The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Yes, CR opened with an assassination. Yes it followed with another one, but the free-runner was better off dead in Bond's situation; he was supposed to get intel off of him!
    The rest of CR is purely 'professional spy'. Mollaka or whoever attacked him, so he had to kill him. LeChiffre died from a professional assassin.

    Quantum is tough to decide on. He's 'rogue spy', not so professional. Slate was indeed a 'dead end', and he got all the information he needed from Greene before leaving him to die.

    Brady is right, he hasn't 'assassinated' that many people. In fact more of his kills are in defense. As is usual with a spy.
    Disagree.

    And Dimitrios came at him with the knife at Body World, so we can discount that, and he needed to ice Carlos to stop the Skyfleet plane from going up. Obanno and his man were going on the offensive, Bond played defense and won. Mitchell needed to be held, but the situation turned into a sudden death match Bond couldn't afford to lose. Slate wasn't that important, because the case was what Bond needed (the money if you will) and he just impersonated Slate anyway. The Bolivian General was revenge for poor Mathis, and Bond didn't kill Greene, Quantum did that for him.
  • Posts: 5,745
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Yes, CR opened with an assassination. Yes it followed with another one, but the free-runner was better off dead in Bond's situation; he was supposed to get intel off of him!
    The rest of CR is purely 'professional spy'. Mollaka or whoever attacked him, so he had to kill him. LeChiffre died from a professional assassin.

    Quantum is tough to decide on. He's 'rogue spy', not so professional. Slate was indeed a 'dead end', and he got all the information he needed from Greene before leaving him to die.

    Brady is right, he hasn't 'assassinated' that many people. In fact more of his kills are in defense. As is usual with a spy.
    Disagree.

    And Dimitrios came at him with the knife at Body World, so we can discount that, and he needed to ice Carlos to stop the Skyfleet plane from going up. Obanno and his man were going on the offensive, Bond played defense and won. Mitchell needed to be held, but the situation turned into a sudden death match Bond couldn't afford to lose. Slate wasn't that important, because the case was what Bond needed (the money if you will) and he just impersonated Slate anyway. The Bolivian General was revenge for poor Mathis, and Bond didn't kill Greene, Quantum did that for him.

    Precisely. Your memory is phenomenal, by the way.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Disagree. CR was about becoming a 00 and QOS was a revenge film pretty much.
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 12,837
    Not really an assassin since he hasn't actually killed that many, but he hasn't done much spy work either.

    But he has beaten tons of people up. He's been portrayed as more of a puncher than a spy, I think that's a fairer label.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    He's been portrayed as more of a puncher than a spy, I think that's a fairer label.

    "Brawler" I think is the term.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Not really an assassin since he hasn't actually killed that many, but he hasn't done much spy work either.

    But he has beaten tons of people up. He's been portrayed as more of a puncher than a spy, I think that's a fairer label.
    Oh contraire.

    CR:
    *Found Dryden's contact and got Dryden
    *Worked with a flawed Carter in Madagascar to get Mollaka
    *Attained the phone, found the location of the phone that sent ELLIPSIS near the Ocean Club, caused a distraction while playing valet, and used the tapes at the Ocean Club to find out that the phone belonged to Dimitrios
    *He uses Solange to get to Dimitrios, and finds out that he is on his way to Miami, where Bond spots him passing on a key.
    *Uses the phone he attained in Madagascar to pin point Carlos and stop him
    *Destabilizes Le Chiffre and makes him nervous with Mathis's assistance
    *Discovers Vesper's true intentions and tracks her down
    *Gets put on the track of White thanks to Vesper

    QoS:
    *Pinpoints the location of the money in Haiti, and becomes Slate, getting in close to Camille, who leads him to Medrano and on Greene's scent.
    *Single-handedly breaks in on Quantum's meeting and flushes out the place, getting photographic evidence of everyone on the move (except for the brilliantly seated Mr. White)
    *Uses the flight number of Greene's/CIA's plane to trace Greene's landing location
    *Fakes an identity of a teacher on sabbatical to score a nice hotel
    *Finds out Quantum's real plot while in the sink holes
    *Finds the hotel Greene is finishing forming his plans at, and stops him


  • edited October 2012 Posts: 12,837
    *Found Dryden's contact and got Dryden

    But we don't see it, he just talks about it. When we seem him with the contact he's instantly beating him up. It happened, but not in the film.
    *Worked with a flawed Carter in Madagascar to get Mollaka

    We never saw them working to track him or anything, we just saw them talking followed by a free running chase.
    QoS:*Pinpoints the location of the money in Haiti, and becomes Slate, getting in close to Camille, who leads him to Medrano and on Greene's scent.

