The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited May 2013 Posts: 8,253
    It makes no sense washing ashore that high on a shore. He'd have had help to get there.
    (talking of the video game)

    For me everything is perfectly clear in the film, so there's no need to compensate for anything
  • For me everything is perfectly clear in the film, so there's no need to compensate for anything

    Agreed. He's shot, falls from a height into water and survives. We catch up with him three months later. I don't really feel there's any need for further explanation.
  • Posts: 2,081
    It makes no sense washing ashore that high on a shore. He'd have had help to get there.
    (talking of the video game)

    For me everything is perfectly clear in the film, so there's no need to compensate for anything

    I think it's clear, too, and simple as well: he gets shot, falls into water, gets helped out of the water, spends 3 months recovering. We don't get to see that last part, but we hardly need to; it wouldn't have been exciting to watch, nor was it essential for the story. When we see him again after the recuperation period he's still in some considerable pain and is still bearing both the physical and the psychological scars - those are important in the story and are made obvious.

  • Posts: 1,052
    Didn't think the opening titles were that great but that's not the point, there was no need for further explanation!
  • Posts: 7,653
    Didn't think the opening titles were that great but that's not the point, there was no need for further explanation!

    Amazing how this 007 seems to lifted over any sort of critism, Mendes did deliver a pisspoor job with this movie. Now having seen it again it feels more than overrated.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    SaintMark wrote:
    Didn't think the opening titles were that great but that's not the point, there was no need for further explanation!

    Amazing how this 007 seems to lifted over any sort of critism, Mendes did deliver a pisspoor job with this movie. Now having seen it again it feels more than overrated.

    He did such a poor job it ended as one of the alltime highest grossing films in history, making more then a billion dollars. Admittadly, the dollar isn't what it used to be, but still. It isn't the Rupiah either. In fact in my home town it was sold out for the first three weeks. But obviously all those people just went to a badly made, shabby movie.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,837
    SaintMark wrote:
    Amazing how this 007 seems to lifted over any sort of critism

    It's the latest film, it's a good one and it's been very successful. Give it time and it'll become more criticised. Personally I liked it but I can find plenty of flaws with it.

    Maybe when Bond 24 comes out that'll be immune to criticism (although personally I can see that getting a negative reaction from fans who will treat it like the worst film ever if it's not as good).
    He did such a poor job it ended as one of the alltime highest grossing films in history

    That means nothing. Avatar is the highest grossing film ever but I think despite looking pretty that was pretty crap, especially compared to Aliens and the first two Terminators.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    He did such a poor job it ended as one of the alltime highest grossing films in history

    That means nothing. Avatar is the highest grossing film ever but I think despite looking pretty that was pretty crap, especially compared to Aliens and the first two Terminators.
    true and not true. Avatar was using cutting edge technology for the first time. I imagine the first films in colour, or the first ones with sound, will have attrackted more people then other films dispite their (lack of) quality. Bondfilms will always attrack a certain amount of people, but this was way off the scale and SF was certainly not special in some other kind of way.

  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited May 2013 Posts: 4,515
    Disagree ??. Because of outside information of the movie we know Bond whas with Greece girl, the movie don't give any information who she is and where it he be. The Maintitle have nothing to with this. Atleast there is one good thing about it, it proofs again M faild. But i also think it failer of the movie, in specialy if you know that atleast there try with the guy who talk about Skyfall, from the other side there also remove some of the training scene's whyle we saw them in trailer. It is one of those signal there mabey afraid for another Die Another Day.

    With CR there did same, but atleast there is delete scene. There remove that delete scene i think because there whant stick a litle bit longer with let us believe Mathis is the trater and save some time. Both Skyfall and CR are have a long screentime. But i must admit, how much i doubt Casino Royale it do more with his time.
  • Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote:
    Didn't think the opening titles were that great but that's not the point, there was no need for further explanation!

    Amazing how this 007 seems to lifted over any sort of critism, Mendes did deliver a pisspoor job with this movie. Now having seen it again it feels more than overrated.

    He did such a poor job it ended as one of the alltime highest grossing films in history, making more then a billion dollars. Admittadly, the dollar isn't what it used to be, but still. It isn't the Rupiah either. In fact in my home town it was sold out for the first three weeks. But obviously all those people just went to a badly made, shabby movie.

