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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited April 2013 Posts: 12,837
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote:
    half the 80s

    Fair enough the 70s weren't great (although I love TSWLM and I don't mind LALD) but the early 80s gave us For Your Eyes Only and Octopussy. These are great movies that definitely had depth.
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    Posts: 1,407
    In my opinion there was only one really bad misstep in the 80's and that was AVTAK. Every other film is extremely entertaining to watch. I'm glad Blofeld's final appearance was in a film like FYEO (no matter how bad the appearance was).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited May 2013 Posts: 24,257
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 208</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>"TSWLM was half an hour too long, thanks to the obligatory shoot-'em-up conclusion." [Janet Maslin of The New York Times]</b></font>
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    The conclusion was a bit overblown, but the final battle was an exciting, if over-the-top end to an exciting, if over-the-top, Bond movie. Besides, it was a narrative necessity. You have a ship full of enemies and two submarines worth of British and Russian sailors and what else can you do with them? Have them talk it out?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    The last time I saw it the ending did feel a little too long, but it is a great fight, quite epic in nature. And seeing the Brits, Yanks and Russians join together to kick some evil arse is just plain cool.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    Thesis 207: Agree, should have been ALOT grittier considering the conclusion of OHMSS.
    Thesis 208: Disagree, i think its just about right.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited April 2013 Posts: 13,356
    I do think it's too long and just too big for what it sets out to be. I agree and think with a rewrite, the whole film could have been improved.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I think that it's more of a pacing issue to be honest. It also could have been improved by an epic Barry score.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Some of the time in TSWLM could have been spent fleshing out Stromberg, something desperately needed. Talk about giving hardly any screentime to your villain. I don't even care about his plot because of how little he features, and don't really feel anything resembling care when Bond kills him either.
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    Posts: 1,407
    I know many people who do agree that it is too long but I am actually not one of them. I do agree with @Brady 100% about needing to flesh out Stromberg
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited May 2013 Posts: 24,257
    pachazo wrote:
    It also could have been improved by an epic Barry score.

    I agree with @pachazo! Scores and their importance are often underestimated. Yet they are the colour, the flavour and the spice for any film. Barry's scores have been pivotal in many cases to make the difference between a great film and a superb film. A Barry score could have worked like magic for TSWLM. The difference, for me, is huge. I reckon that between TSWLM and MR, Spy is the better scripted and, in parts, better executed film. But the score may be the very reason why I gravitate towards MR as my favourite of these two.

    As for the thesis, I disagree to be honest. I don't think Spy is half an hour too long. In fact, the third act is the part I always look forward to. Let's just say it's this thing I enjoyed watching as a very young boy and never growing up entirely, I continue to like it to this day. I think the climactic battle aboard the Liparus is brutal and dramatic in places and the one aboard Atlantis is kind of tense. Actually, here's where I think Hamlish did very well. That ominous music he composed for Liparus' sinking and Atlantis' torpedoing gives these scenes some serious and quite frankly dark vibes.
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    edited May 2013 Posts: 1,407
    Agree with everything said above. Very well put Dimi
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 209</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>SF's Silva takes too much from Dark Knight's The Joker and Hannibal Lecter.</b></font>
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Hannibal Lector by Anthony Hopkins is a brilliant role, The Joker by Heath Ledger was somewhat Mweeh.

    SIlva was balanced at first and became batty somewhere after that, he never achieved the first height he got in SF.

    I would say he should have taken more from the Joker and Hannibal.

    disagree
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    Posts: 1,407
    Disagree. The only Lector inspiration was that Silva was behind glass. The Joker is clearly in there but Silva has a purpose where Joker just wants chaos. You'd never see Joker act the way Silva acts around M. The fact they're both insane and over the top is merely because of character choices. As for the fact of being captured on purpose, that is pure story choices by both films.
  • TuuliaTuulia
    Posts: 2,081
    ^^ Yes.

    There are barely any similarities with those characters - I disagree with the thesis.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Disagree with thesis 208 - TSWLM is one of my very favorites, just the way it is. It doesn't feel too long for me at all.

    Also disagree with new thesis 209 - I did not see or feel TDK or SOTL influence in Skyfall. Truly didn't. So many films now have the criminal/villain/psycho inside an all glass cage now, it just isn't new or made me think of Hannibal at all.

