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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • 00130013
    edited October 2012 Posts: 1,817
    Thesis 172: Disagree. It's the opposite: Mendes' Bond sets the tone for a more traditional Bond song!

    Thesis 173: Agree, even if the book relies on coincidence but that's even deeper in the film. For example, in the book Bond don't ask for Nassau because of Domino and his brother, instead M induces that the bombs should attack the US instead the UK, and Miami could be a plauseble target, so he sends Bond to Nassau.
  • VolanteVolante
    Posts: 774
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Volante wrote:
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 173</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>TB should have relied a little more on smart causality instead of pure coincidence.</b></font>

    I agree, while it's my favourite film and second favourite book, chance and luck play a large part in Bond's success. Just so happens that the man Spectre are going to use is in the same health clinic as him, just so happens that he gets into a fight with a Spectre operative, just so happens that the man he found dead has a sister so Bond plays a hunch to go to her, which turns out to be right. Then there's the mass of coincidences and luck once Bond makes it to Nassau.

    But isn't that a trend in Fleming's books? It just so happens the SMERSH agent doesn't kill Bond (and ends up saving him) in CR, it just so happens Bond finds out Mr. Big is keeping the gold in the fish tanks in LALD, it just so happens Drax goes to the same gentlemen's club as M (and it just so happens he's a cheat to make M suspicious), etc. etc.

    It's Fleming's nature.
    Disagree.

    I very much agree with that, coincidences are frequent in Fleming. But I find in Thunderball, more so in the film than the book, there are more coincidences and Bond has more luck than in the others.
  • SJK91SJK91
    edited October 2012 Posts: 1,310
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 173</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>TB should have relied a little more on smart causality instead of pure coincidence.</b></font>
    Never really noticed this, actually. Truth be told, I haven't watched a Bond movie like a normal film in a long time. I treat it more of an activity than viewing experience to be honest. Because I already know the next scene and the next and the next, it is almost hard to view like any other movie! But next time I watch TB, I'm going to ATTEMPT to follow the film at its intended pace (as opposed to thinking 20 minutes ahead).
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    It's getting late, so this will do for this night, but was I alone in not fully understanding the last thesis? Feeling quite tired now also

    I haven't seen Thunderball for so long now as it is, don't even own a copy but blow it, it seems thesis could be correct. I don't remember too many coincidences in the film is what I should say and from what I know, it is a smart casual adventure ?

    Getting in a tangle with this I feel, so it's a Goodnight
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Catching up on a few of these....
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 169</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Conti's action suites for FYEO would have worked better in the 70's.</b></font>

    Agreed.
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 170</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>OHMSS wasn't given a fair chance by critics, no matter what the quality of the film was.</b></font>

    Not so sure about this. I looked up some reviews of OHMSS from when it was first released. They're much more positive than I had initially believed.

    From the main website:

    http://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/history_press_ohmss_critics.php3?t=mi6&s=ohmss

    And some I found on my own:

    "A big, flashy production, too, is 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service', the latest of the James Bond series, but with a rank amateur(and I guess I mean that) substituted for the suave Sean Connery. The new Bond is George Lazenby and it's kind of touching watching him attempt to get the delivery of his lines, although I must admit that a less sympathetic audience will only laugh at the wrong moments. Mr. Lazenby, however, is tall, has a pleasant face and a manner that would probably also strike us as pleasant if we met him personally rather than in a movie. And, aside from Lazenby, this new 007 adventure delivers its full load of action and violence, this time directed by Peter Hunt.

    "We meet Bond in Switzerland, mainly, where he encounters several willing and ready girls and a bald-headed villain, naturally played by Telly Savalas. It's a four-thunk movie, by which I mean just as Bond is about to indulge his carnal appetites with a beauty, somebody him hits him over the head and the sound track emits a loud thunk. Any normal man would develop a bad case of impotence. But not Bond. He'll be back and rutting you may be sure."

