The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,310
    Gotta disagree here...the countdowns in OP and TLD were great. AVTAK didn't really have much going for it in the first place, but I never found the countdown as 'lazy'.
  • Posts: 12,526
    i never even realised that was the case! Looking at it though i think all three were well done in their own way. If you agree with the thesis then you could say that all nuclear threats in the Bond films are lazy too?!
  • I never even noticed!
  • Posts: 105
    I never even noticed!

    Can't say I did either. Definitely the change in actors may have helped break this up a bit - and i'm not sure if I count the AVATK one in the same form as OP and TLD - just doesn't seem the same to me for some reason.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 018</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Three countdown climaxes in three consecutive films (OP, AVTAK, TLD) was lazy.</b></font>

    OP and TLD are in my top 8 while AVTAK is in my bottom 3 so I would say No, Yes, No.
    AVTAK was lazy in general but OP and TLD kept the tension building. Of course, John Glen had better scripts to direct in those 2 films also.

  • DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 018</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Three countdown climaxes in three consecutive films (OP, AVTAK, TLD) was lazy.</b></font>

    There was genuine tension in the air as Moore dived around the Circus Tent dressed for the part as he tried to stop the detonation in time but even that was only for the few seconds when he was actually doing the job and of course everyone would of been (painfully) aware that of course Moore would stop the explosion ahead of time, live to tell and go on to reappear as 007 once again. A View To A Kill went on for a longer duration in terms of countdown but I found it all rather dull, maybe if Dalton had been involved instead and Grace Jones had been left out for someone else I would of felt different, but this countdown was a bit of a non event. Daltons Daylights for me is better remembered for his fight on the 'plane with Necros than the bomb counting down, but as Dalton frantically searched for the right package after to switch off Bomb it did generate some suspense albeit for a few seconds, same as with Octopussy I suppose

    I was wondering just now why they couldn't of got Europe to do a Bond piece about that time along with A-HA, it could of worked, i.e. Dalton in a panic looking for Bomb ticking away, 'It's the Final Countdown' etc playing over, I was half thinking then it may have worked
  • Posts: 1,407
    Octopussy feels fresh and exciting. AVTAK feels lazy and only uses a countdown because GF used one. TLD's countdown was exciting and that film is in my top 5
  • Disagree. I honestly never even noticed until reading this.
  • Posts: 105
    I was wondering just now why they couldn't of got Europe to do a Bond piece about that time along with A-HA, it could of worked, i.e. Dalton in a panic looking for Bomb ticking away, 'It's the Final Countdown' etc playing over, I was half thinking then it may have worked

    If Moore had still been playing Bond it could've happened! I mean we did have the beach boys only 2 years earlier.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 4,762
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 018</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Three countdown climaxes in three consecutive films (OP, AVTAK, TLD) was lazy.</b></font>

    Well, not exactly. They were all different in terms of effects. In OP, the US airbase was going to be destroyed, allowing Orlov's tanks to plow through and cause total Soviet domination in Europe. In AVTAK, Silicon Valley was going to be wiped out, millions of lives lost, and Zorin's business sky-rocketing. In TLD, only Bond, Necros, Kara's lives were in danger, and due to the fact that Bond's plans changed from destroying the plane to flying it! Also, the means of making it happen were different. Orlov was involved in an entire smuggling operation to get the bomb actually inside the base, while Zorin sectioned off a big mine and employed hundreds of workers to conceal the explosive. As for TLD, Bond was going to destroy the plane, but ended up having to fly it to escape, so it was actually his own fault for not defusing it.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited January 2012 Posts: 2,629
    I'm going to say no.

    In OP it added to already suspenseful scene. Bond scrambling across Germany to the US Base and then the circus to defuse the bomb at literally the last second.

    The same can be said for AVTAK. They had to manually get the bomb out of the hole(which couldn't be defused) and out of the mine. While May Day made a valiant sacrifice, she had time to jump.

    The bomb in TLD was used to help Shah's army out for helping Bond. Not as suspenseful as OP or AVTAK, but the countdown was used for the greater good in blowing up the bridge.