    Silva is a great villain and not really derivative of others. Bardem (and writers/director) deserve some real credit for not making this character an obvious copy of a past villain.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Disagree. I think the Silva/Joker comparisons are more plot based than character based, and Silva does quite separate things from the Joker; he actually has more ties to the Joker of the comics than Ledger's jaw dropping performance. Bardem managed to take an inspired character and largely do his own thing with him.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    Thesis #208 didn't last long, but disagree with thesis. Some James Bond endings do drag on for the most part and The Spy Who Loved Me was no different. You could of applied that to Moonraker or You Only Live Twice for example, so going against thesis on that one

    Thesis #209, I fail to recognize Batman in any shape or form so any comparisons there may have been, would of gone unnoticed. As for Lecter, can't go along with that either. Apart from the glass case as mentioned ? But Silva wasn't biting faces or helping Bond track down a serial killer. I don't think there's any real acknowledgment to either, as it's been mentioned in the above responses. Silva was just Silva. No real resemblance to any other movie series or characters. Another incorrect thesis

  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314

    DarthDimi wrote:
    pachazo wrote:
    It also could have been improved by an epic Barry score.

    I agree with @pachazo! Scores and their importance are often underestimated. Yet they are the colour, the flavour and the spice for any film. Barry's scores have been pivotal in many cases to make the difference between a great film and a superb film. A Barry score could have worked like magic for TSWLM. The difference, for me, is huge. I reckon that between TSWLM and MR, Spy is the better scripted and, in parts, better executed film. But the score may be the very reason why I gravitate towards MR as my favourite of these two.

    As for the thesis, I disagree to be honest. I don't think Spy is half an hour too long. In fact, the third act is the part I always look forward to. Let's just say it's this thing I enjoyed watching as a very young boy and never growing up entirely, I continue to like it to this day. I think the climactic battle aboard the Liparus is brutal and dramatic in places and the one aboard Atlantis is kind of tense. Actually, here's where I think Hamlish did very well. That ominous music he composed for Liparus' sinking and Atlantis' torpedoing gives these scenes some serious and quite frankly dark vibes.

    Very eloquently said. I couldn't have put it better myself. I didn't mean to slight Hamlish in any way. While he's no John Barry (who is?) I did like the score for the most part. It certainly captures that 70's sound and can be quite invigorating at times. However, something is certainly amiss during the climatic battle.

    As for thesis # 209 I also disagree. There are certainly influences of those characters present but nothing too blatantly plagiarized.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    Disagree with 209: He kinda reminded me of a cross between Zorin and Renard! 8-}
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,331
    Ther won't be a new villain who doesn't have anything in common with previous villains in films. I think Silva's been played extremely well by Bardem and doesn't borrow from anyone.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 210</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>James Bond is not an "action hero".</b></font>
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    Posts: 1,407
    This is from Roger Ebert correct? I agree with him on his view of QOS but overall James Bond IS an action hero. Maybe not in the same essence as a John McClain or somebody like that but Bond represents the ultimate fantasy which includes action. So this is a tough one. Bond is above the normal action hero which I think is what Ebert was trying to say but to just say that Bond isn't an action hero is false. So disagree overall but there are strong arguments on both sides
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    edited May 2013 Posts: 7,653
    Disagree-

    The James Bond movies are a series of actionmovies even if they are in a league of their own. But without the action and the great and spectacular stunts they would not have been so popular for 50 years.

    Anybody who thinks differently is a bit of a snob.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I will have to disagree, methinks. Yes, Bond is so much more than an action hero, but he is THE classic escapist character in a franchise known for its stunning real life stunts/action pieces, so I will have to say that at least in part Bond is a part of that action thread that weaves through film history. He has gone far beyond just an action man to the level of an action legend, but that aspect of him is still in the franchise's blood to this day. Bond is also a man of action more than anything, another aspect of him and the franchise that underscores this action man title. And since many come to Bond for action and simply a good time above all things, I will ultimately have to disagree with this thesis for that reason and more as stated above.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited May 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Disagree. You can go on and on about how deep of a character Bond is but at the end of the day, these are and always have been action movies. Stunts, chases, fights, etc, have always been a big part of the series.

    Even DN, which is really low key compared to what would come after it, had a car chase, the explosive secret base finale, etc.

    If Bond wasn't an action hero, the movies wouldn't have lasted 50 years.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,257
    bondbat007 wrote:
    This is from Roger Ebert correct?

    Indeed, sir, it is. :)
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,999
    If Bond had not become an action hero from Connery to Dalton, then he certainly became one when Brosnan took over as the first Bond of the videogame generation, machine gunning down nameless goons. And Bond continues to be an action hero tooday, albeit with overwrought drama bolted on.


    Thesis: 210: Disagree
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Disagree. Bond is obviously an action hero, for me. There is always plenty of ACTION and he is always in some way a HERO. I liked Ebert and agreed sometimes, but he is off here.
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