    -Hollis Alpert,Saturday Review-January 10, 1970


    "The latest episode in the super-serial of the sixties, the new James Bond thriller, 'On Her Majesty's Secret Service' is set mainly in Switzerland and it's marvellous fun. It introduces a new Bond, George Lazenby, who's quite a dull fellow, and the script isn't much either, but the movie is exciting anyway. The director, Peter Hunt, is a wizard at action sequences, particularly an ethereal ski chase that you know is a classic while you're goggling at it, and a mean, fast bobsled chase that is shot and edited like nothing I've ever seen before. I know that on one level it's not worth doing, but it sure has been done brilliantly. Diana Rigg is a tall, amusing Mrs. Bond; it's a shame they kill her off (in a bad 'sincere' ending). A wife never hurt Nick Charles and the Bond figure is beginning to need all the help he can get. Gabriele Ferzetti (the hero of 'L'Aventura,' who is aging to look like Olivier) is an amiable gangster-tycoon; he and Ilse Steppat, the indefatigable villainess, help give the picture some tone."

    -Pauline Kael,The New Yorker-January 3, 1970

    From Molly Haskell, December 25, 1969-

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0uwjAAAAIBAJ&amp;sjid=K4wDAAAAIBAJ&amp;pg=4651,5097114&amp;dq=molly+haskell+on+her+majesty's+secret+service&amp;hl=en

    And Roger Ebert, December 29, 1969-

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0pZlAAAAIBAJ&amp;sjid=1ooNAAAAIBAJ&amp;dq=on her majesty's secret service&amp;pg=1460,4258993

    So I would say disagree.

    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 173</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>TB should have relied a little more on smart causality instead of pure coincidence.</b></font>

    It's never bothered me since TB's my favorite Bond film I'd say disagree.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2012 Posts: 24,257
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 174</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Lois Maxwell's Moneypenny was allowed to age only because Moore's Bond visibly aged as well.</b></font>
  • Signed_By_RogerMooreSigned_By_RogerMoore
    Posts: 643
    Absolutely agree on this one.

    I do think Moneypenny is matched to the actor who plays Bond in terms of age/chemistry/looking your age factor...just turns out a young Lois Maxwell matched Connery's bond and an older Lois Maxwell matched Moore's Bond in terms of the aforementioned criteria of age/chemistry/both looking same age.
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    edited October 2012 Posts: 5,745
    Disagree.

    She was a character when they had only recast Bond (and Felix). They were still trying to keep the same 'family' to make the change in Bond actors believable. Moneypenny and M are two of the major reason we know Sean, George, and Roger are all the same Bond. She cemented the fact that Bond has always been one man. Plus, her and Moore had the best chemistry (in my opinion).

    This was before they decided they could recast everyone when they wanted.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,356
    I agree with this one. Further proof seems to be Moneypenny's assistant in Octopussy who is ready to take up a similar type role had Moore not stayed on.
  • TrueMiracle85TrueMiracle85
    Posts: 300
    My initial response would be yes, but I'm going to go with no. I believe the producers, especially Broccoli liked to not only keep consistency where they could between the films, but I think they also valued the veteran actors like Maxwell on a personal level since they were there from the beginning. I'm sure if the relationship between Cubby and Sean was the opposite of what it unfortunately became, Connery could very well have done a couple more. Remember, this is a time frame where Connery would never have made "Never Say Never Again." Maxwell was such a professional and playful actor that she was able to find chemistry with all the Bonds she interacted with in my opinion.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    I never really gave it much thought to be honest, we never really see much of Moneypenny (Bliss had around twenty seconds in her last appearance), and as for Maxwell, it was a nice touch that they gave her a little extended part for her final appearance at the horse racing. I think as Moore got older, particularly into the 1980s, they did the right thing keeping Maxwell on board, but of course, once Moore departed and in came a new younger actor, we had a new younger 'penny, but what if Moore had decided to do another in 1987?, I think Maxwell had already decided to leave at the time of AVTAK. I feel inclined to agree with thesis but also that there was evident chemistry with not only Moore, but Connery and Lazenby also, I quite enjoyed some of the scenes they had together in OHMSS. Some of the best Bond/'Penny moments of the entire series happened that year
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited October 2012 Posts: 2,629
    I'm going to agree. I think we can all agree that Lois did not age well. But I feel the right decision was made to keep Moore and Maxwell together for as long as they did. We had more than our fill of Roger with much younger women. While I'm certain that Dalton and Maxwell could have worked well together, Dalton's comparative youth would have been painfully obvious.
  • 0iker00iker0
    Posts: 501
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Disagree.