    Each countdown served a purpose in these three films.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Wow, interesting. No-one agrees with the thesis. Neither do I for that matter. It sure sparked interesting discussions. :-)

    Moving on soon.
  • Posts: 11,425
    It had never occured to me either. I guess Bond can get away with cliches!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 019</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Post 9/11, TLD feels a bit iffy at times.</b></font>
  • Posts: 11,189
    Err yes. Especially the "can't imagine why" remark by M at the end. REALLY think you'd get away with that now? :)) :))
  • Posts: 11,425
    Hilarious. You're totally right. It's not just post 9/11 though - that bunch were pretty unpleasant back then. I remember my dad saying when TLD came out that the mujahadeen were a bunch of evil scumbags even then. The producers made a serious mistake allying Bond with Art Malik's 'civilised' warlord. Infact it's a lesson for all Bond films - don't make things too political or grounded in current affairs. Bond is best off battling shadowy crime syndicates rather than nation states. Even during the cold war the Ruskies were usually portrayed as slightly grumpy but essentially well-meaning, while the real baddies were always trying to kick off WW3.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Perhaps but it doesn't spoil the film for me.
  • Posts: 1,497
    I'd agree with this. TLD is one of those films where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. But there are a few lackluster parts. For one, there isn't a clear face of villainy. None of the named villains seem to pose too big a threat, except for maybe Necros who only poses a physical hand-to-hand combat threat to Bond. The new Moneypenny also really is a miss. The overall production lacks a 'color' and style, which really is a sign of the film-making times in the 1980's. It looks a bit cheap as does Glen's Bond films compared to what came before...

    But as Samuel says, none of that ruins the film for me.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Well, it doesn't spoil the fun for me either. It's just that every time I unintentionally think about 9/11 when I watch the third act of TLD. Strange, isn't it?
  • Posts: 11,189
    It doesn't spoil the fun but I watched it a few weeks back and laughed/cringed a little at the end.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Charlie Wilson's War nicely tells the whole sorry story of how the US built up these lunatics into the menace they are today and - indirectly, of course - brought the whole catastrophe down upon themselves. Or, at least that's my interpretation.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    I've never had any problem with this.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited January 2012 Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 019</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Post 9/11, TLD feels a bit iffy at times.</b></font>

    I love TLD but there is some truth to this(at least in the final 1/3). I see it though as an historical piece. The Afghan resistance was the West's enemy's enemy at the time. I'm sure it's not too dissimilar from the experiences Cold War-era film viewers had who watched World War II propaganda movies extolling the Anglo-American ally of that war, i.e. the Soviets.

    Of course, if Dalton had stayed in the role until 2002, maybe they could've come up with an adventure where his Bond battles his former ally Kamran Shah.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Yeah, but Bond films generally avoided political 'reality' before this. It seemed odd at the time and even weirder now that Bond should be allied with a bunch of backwards, wife-beating, entrail pulling, Buddha-smashing lunatics.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Getafix wrote:
    Yeah, but Bond films generally avoided political 'reality' before this. It seemed odd at the time and even weirder now that Bond should be allied with a bunch of backwards, wife-beating, entrail pulling, Buddha-smashing lunatics.

    But in those days they fought the Russian army which made them very likable. And the US helped their training to fight against the Red menace. It somehow bit them in the behind.

    L-)
  • Posts: 1,497
    Sorry...I missed the "Post 9-11" part of the thesis.

    I'd actually say the opposite; TLD is enlightening in providing some historical context to the current state of affairs we are in now. It makes the film all the more intriguing watching it now.
  • Posts: 11,425
    SaintMark wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Yeah, but Bond films generally avoided political 'reality' before this. It seemed odd at the time and even weirder now that Bond should be allied with a bunch of backwards, wife-beating, entrail pulling, Buddha-smashing lunatics.

    But in those days they fought the Russian army which made them very likable. And the US helped their training to fight against the Red menace. It somehow bit them in the behind.

    L-)

    That all depends on how much you disliked the Russians... This thread is probably not the right place for this debate, but I think there's a good case to be put for saying that Afghanistan under Soviet occupation was a lot better than what replaced it (girls got an education for example and you didn't get your head chopped off for listening to pop music) and certianly better than the mess the country is in now.
  • Posts: 1,310
    I suppose when one sits down and thinks about it, the concept is a bit...well...uncomfortable....but I've never really had a problem with it.
  • Posts: 1,407
    I know in my mind that the film was made in 1987, so I really never have had a big problem. But it does come to mind while watching it sometimes
  • Posts: 12,526
    The thing is you could ask the same type of question on a number of things though? Should Bond have hit women? Should LALD have been made considering the written novel? This thesis?

    The movie at the time was reflecting certain aspects of the times back then. If you look back through history? The Brits are no saints! And i am a proud one!
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