to have him appear with/wear their gear over the last few decades would be pretty stupid, but I'd suggest that their very expensive marketing surveys tell them they're not.
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