    Didn't the computer find the moneys location?
    *Finds out Quantum's real plot while in the sink holes

    That's less spy work, more crashing a plane and stumbling onto the villians plan.

    The rest of your list though, fair enough.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    *Found Dryden's contact and got Dryden

    But we don't see it, he just talks about it. When we seem him with the contact he's instantly beating him up. It happened, but not in the film.
    *Worked with a flawed Carter in Madagascar to get Mollaka

    We never saw them working to track him or anything, we just saw them talking followed by a free running chase.
    QoS:*Pinpoints the location of the money in Haiti, and becomes Slate, getting in close to Camille, who leads him to Medrano and on Greene's scent.

    Didn't the computer find the moneys location?
    *Finds out Quantum's real plot while in the sink holes

    That's less spy work, more crashing a plane and stumbling onto the villians plan.

    The rest of your list though, fair enough.

    As for Dryden's contact, we see that Bond has his location at a tennis match (deleted scene).

    In Madagascar, Bond and Carter have found Mollaka and are stacking him out. They know he has a bomb. Maybe he is having a buyer show up? They wait and see what happens, until Carter ruins it all.

    You are right about the computer finding the bills, but it is Bond who goes into the field and secure's Slate. Not the best example.

    I'll give you some footing on the sink hole issue, but Bond still sees the water and connects that with the draught to see Quantum's real plot.

  • Posts: 5,745
    If they included all the spy work in Craig's movies, they'd be 5 hours long!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    If they included all the spy work in Craig's movies, they'd be 5 hours long!

    And the man doesn't have much to do besides what he has on his plate. He knows the threat in both CR (after the Skyfleet episode he is sure) and QoS. You don't need much more spy work once you have an enemy location other than in the field covert action/cover identity/on site contacts.
  • @DarthDimi I have a thesis idea: If Desmond (RIP) was still alive, Q would've been in Casino Royale.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2012 Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 177</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>If Desmond was still alive, Q would've been featured in Casino Royale.</b></font>
  • edited October 2012 Posts: 643
    Disagree

    I think acknowledging a reboot, Desmond would have retired from the role. I do think with him being alive, there would have been space made for Q in CR just with a different actor like in Skyfall as a nod (even if it was him inserting the tracker in Bond's arm). Because Desmond died 7 years before CR, I think the producers had more space to leave him out. I know Q was in DAD but still, in the hearts and minds of Bond fans, Desmond was Q
  • Agree. If he was still healthy enough I don't think the producers would've fired him because he was so popular and he'd been with the series for so long.

    And he actually said (I think, might not be his exact words) "I'll keep playing Q until the producers don't want me or God does", so I don't think he'd have stepped down himself if he was healthy.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 121
    Agree.
    If he was able to then he would of. The 'reboot' theory I don't works as they brought Dench because the producers said they couldn't drop her (though her contract may of been involved) because she was too good and I think the case is the same with Desmond. He was Q and he will be I think for a very long time if not forever.
  • As before, Llewelyn stated shortly before his tragic death that he was willing to play Q so long as they wanted him and was fit and able. Maybe with Royale coming six years after The World Is Not Enough, the time gap may have been significant but if he was able to participate once again then it's just about plausible. If not for the motor accident he would well have been featured in Die Another Day you have to feel. Cleese would of been present again as his one day replacement I'm thinking. The thing is, it's all hypothetical so we can't really tell what would of occured. Thesis seems plausible enough, but only just, so I'd go along with it this time
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I'm inclined to Agree. However I think a perfect send off for Q would be Bond visiting Q in retirement with his Gadget laden motorboat and they have a talk about there time in the service and it ends with Bond giving Q a hug or something. In my mind that would have been a nice way for Q and Brosnan's Bond to end on a very high note.
  • Posts: 774
    Personally I feel Desmond's last appearance should've been in Licence to Kill. I love the OHMSS, LTK poignant Bond/Q moments where they show that they truly do care about each other and it would've been nice to have ended his character in a film where that was best displayed.

