The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    SaintMark wrote:

    Bourne 's story of recovery was explained in the book and the movie, the CIA still wanted him death because they did not trust him.

    Bond pops just back on the radar, no explanation whatsoever........ MI6 does trust him why??? EVen in TMWTGG M does not trust her most trusted agent even if he did suspect the trauma inflicted on 007. SF was not interested in a bit of reality or even using something from TMWTGG which would have been well chosen.

    THESIS 213

    Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.


    I will look forward to his interpretation, at this point I can only guess. I will see it when the next 007 movie comes along.


    Bourne was a killing machine, not expected to think. He had failed his mission and thus became a liability. Part of the Bourne story is the unreasonableness of th CIA.

    Now obviously Bond isn't a trained killing machine but an agent supposed to judge by himself (see CR for that). In TMWTGG (novel) Bond comes up with a very strange story about how lovely the Russians are. Wouldn't you mistrust one of your best friends returning from beeing presumed dead only to say things that are completely contradictory to the things he/she used to say? You do start to wonder what happened, right? Bond no doubt would've been debriefed after returning from Turkey, but would that add to the story? The film is long enough as it is.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 214</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>LALD could have benefited from a more action driven climax.</b></font>
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 213</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiennes' M should be played entirely different from both Lee's and Brown's M.</b></font>

    Agree for this! It is the same principle with Q, Moneypenny, and ofcourse 007 himself!
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 214</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>LALD could have benefited from a more action driven climax.</b></font>

    Disagree. Love the film as it is as it was my first!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Agree. And definitely change the blow up death of Kanaga.
    Overall, I think it is a good movie, though.
  • Posts: 4,762
    I agree! One large improvement could have been to extend the fight between 007 and Baron Samedi. I believe everyone here can agree that it is a pitiful fight, lasting not more than 3 seconds and lacking in any excitement whatsoever. For the "Man Who Cannot Die", he sure did fall into that snake coffin rather quickly! Also, I'd have an island shoot-out, in the style of the '60s Bond movies, where the big army comes in to give Bond a hand in taking on the enemy. That would have been stupendous! And as @4EverBonded already mentioned, changing Kananga's blow-up death would have improved the climax a great deal!
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Disagree. I like the fact that the whole film was done on a smaller scale than some of it's predecessors. It works for this movie.
  • Posts: 5,634
    It's a good enough ending and climax. Apart from the much discussed Kananga nonsense, the end fights on the Island and train are pretty decent and there's lots of fun to be had. Thesis is wrong on this it would seem
  • Posts: 1,310
    I've always held Kanaga's death as a negative aspect, but the fight on the train with Tee Hee is actually quite good.

    I suppose I therefore must abstain.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I agree as well, and valid points were already made. The inflation of Kananga and the fight with the baron were almost to the film's detriment. Because when you oscillate between poor ideas and good ideas that aren't properly fullfilled, you lose points. LALD, in many ways, had some great stuff going for it and could have been properly polished if in more capable hands.

    But whatever it lacks, it make up for it via the astonishingly beautiful Solitaire...

    3407090-942453-in-love-heart.jpg
  • Posts: 4,762
    SJK91 wrote:
    I've always held Kanaga's death as a negative aspect, but the fight on the train with Tee Hee is actually quite good.

    I suppose I therefore must abstain.

    Yeah, the fight on the train at the end saves the movie from having a really disappointing climax, in terms of action and intensity.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 388
    Disagree. The climax is more involving than the more overblown action scenes in TB, DAF, TSWLM, MR, OP, TND, TWINE and DAD. It doesn't overstay its welcome and retains its focus on Bond and the villain.

    Kananga's death scene is ludicrous but I can forgive it, at least partly, by writing it off as a victim of the available FX technology at the time.

    The biggest disappointment for me is the deus ex machina of the previously unheard of buzz-saw on Bond's rolex - a real "sonic screwdriver" moment (a shame - particularly as the uselessness of the magnet on the Alligator island is the best gadget gag in any Bond film and used to great effect. Bond has to rely on his wits rather than Q Branch)

    The train fight is good and the final shot of Baron Samedi laughing at the audience is awesome. One of the best endings to any Bond film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 215</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Connery was a better Bond when directed by Young, whereas Moore was a better Bond when not directed at all.</b></font>
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,837
    I think I'll agree with this.

    Young helped Connery invent cinematic Bond and although Young's films aren't my favourite Connery flicks I think it's hard to argue that he wasn't at his best in them.

    I think Moore was at his best when he was completely at ease. When he got to have fun with it and could play Bond like himself. When they tried to force moments of anger and darkness out of him I didn't think he was as good.
  • Disagree (partly)

    I think Connery's best performance is GF. But great point (nicely phrased) about Moore.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Young helped Connery invent cinematic Bond
    I think Connery's best performance is GF.

    I agree with both of these statements. However, since we never would have got to GF without the first two movies I will agree with the first part of the thesis.
    As far as the second part goes I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Is this a compliment or a criticism of Moore? I agree that sometimes he was at his best by just doing his own thing but he didn't want to kick the car off the cliff in FYEO. After being talked into it he handled it very well and Glen gave us one of the most powerful scenes in the Moore era. I'm sure there are other instances where the director helped Moore to give a better performance so I have to disagree with the second part.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 215</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Connery was a better Bond when directed by Young, whereas Moore was a better Bond when not directed at all.</b></font>

    Agreed with the thesis.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 215</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Connery was a better Bond when directed by Young, whereas Moore was a better Bond when not directed at all.</b></font>

    Agreed after all they set the benchmark for the series.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I'll agree with both of these statements.

