The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • Posts: 4,762
    No, absolutely not. There is nothing wrong with Pierce Brosnan as 007, and in fact, he has more Bond-ness in him than Sean Bean would, though I like Bean just as much as Brosnan. Besides, Sean Bean works better as a villain, given some of his other performances in movies like The Patroit Games and National Treasure 1.
  • Bean as Bond- Absolutly. Brosnan as Trevelyn- Absolutly NOT. Do you really think Brosnan (especially in the 90s) had the acting ability to portary such a complex and interesting villan? He would've ruined GE even more than he already did.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Bean as Bond- Absolutly. Brosnan as Trevelyn- Absolutly NOT. Do you really think Brosnan (especially in the 90s) had the acting ability to portary such a complex and interesting villan? He would've ruined GE even more than he already did.

    These change in attitudes really are laughable sometimes. The James Bond Encyclopedia I have referrs to him as being the film's "greatest asset".
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    Bean as Bond- Absolutly. Brosnan as Trevelyn- Absolutly NOT. Do you really think Brosnan (especially in the 90s) had the acting ability to portary such a complex and interesting villan? He would've ruined GE even more than he already did.

    These change in attitudes really are laughable sometimes. The James Bond Encyclopedia I have referrs to him as being the film's "greatest asset".

    Ofcourse they will. They won't say he sucks now will they? What kind of promotional material is that. But us fans know better. Brosnan's acting has improved in recent years but at the time he was extreamly limited. Any time he tried to "act" (TWINE) he came off as laughable.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Bean as Bond- Absolutly. Brosnan as Trevelyn- Absolutly NOT. Do you really think Brosnan (especially in the 90s) had the acting ability to portary such a complex and interesting villan? He would've ruined GE even more than he already did.

    These change in attitudes really are laughable sometimes. The James Bond Encyclopedia I have referrs to him as being the film's "greatest asset".

    Ofcourse they will. They won't say he sucks now will they? What kind of promotional material is that. But us fans know better. Brosnan's acting has improved in recent years but at the time he was extreamly limited. Any time he tried to "act" (TWINE) he came off as laughable.

    No but they didn't need to say he was the films "greatest asset" either. From what I remember most people didn't have a big issue with him - then.

    Do "us fans" really know better? Fans will follow trends. I bet you if this forum had existed in the 90s most people would be praising him.

    I actually thought he was pretty good in TWINE (for the most part). I recall Haphazard saying he thought it was Brozza's best performance.

    I'll agree though that Brozza wasn't (or isn't) a great actor but he has got better with age. I thought he was FAR worse in a film like Taffin. Thank god he wasnt bond in 1986.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 017</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Bond beating women back in the '60s / '70s should not be considered offensive.</b></font>
  • Agree. First of all most of them were double-agents or working for Specture or something. Second of all it's more realistic for a spy who's supposed to do anything to acheive his objectives and get information. And thirdly they're fantasy stories for men. Now before you call me sexist, I mean that is in men could go see them and see a member of their sex totally in control of every other member of the opposite sex.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Bean as Bond- Absolutly. Brosnan as Trevelyn- Absolutly NOT. Do you really think Brosnan (especially in the 90s) had the acting ability to portary such a complex and interesting villan? He would've ruined GE even more than he already did.

    These change in attitudes really are laughable sometimes. The James Bond Encyclopedia I have referrs to him as being the film's "greatest asset".

    Ofcourse they will. They won't say he sucks now will they? What kind of promotional material is that. But us fans know better. Brosnan's acting has improved in recent years but at the time he was extreamly limited. Any time he tried to "act" (TWINE) he came off as laughable.

    No but they didn't need to say he was the films "greatest asset" either. From what I remember most people didn't have a big issue with him - then.

    Do "us fans" really know better? Fans will follow trends. I bet you if this forum had existed in the 90s most people would be praising him.

    I actually thought he was pretty good in TWINE (for the most part). I recall Haphazard saying he thought it was Brozza's best performance.

    I'll agree though that Brozza wasn't (or isn't) a great actor but he has got better with age. I thought he was FAR worse in a film like Taffin. Thank god he wasnt bond in 1986.

    After the haitus everyone was kissing Brosnan's a$$. Time has been very telling with Brosnan. People are starting to realise in retrospective that he was nothing special.