    Despite saying that, I do love Desmond in Brosnan's era, I just feel that the antagonistic relationship was a bit tired by that point. Really wish he had gotten a better send off, and feel LTK would've been a good vehicle for that.
  • Volante wrote:
    Personally I feel Desmond's last appearance should've been in Licence to Kill. I love the OHMSS, LTK poignant Bond/Q moments where they show that they truly do care about each other and it would've been nice to have ended his character in a film where that was best displayed.

    Despite saying that, I do love Desmond in Brosnan's era, I just feel that the antagonistic relationship was a bit tired by that point. Really wish he had gotten a better send off, and feel LTK would've been a good vehicle for that.

    I think TWINE was a good send off because when Q talks about retiring, Bond actually looks sad and it shows he cares about him.
  • Posts: 774
    Volante wrote:
    Personally I feel Desmond's last appearance should've been in Licence to Kill. I love the OHMSS, LTK poignant Bond/Q moments where they show that they truly do care about each other and it would've been nice to have ended his character in a film where that was best displayed.

    Despite saying that, I do love Desmond in Brosnan's era, I just feel that the antagonistic relationship was a bit tired by that point. Really wish he had gotten a better send off, and feel LTK would've been a good vehicle for that.

    I think TWINE was a good send off because when Q talks about retiring, Bond actually looks sad and it shows he cares about him.

    That was my favourite Q/Brosnan Bond moment and I'm glad that it was in Desmond's final film, even though it wasn't intended to be his last.
  • Posts: 501
    Volante wrote:
    Volante wrote:
    Personally I feel Desmond's last appearance should've been in Licence to Kill. I love the OHMSS, LTK poignant Bond/Q moments where they show that they truly do care about each other and it would've been nice to have ended his character in a film where that was best displayed.

    Despite saying that, I do love Desmond in Brosnan's era, I just feel that the antagonistic relationship was a bit tired by that point. Really wish he had gotten a better send off, and feel LTK would've been a good vehicle for that.

    I think TWINE was a good send off because when Q talks about retiring, Bond actually looks sad and it shows he cares about him.

    That was my favourite Q/Brosnan Bond moment and I'm glad that it was in Desmond's final film, even though it wasn't intended to be his last.

    Wasn't it, I always thought it was planned to be the last, it's at least edited in that way. Thanks for the info!
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 177</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>If Desmond was still alive, Q would've been featured in Casino Royale.</b></font>

    Disagree. As much as i love dear old Desmond. He made it clear he wanted to step down from the role, hence the inclusion of "R".
  • Posts: 7,653
    I think with Desmond around and him willing he would have been Q in Craigs timeline.

    I think they opted for Cleese as R in order to insure some continuiety for when Desmond would no longer be around, as the man was really getting a bit older. Not sure why they discontinued R, but that would be a nice interview question for Wilson and Broccoli one day.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 178</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The fact that Connery was willing to return for DAF made them confident enough not to care too much about script and story.</b></font>
  • Heartily disagree!

    Diamonds are Forever is an amazingly terrific film in which Sean Connery gives one of his best Bond performances! I wrote a review here:

    http://www.mi6community.com/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/165079#Comment_165079

    DAF has a sparkling script and story! Connery's return was the icing on the cake
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited October 2012 Posts: 28,694
    Yeah, sparkling like urine. The thesis is probably true, as I can't think of any other reason why Blofeld would be dressed up in drag, amongst all the other problems this sorry excuse for a film has.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Yes and NO,
    the movie has its great moments and its failures. As always I am not always sure about the choices made by EON. But sadly enough the second part of DAF is fairly poorish.

    The fight in the elevator is still 007 magic brutal as hell.
  • Disagree. It's a poor film, but I put that less down to overconfidence and more down to the opposite. OHMSS had underperformed, the spy craze was over, they were on film number 7, and attempts to make a more human Bond film had "failed". So they went bigger, broader and more comedic.
  • THESIS 178

    Agree- plus another thing to consider is how much of the budget went towards hiring Connery. Lazenby (or another actor) would have been way less and the movie would have been way better as a result. For the life of me I can't imagine the plot and tone remaining as we know it if Lazenby was back.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 178</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The fact that Connery was willing to return for DAF made them confident enough not to care too much about script and story.</b></font>

    Disagree. My feeling on this is that they should not have asked Connery back. They panicked in my opinion due to GL listening to his idiotic agent!
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