    She was a character when they had only recast Bond (and Felix). They were still trying to keep the same 'family' to make the change in Bond actors believable. Moneypenny and M are two of the major reason we know Sean, George, and Roger are all the same Bond. She cemented the fact that Bond has always been one man. Plus, her and Moore had the best chemistry (in my opinion).

    This was before they decided they could recast everyone when they wanted.

    Completely agree with you, disagree with the Thesis
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2012 Posts: 24,257
    I don't think they would have kept her on, had Timothy Dalton for example stepped in for FYEO in '81. ;-)
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    Posts: 5,745
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I don't think they would have kept her on, had Timothy Dalton for example stepped in for FYEO in '81. ;-)

    But, as aforementioned, Moore took over before I think they were comfortable recasting other characters. By '81, they said 'to hell with it'.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 174</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Lois Maxwell's Moneypenny was allowed to age only because Moore's Bond visibly aged as well.</b></font>

    Agree. Made sense to persue with Lois until Moore stepped down? Then start afresh with the new casting of the role.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 175</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The detailed showing of computers will age GE faster than had they not been shown.</b></font>
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Agree. The rate of tech advancement makes it so
  • 0iker00iker0
    Posts: 501
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 175</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The detailed showing of computers will age GE faster than had they not been shown.</b></font>
    Agree, it does already feel a little old to me now.

  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 175</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The detailed showing of computers will age GE faster than had they not been shown.</b></font>

    Agree. Although the datedness of any aspects of a Bond film have never bothered me.

  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 175</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The detailed showing of computers will age GE faster than had they not been shown.</b></font>

    Agree: You could say that about alot of movies though. How about the classic film "Wargames".
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    True. However I'm able to look past the computers and to be fair, GE remains to this day one of the most timeless of the Bonds in many regards, at least IMO.
  • ThepastykidThepastykid
    edited October 2012 Posts: 553
    I think the score dates it worse than the computers, so I disagree
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    Really? I would argue the score to have a rather timeless aura around it. ;-)
  • ThepastykidThepastykid
    edited October 2012 Posts: 553
    Yeah - happy to be disagreed with, but like or hate the Arnold scores they sound a lot less dated to me than the Goldeneye score, but I know some love it

    Edit: just seen the wink....duh!
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    edited October 2012 Posts: 5,745
    Thepastykid wrote:
    Yeah - happy to be disagreed with, but like or hate the Arnold scores they sound a lot less dated to me than the Goldeneye score, but I know some love it

    Edit: just seen the wink....duh!

    I don't know... TMD has some pretty.. 'vintage' stuff if you ask me. All that synth is enough to make you sick!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 176</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Craig Bond is played out more as a professional assassin than as a professional spy.</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,356
    So far, maybe, in a few weeks, maybe not. Things could be about to change.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Disagree. Dan's Bond hasn't even killed that many people. Compare that to Brosnan's era (the most kills), and Craig's Bond isn't the mass killer he seems to be. I would say there is a fair amount of Bond getting intel and dishing out punches to more than satisfy a Bond fan.
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    edited October 2012 Posts: 5,745
    Yes, CR opened with an assassination. Yes it followed with another one, but the free-runner was better off dead in Bond's situation; he was supposed to get intel off of him!
    The rest of CR is purely 'professional spy'. Mollaka or whoever attacked him, so he had to kill him. LeChiffre died from a professional assassin.

    Quantum is tough to decide on. He's 'rogue spy', not so professional. Slate was indeed a 'dead end', and he got all the information he needed from Greene before leaving him to die.

    Brady is right, he hasn't 'assassinated' that many people. In fact more of his kills are in defense. As is usual with a spy.
    Disagree.
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