    Do not play the money card, that would put it on par with the Transformer movies and or the Pirates of the Caribean movies.

    I still think that SF was a hype as well due to the brilliant marketing of 007 at the Olympics. There has rarely been such a brilliant piece of advertisement.......

    Mendes made some grave errors one of them was not reflecting on 007's absence for some months and how they did not know where one of their best agents was or has been. A mortally wounded agent seems to be able to stay of the radar from law enforcement agencies or intelligence agencies. Which in these days is beyond mission impossible makes the lack of explanation sheer laziness or no clue how to come with an idea. Which was shown as well in other aspects of the movie as well.
    This so called realistic version does add up quite a few improbabilities.

  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I personally wouldn't call them stylish titles, and if i'm not mistaken, isn't the same image of Craig's eyes used twice? SF fans will have to forgive me, I have only watch the film twice. But no, I don't think they compensate, at all.

    Thesis 212: Disagree.
  • Posts: 2,081
    What is this "lifted over criticism" and "immune to criticism" crap, and what has it got to do with the thesis 212? Any self-respecting person with brains should make up their own mind about any film/book/record etc., instead of bowing to opinions (positive or negative) of others. People have different tastes and opinions, simple as that.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Tuulia wrote:
    What is this "lifted over criticism" and "immune to criticism" crap, and what has it got to do with the thesis 212? Any self-respecting person with brains should make up their own mind about any film/book/record etc., instead of bowing to opinions (positive or negative) of others. People have different tastes and opinions, simple as that.

    In that case you should allow other people saying that Mendes opening is spectacular and then turns into total bollocks imho. While previous Bonds dabble in some improbablities this one takes the cake and nowhere we get an explanation at all.

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited May 2013 Posts: 12,480
    I am agreeing - but 0Brady and Tuulia, I think you mean you are agreeing, not disagreeing.

    See, Tuulia, even native English speakers can have doubts about a sentence when it is worded a certain way ...

    To clarify for me: the opening before the titles gave enough info (hand helping him out), enough said, no further explanation needed. It is a Bond film and doesn't need further explanation.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 2,081
    SaintMark wrote:
    Tuulia wrote:
    What is this "lifted over criticism" and "immune to criticism" crap, and what has it got to do with the thesis 212? Any self-respecting person with brains should make up their own mind about any film/book/record etc., instead of bowing to opinions (positive or negative) of others. People have different tastes and opinions, simple as that.

    In that case you should allow other people saying that Mendes opening is spectacular and then turns into total bollocks imho. While previous Bonds dabble in some improbablities this one takes the cake and nowhere we get an explanation at all.

    Of course I allow you to have your opinions, I didn't say I didn't. I just don't see how not seeing a problem where you'd see one means the film is above criticism - no work of art is, and Skyfall is criticized a lot, as well. I have no problem with people disliking what I like, or liking what I dislike.

    I happen to completely disagree with you, I got all the explanation I needed. If you needed further explanation, I'm fine with that. Anyway, when @identigraph said no further explanation was needed (not a view denying in any way your right to criticize the movie) your comment on that was that it's "amazing how this 007 seems to lifted over any sort of criticism" - in other words people should just agree with you?
    I am agreeing - but 0Brady and Tuulia, I think you mean you are agreeing, not disagreeing.

    See, Tuulia, even native English speakers can have doubts about a sentence when it is worded a certain way ...

    To clarify for me: the opening before the titles gave enough info (hand helping him out), enough said, no further explanation needed. It is a Bond film and doesn't need further explanation.

    I decided the thesis was not clearly worded, and so I can't say "agree" or "disagree". :P But I agree with how you see that bit in the movie, and if that's what the thesis was stating, then yes, I'd have to say I agree with the thesis. :)

  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    SaintMark wrote:
    While previous Bonds dabble in some improbablities this one takes the cake and nowhere we get an explanation at all.
    I really don't understand this argument. Is it impossible to survive that fall after getting shot by a high powered rifle? Most likely. But takes the cake? What about the space laser battle at the end of Moonraker? What about Bond riding a motorcycle off a cliff and catching a falling plane in GoldenEye? Don't even get me started with Die Another Day. Invisible car? Fighting in Iron Man suits in a plane that is on fire, falling out of control and crumbling apart? These are just some of the most extreme examples.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited May 2013 Posts: 28,694
    SaintMark wrote:
    While previous Bonds dabble in some improbablities this one takes the cake and nowhere we get an explanation at all.