    Connery is almost perfect in DN and FRWL where it was Terence who moulded him. With GF he started playing himself and once the genie was out of the bottle there was no going back for TB even with Young returning.

    Rog in LALD and TMWTGG does seem a bit stilted and uncomfortable and although most people (and the man himself) think he nailed it in TSWLM I find him to be at his effortless best in MR and OP. With FYEO there was a conscious 'back to basics' approach from everyone and Rog was presumably directed to rein it in a bit which, although still gave us a very solid performance, it did take away from the Rog-ness of it all.

    You dont really sit down with a Rog Bond to watch a gritty slice of Fleming - for that you go to DN, FRWL, OHMSS, Dalton or Craig. With a Rog film you want to be entertained and hes at his most entertaining when hes just effortlessly being Rog and for me that comes across best in MR and OP.

    Of course you could always look at it another way and say 'Bond is best when directed by Terence Young'.
    Certainly Hamilton's efforts (although he did cement the series longevity with the GF blueprint so we have to cut him a bit of slack) get more mediocre each time and take us down un-Flemingian paths such as elephants winning slot machines, JW Pepper and stunt ruining sound effects. But despite this light approach hes unable to coax the classic Rog performances from his leading man that Gilbert and Glen were able to. I just get the impression with Hamilton that GF aside he never really put that much effort in. Everyone knew the films would make money so why bother. Its only when TMWTGG didnt that Cubby was prompted to have a rethink.
  • Posts: 12,526
    i agree with thesis 215 i think?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 216</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Glen was more a director of story and action than of actors.</b></font>
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 216</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Glen was more a director of story and action than of actors.</b></font>

    I would say he was pretty workmanlike across the board. He had a lot of very good actors (Glover, Bouquet, Jourdan, Berkoff, Walken, Krabbe) and to a greater or lesser extent they all give fine performances but you have to wonder what else a director like Mendes might have got out of them.

    However when I think of the 80s I think of the high water mark for action in the series. 2CV chase, ski chase, Acrostar, train fight, hanging on the outside of the plane, taxi chase, Golden Gate fight, TLD PTS, cargo net fight, waterskiing, tanker chase - inventive sequences packed with phenomenal stunt work so I think the thesis probably stands.
  • MrcogginsMrcoggins Following in the footsteps of Quentin Quigley.
    Posts: 3,144
    Some might say he would be best left in charge of the 2nd unit but I don't think he does that bad
    a job So I don't agree.
  • edited May 2013 Posts: 12,837
    Based on what I've read I'll have to agree.

    I remember an interview with Carey Lowell talking about how if she had any questions about her character, like her motivation, etc, then she had to go to Dalton because Glen was too busy planning an explosion.

    He is still my favourite Bond director though because he consistently delivered (excluding AVTAK) films ranging from good to brilliant for 8 years non stop, including my favourites.

    Shame they can't get a director with that kind of dedication and work rate nowadays.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I will also agree. He did a great job as the second unit director on OHMSS, TSWLM and MR and you can definitely feel that influence when he got to sit in the big boy chair for FYEO through LTK.

    It's not a horrible thing though. He got enough out of his actors to keep the story moving.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 216</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Glen was more a director of story and action than of actors.</b></font>

    From what I have seen I would agree too with thesis 216.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited May 2013 Posts: 13,978
    Didn't Dalton say something along the lines of the actors were left to themselves, while Glen concentrated on the action?

    Personally, I wouldn't swap Glen for Mendes. Mendes might be a fine director, but a but he's too artsy for Bond. That said, I would have been all for another director for Dalton's 3rd Bond, had it happened.

    Thesis 216: Agree
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I am not sure about this thesis. I don't know much about Glen's style at all, and how his sets were run, so I can't really have an opinion at this stage. But I must say this: if Glen left the actors to their own devices, TLD and LTK are even more special because the performances from a massive majority of both casts are great.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I'm not 100% sure, but I am agreeing. But also, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
  • saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
    Posts: 987
    I think John Glens skill lay in that he was a good all rounder, but without excelling in any area, his action scenes were generally good without ever being outstanding and he knew how to fill the screen with the rich, travelogue detail that was a hallmark of the Bond series. But was he a good director of actors? Well I think you only have to look at the change in style and tone of Roger Moore's performance in FYEO to realise that Glen wasn't letting him just coast through it in his usual manner.
    As for the alleged comments raised from Dalton and Lowell, if as a director untested in any environment other than the Bond films and action film second unit work, you had an actor so talented, focussed and passionate about his craft as Dalton, wouldn't you just step back and let him use his experience to guide and motivate the other actors.
    Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say Glen was in anyway an actors director, but I think he was no more or less competent than in the story and action departments.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 217</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The gun barrel shot makes more sense where it's positioned in CR than where it's positioned in QOS and SF.</b></font>
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