The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
    Posts: 987
    pachazo wrote:
    saunders wrote:
    =Part of the problem lies in the that the vast majority of Bond audiences are not Fleming fans and will watch the films with certain expectations of plot structures and swift pacing commonly found in mainstream action cinema.

    So you're saying that just because mainstream audiences won't like it that it wouldn't be a good film? Not everyone has a short attention span and there have been plenty of well made independent films that have found the right audience. A movie doesn't have to be a billion dollar blockbuster to be good.

    Fair point in the context of this debate, but looking at the bigger picture how many well made independent films that have found the right audience have gone on to a fifty year franchise. Fleming wrote the Bond novels primarily to make a lot of money, Cubby and Harry made the films to make a lot of money, a movie doesn't have to make a billion dollars to be good but vast wealth was the only yardstick they all set themselves, so surely we should keep that spirit in mind when considering what constitutes a 'good' Bond.

  • pachazo wrote:

    YOLT - This is where you really disappointed me and the reason that I quoted you. This novel may have been unrealistic to have been faithfully adapted in the James Bond phenomenon of the 1960's but it is certainly not unfilmable. It is one of Fleming's most fascinating tales and certainly more interesting than most of what i see going on in popular cinema today.

    Don't get me wrong @pachazo, I like Fleming's YOLT very much but I just don't see how it could be faithfully adapted into a 90min+ feature film. Like the other films I quoted, there just isn't enough plot.

    The idea of Bond going to pieces, drinking too much etc. could be explored but it would take up about 5 mins I guess (we saw a somewhat similar scenario during the "retirement" sequence of SF), Bond then goes to Japan and most of the first half of the novel is an extended travelogue of the country with Dikko and Tiger acting as guides. Very interesting and works wonderfully in the novel but would be hard to get much screen-time out of it.

    We then get to the actual meat of the story - Bond's mission to assassinate Guntram Shatterhand and his discovery that he is in fact Ernst Stavro Blofeld. It's a very good sequence but would surely only take up 30 mins or so max.

    So there would be a lot of additional story, plot and material required hence why I don't think a "faithful" adaptation would be possible.

    I would still love to see Shatterhand as a villain, Dikko as a rough-and-ready ally, and a cliffhanger ending with an amnesiac Bond however.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314

    Don't get me wrong @pachazo, I like Fleming's YOLT very much but I just don't see how it could be faithfully adapted into a 90min+ feature film. Like the other films I quoted, there just isn't enough plot.

    The idea of Bond going to pieces, drinking too much etc. could be explored but it would take up about 5 mins I guess (we saw a somewhat similar scenario during the "retirement" sequence of SF), Bond then goes to Japan and most of the first half of the novel is an extended travelogue of the country with Dikko and Tiger acting as guides. Very interesting and works wonderfully in the novel but would be hard to get much screen-time out of it.

    We then get to the actual meat of the story - Bond's mission to assassinate Guntram Shatterhand and his discovery that he is in fact Ernst Stavro Blofeld. It's a very good sequence but would surely only take up 30 mins or so max.

    So there would be a lot of additional story, plot and material required hence why I don't think a "faithful" adaptation would be possible.

    I would still love to see Shatterhand as a villain, Dikko as a rough-and-ready ally, and a cliffhanger ending with an amnesiac Bond however.

    I don't really want to debate over what a faithful film adaptation technically is or isn't. I agree with you that a word by word, scene by scene recreation of the book isn't feasible. Some creative liberties would have to be taken. Many films have done this over the years (to a greater or lesser degree) simply because it such a different medium.