    :))

    That is one of the blindest statements I have ever read in my life! You have seen the Moore films, right? Because I get the feeling you haven't if you think like this. =))
  • Posts: 4,762
    I would say so, yes, because it is already one of the more lengthy Bond films, ranking up there in terms of runtime with OHMSS and CR, so having to explain Bond's survival would have just taken up more time that, quite frankly, needed to be saved for other more important plot points. I was completely fine with it, because honestly, we all knew Bond would survive anyways. The means were not as important so long as he got back in action!
  • Posts: 1,817
    I don't believe that the title sequence (except in the case of DAD) is part of the story (the only way it could be is if Bond has taken peyote and imagines himself flying around girls and colors...)
    But I don't really need an explanation of how he survives. The same applies with YOLT. He's shot, we can see him bleeding, the police declares him death and then he applies he's favorite hobby.
    Therefore I disagree since I don't need any compensation.
  • Posts: 7,653
    0013 wrote:
    I don't believe that the title sequence (except in the case of DAD) is part of the story (the only way it could be is if Bond has taken peyote and imagines himself flying around girls and colors...)
    But I don't really need an explanation of how he survives. The same applies with YOLT. He's shot, we can see him bleeding, the police declares him death and then he applies he's favorite hobby.
    Therefore I disagree since I don't need any compensation.

    In YOLT he did not get killed, they made it look like he was killed in order to get him undercover which is something totally different from 007 getting shot twice, falling of a bridge and having him surfacing without little damage, no explanation at all and then walking into the house of the head of the MI6 a few days after an attempt at her life. There are no guards at all and she does not even seem to be curious what her lost 00 has been up to or where he has been. It makes the book TMWTGG look bloody genius with it version of Bond missing in action.

    It makes me wonder why Mendes did not chose to borrow that, he did the opposite made a weaker storyline as Fleming came up with. The how 007 fell and how he rose up from the ashes is done sloppy and poor storywise. The movie feels more like some nice actionpieces and a poem of Tennyson and some symbolism should make up for a poor story. ANd While Fleming might not be a literary greatness all of his stories are better thought out and have a better storyline.

    Bond falling severely wounded and ignoring that all together showed immediately how poor the movie was going to be. And Roger Moores 007 might have been more out there but his movies where much more coherent as this last attempt.

    It seems to me that EON is still not sure how to compete with the 3 Bourne movies that were tightly written and tightly filmed. Even MI4 GP had a more coherent storyline and growthcurve for its leading character.

    For me it is frustrating how good an actor they have with DC and how poor they serve him with his movies. Having seen SF twice on dvd I can only add that the movie goes of the rails after 007 takes a dive and how a director as good as Mendes mucks it up, he must have thought if I ignore it the fans will make the lack in logic up for them,selves no harm done. :-S

    SF is a better movie than QoB, not that difficult, but it has too many flaws for me to really enjoy it. As a James Bond fan I feel shortchanged...........again.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited May 2013 Posts: 8,253
    sorry for the double post, got some technical difficulties
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    SaintMark wrote:
    0013 wrote:
    I don't believe that the title sequence (except in the case of DAD) is part of the story (the only way it could be is if Bond has taken peyote and imagines himself flying around girls and colors...)
    But I don't really need an explanation of how he survives. The same applies with YOLT. He's shot, we can see him bleeding, the police declares him death and then he applies he's favorite hobby.
    Therefore I disagree since I don't need any compensation.

    In YOLT he did not get killed, they made it look like he was killed in order to get him undercover which is something totally different from 007 getting shot twice, falling of a bridge and having him surfacing without little damage, no explanation at all and then walking into the house of the head of the MI6 a few days after an attempt at her life. There are no guards at all and she does not even seem to be curious what her lost 00 has been up to or where he has been. It makes the book TMWTGG look bloody genius with it version of Bond missing in action.

    It makes me wonder why Mendes did not chose to borrow that, he did the opposite made a weaker storyline as Fleming came up with. The how 007 fell and how he rose up from the ashes is done sloppy and poor storywise. The movie feels more like some nice actionpieces and a poem of Tennyson and some symbolism should make up for a poor story. ANd While Fleming might not be a literary greatness all of his stories are better thought out and have a better storyline.