    And personally I never liked him as Bond. I often describe him as a poor man's Roger Moore and a homeless man's Sean Connery.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited January 2012 Posts: 13,355
    Indeed. It's all to do with the time the films were made in. I have no problem with it.
  • Posts: 12,526
    i agree with the thesis, and when you look at other films and film catagories? Bond violence on the women at the time and even now is pretty tame when you look horror films.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    RogueAgent wrote:
    i agree with the thesis, and when you look at other films and film catagories? Bond violence on the women at the time and even now is pretty tame when you look horror films.

    That's a good thing too. I wouldn't want to see Bond put on a hockey mask, yield a machete and chase some half naked bimbo through the woods.

    Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I might find it interesting for just this once perhaps. ;-)
  • Posts: 1,497
    Yes, it is "of the times". But is it offensive? Absolutely.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Whether we consider it offensive or not its irrelevant as we can't do anything about something made in the 60s.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited January 2012 Posts: 12,480
    One more for the Brosnan/Bean debate : Well, I like Brosnan as Bond. I do. And I think the man can act. So there is my opinion on that.
    Having said that, I LOVE Sean Bean and would have dearly liked to have seen him as Bond. He would be a great Bond. Oh yes!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    One for the PC - hitting women in older Bond movies, etc. debate:
    The films are a reflection of society at that time in history ... but certain things are always to me offensive. Sometimes physical abuse is offensive. Racist remarks are offensive. I do not excuse them to the point where I say they are OK or do not matter. I don't get hung up on this though, either.
  • Posts: 1,497
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Whether we consider it offensive or not its irrelevant as we can't do anything about something made in the 60s.

    The question of the debate though is should Bond beating women in the 60's/70's be considered offensive? Yes. But that doesn't diminish the quality of the films as a whole. Likewise, just because they are classics to me and you, doesn't excuse them from moral ethics. We can't change them, but that doesn't mean the scenes still aren't offensive.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Ultimately its pointless BEING offended by them though. As M said so wonderfully in GE Bond IS sexist and IS mysoganist so those films just showed Bond...being Bond to an effect. So no, I don't think people should be too het up by them - just consider them for what they are a product of a bygone era.

    They were sometimes quite uncomfortable to watch but so was Fleming's rant about women working in the field (CR).

    I'm not saying scenes like that should be repeated today. It just wouldn't work regardless of what some of us hardcore fans might say. We've moved on from that. Hitting women isn't a good or glamorous thing.

    I could get into an argument about women hitting men (*cough*Brosnan*cough*) and men hitting women but I'm not going to.

    A similar example actually happened yesterday. I was watching a really old Hitchcock movie from the 1920s where the N-word was openly used towards a black man. Initially I was quite taken aback but then I just brushed it off an accepted it. Can't do much about it so why worry.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    RogueAgent wrote:
    i agree with the thesis, and when you look at other films and film catagories? Bond violence on the women at the time and even now is pretty tame when you look horror films.

    Agreed. The worst Bond did to a woman was slap them in the face or bottom. Note that Bond never hit a woman a second time. There were many instances in other non-Bond films after TMWTGG was released that a woman was treated far worse by a man.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 401
    Are we counting Klebb?
    JBFan626 wrote:
    But is it offensive? Absolutely.
    Ehh, that's not exactly true. When Bond hit them, he had a reason. when he hit Andrea Anders in TMWTGG it was for a reason, he need information, he got it fast. Again, in DAF; he choked Marie (with her bra) because he needed Blofeld's location. Simple as that. Also, It's not like he went around in the films hitting women for 2 hours. He didn't step into Universal Exports and hit Moneypenny across the mouth. I don't get why this is a big issue with some.

  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited January 2012 Posts: 2,629
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    But is it offensive? Absolutely.
    Ehh, that's not exactly true. When Bond hit them, he had a reason. when he hit Andrea Anders in TMWTGG it was for a reason, he need information, he got it fast. Simple as that. It's not like he went around in the films hitting women for 2 hours. He didn't step into Universal Exports and hit Moneypenny across the mouth.

    Tatiana actually shot Klebb. But anyways, I like your point. Bond didn't slap Tatiana, Tracy, Tiffany or Andrea without reason or randomly slap Moneypenny, although he did threaten to spank her once. The only time anyone could really come down on Bond was when he slapped Dink's butt in GF.