    Bond falling severely wounded and ignoring that all together showed immediately how poor the movie was going to be. And Roger Moores 007 might have been more out there but his movies where much more coherent as this last attempt.

    It seems to me that EON is still not sure how to compete with the 3 Bourne movies that were tightly written and tightly filmed. Even MI4 GP had a more coherent storyline and growthcurve for its leading character.

    For me it is frustrating how good an actor they have with DC and how poor they serve him with his movies. Having seen SF twice on dvd I can only add that the movie goes of the rails after 007 takes a dive and how a director as good as Mendes mucks it up, he must have thought if I ignore it the fans will make the lack in logic up for them,selves no harm done. :-S

    SF is a better movie than QoB, not that difficult, but it has too many flaws for me to really enjoy it. As a James Bond fan I feel shortchanged...........again.

    A guy who kidnapped children in a kindergarten in Switserland got three buollits in his head and he survived. A Dutch pilot in WWII got out of his plane and chuted to safety whilst riddled with 17 bullitholes in his body. People survive the oddest things. Parachutists whose chute failed (not opening at all) walked, well, were carried away with only broken bones. In that light Bond's survival isn't strange.

    You mention Bourne yourself. Isn't he an agent MIA presumed dead, only found when he's travelling about? I take it a professional agent knows how to stay under the radar. The days of DAF are gone ;-) ('Is that who he is?')
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 213</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.</b></font>
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 213</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.</b></font>


    Well, that ought to be natural, as even Brown and Lee had little in common. TBH Brown was never really M for me. Lee is the M we know from the books, Fiennes'will be completely different I think. More like Fox's M ;-)
    (so YES)
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Agreed. Mallory has already shown us how different he is from all the previous M's. He reminds me a lot of Robert Brown's M in terms of looks, but I can tell Fiennes is going to bring something new to M. I can tell he likes and trusts Bond, but he isn't going to baby him like Judi's M did.
  • Posts: 7,653
    [
    A guy who kidnapped children in a kindergarten in Switserland got three buollits in his head and he survived. A Dutch pilot in WWII got out of his plane and chuted to safety whilst riddled with 17 bullitholes in his body. People survive the oddest things. Parachutists whose chute failed (not opening at all) walked, well, were carried away with only broken bones. In that light Bond's survival isn't strange.

    True people survive the oddest things

    You mention Bourne yourself. Isn't he an agent MIA presumed dead, only found when he's travelling about? I take it a professional agent knows how to stay under the radar. The days of DAF are gone ;-) ('Is that who he is?')

    Bourne 's story of recovery was explained in the book and the movie, the CIA still wanted him death because they did not trust him.

    Bond pops just back on the radar, no explanation whatsoever........ MI6 does trust him why??? EVen in TMWTGG M does not trust her most trusted agent even if he did suspect the trauma inflicted on 007. SF was not interested in a bit of reality or even using something from TMWTGG which would have been well chosen.

    THESIS 213

    Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.


    I will look forward to his interpretation, at this point I can only guess. I will see it when the next 007 movie comes along.


  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited May 2013 Posts: 4,515
    Re: Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.

    Yes, but Eon should make some people crazy and let him say:

    Malory: If we going to this together Bond, you should learn to trust me.

    Bond's comment: Done.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Good one, @M_Balje. :)>-
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 388
    THESIS 213: Disgree.

    With this caveat: Lee and Brown (Messervy and Hargreaves, as I like to think of them) give very distinct interpretations.

    I would like to see Mallory's M more in the role of Messervy's M. He trusts Bond but makes no truck about the fact that he is his superior and expects orders to be followed. He trusts Bond's judgement but doesn't mind turning a blind eye to Bond's independent judgements against political will (going after Drax against the Minister's wishes in MR, tacitly approving the Skyfall Lodge gambit.)

    Would love to see Mallory and Bond enjoying an "interesting experience" together in Tokyo!

    And, more seriously, would really enjoy M getting Bond involved in a personal matter like the Havelocks' murder in FYEO (short story) or the Blades sequence in MR (novel)
  • DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 213</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.</b></font>

    Disagree. He shouldn't be entirely different. He still has to be M, of course, and it would hard to be M without some of both interpretations, especially Bernard Lee's.
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