    We should note other instances of someone other than Bond hitting woman. Draco knocking out Tracy, Kananga back handing Solitaire, Kristatos slapping Bibi and Gobinda KOing Octopussy come to mind. These four instances were, shall we say, less than honorable.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 401
    Kerim wrote:
    Tatiana actually shot Klebb.

    Oh god, that's right isn't it? Stupid mistake on my part.

  • I never found it offensive at all. Bond always had a good reason.

    And isn't it a little sexist anyway to preach that women should be completely off limits? ;)
  • Posts: 1,817
    I really hate when Draco hits Tracy... I hate it more than DAD's surfing, TMWTGG's slide whistle, Jaws in MR, Blofeld in drag... more than any other awful thing in Bond.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    I always cringe at Dink being slapped and Tracy being hit by Bond.

    Tatiana, Tiffany, and Andrea bother me less, maybe because it seems more motivated by the plot (especially Tatiana). Hitting Tracy is the most off-putting because she turns out to be so important to Bond later on.

  • Posts: 1,497
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Ultimately its pointless BEING offended by them though. As M said so wonderfully in GE Bond IS sexist and IS mysoganist so those films just showed Bond...being Bond to an effect. So no, I don't think people should be too het up by them - just consider them for what they are a product of a bygone era.

    They were sometimes quite uncomfortable to watch but so was Fleming's rant about women working in the field (CR).

    I'm not saying scenes like that should be repeated today. It just wouldn't work regardless of what some of us hardcore fans might say. We've moved on from that. Hitting women isn't a good or glamorous thing.

    I could get into an argument about women hitting men (*cough*Brosnan*cough*) and men hitting women but I'm not going to.

    A similar example actually happened yesterday. I was watching a really old Hitchcock movie from the 1920s where the N-word was openly used towards a black man. Initially I was quite taken aback but then I just brushed it off an accepted it. Can't do much about it so why worry.

    Precisely. Well said my friend. What I fine offensive is more the comments below, which suggest that it is okay for Bond to hit women if they provide some information to him. Bond has other resources to get information, namely his charm. I understand he needs to come across as firm and no-nonsense, as in the scenes with Tatiana and Tiffany, but there are other means of intimidation. And why should Tracy be off limits from being hit because of this logic? She's not a disposable Bond girl, therefore she shouldn't be hit? Please.

    In regards to the scene with Andrea in Golden Gun, that scene is so unpleasant to watch. Moore himself said he was uncomfortable doing that scene, but the director wanted him to do it that way so that his Bond came across as tough. You know that Moore-Bond could have easily seduced Andrea into falling in love with him and getting the info he needed. It's just crass.

  • Posts: 105
    JBFan626 wrote:
    In regards to the scene with Andrea in Golden Gun, that scene is so unpleasant to watch. Moore himself said he was uncomfortable doing that scene, but the director wanted him to do it that way so that his Bond came across as tough. You know that Moore-Bond could have easily seduced Andrea into falling in love with him and getting the info he needed. It's just crass.

    To be honest I thought that scene gave Sir Rog's bond more dynamic than the usual charm he used during the rest of his tenure. I'm not saying that they needed to go over board with it or anything, just that it was nice to see something new.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 018</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Three countdown climaxes in three consecutive films (OP, AVTAK, TLD) was lazy.</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    It doesn't feel lazy. The films are so different and with A View To A Kill in the middle, that one kind of doesn't register with me, instead I think we have two great ones in the films either side. A different actor as Bond also helps keep it fresh and the sequences the countdowns are in are top-notch, really good. Even the May Day one!

    The countdowns themselves are far better than the one in Goldfinger in my opinion.

    Lazy, well, it goes a way to prove the lack of ideas in the '80's (Glen?) but it was done well, and that is what matters.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 3,274
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <b>Three countdown climaxes in three consecutive films (OP, AVTAK, TLD) was lazy.</b>
    Disagree! As Samuel001 puts it, they are far better than the one in GF (and YOLT for that matter). I especially like the one in OP. That was a great scene, which was tense because no one in the circus believed Bond.
  • Posts: 1,497
    Disagree as well. The AVTAK one is unique in that it is martyr scene for May Day.

    Countdowns, while perhaps cliche to a degree, at least are effective tension building devices. So I think they work in the context of each of these individual plots.
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