    You wouldn't necessarily have to create too many new details though as you could expand upon things that are already there. Perhaps begin the film with Bond's last mission that nearly gets him fired as an example. I believe that you could present all the material and add some nice creative touches within the spirit of the novel and still make a faithful adaptation. That's just my opinion and I'll leave it at that.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    Well MR in this day and age wouldn't make much sense, other then the adaptation called GE. I guess that 'faithful adaptation' bit is the hard part. I don't consider CR 06 a faithful adaptation, but a true faithful adaptation wouldn't really work, with the coloured bombs and the long, slow betrayal of Vesper at the end. So: agree.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited June 2013 Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 219</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Bond films display less travelogue ambitions now than they did in the 60s and 70s.</b></font>
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited June 2013 Posts: 4,515
    re: The Bond films display less travelogue ambitions now than they did in the 60s and 70s.

    Agree and whant at the 80's too. It is very weak to take Turkey again for Skyfall and i like to see we get a Bond movie in Egypt again. Also Bond should visit Belgium and America for real.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Agree.

    This is one of things I miss in the films of the most recent times, I admit it. The films of the past at large really let the locations breathe, and you really got to see different sensibilities and ways of life in the shots. I also learned a ton of stuff regarding geography and politics of respective eras in the films, something that still happens, but we now lack the feeling of knowing the location being filmed like we are really there with Bond as it felt in the past.
  • For reference's sake (courtesy of the I Expect You To Die blog, which has reviews of all the movies and you should really check out), the Empire Magazine Bond Travelogue! http://www.empireonline.com/features/james-bond-film-world-map/30.asp

    I'll make my decision after examining the map.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    nope. we're just far more used to it now.
  • Posts: 1,817
    Disagree. The thing is that now far places look less exotic. Remember the Scaramanga island? That was an unknown location in the seventies. Now it offers tours as Bond's island.
    The common place is to talk about globalization. But yes, it has connected far corners of the land by the mass media. It can't be easy for a director to shot Venice in an original fashion... So the Bond locations seem more mundane but still could be developed in an interesting way (e.g. Shanghai and Istambul in SF).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    DarthDimi wrote:
    THESIS 219
    The Bond films display less travelogue ambitions now than they did in the 60s and 70s.
    True for two reasons, first the noted globalization (you can see anywhere at any time on the net), and second, most films are not shot on location any more, they select a site to double for somewhere else & CGI in the details.
  • Posts: 7,653
    True, that is why it hurt so much if you see a MI4 Ghost Protocol using great exotic locations and actually applying them into the story. This used to be the great strenght of the 007 formula.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 219</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Bond films display less travelogue ambitions now than they did in the 60s and 70s.</b></font>

    Agree: The world is alot smaller and oddly more expensive to live in let alone make a big budget movie in too!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Agree. And I like the globetrotting of the older films.

    I think QOS had a good deal but didn't do much with some of them. I think I want some gorgeous or wildly interesting places visited, but it had better serve the story and not just be too quick to enjoy.

    Having said that, I am really happy Skyfall was a truly London/England/Scotland movie - it fit the story and was appropriate for the anniversay AND I just enjoyed it being centered there for a change. We still had the lush shots of Shanghai, too.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    Agree. And I like the globetrotting of the older films.

    I think QOS had a good deal but didn't do much with some of them. I think I want some gorgeous or wildly interesting places visited, but it had better serve the story and not just be too quick to enjoy.

    Having said that, I am really happy Skyfall was a truly London/England/Scotland movie - it fit the story and was appropriate for the anniversay AND I just enjoyed it being centered there for a change. We still had the lush shots of Shanghai, too.

    And Istanbul. Silva's Island. Macao.

    But perhaps, because of the way the films are shot, people forget what they see. Compare SF to TB and you'll see Bond travels far further in SF and to more places. Same with DN, FRWL, GF etc. etc.

    QoS saw Bond in Italy, Bolivia, Austria. Even London!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    But not enough lovingly filmed bits of Italy, Austria or London for me.
    Some of Italy,yes; I just would have liked more time in those places in QOS.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Haven't really given it much thought until now

    Suppose that's a fair observation, we don't get to see Bond as ubiquitous as say Moore, as Connery felt a bit restricted for locations, as was Dalton (especially License to Kill) and Brosnan came along and things picked up a bit, and we took in sights such as Russia, Cuba, China, Germany and Iceland for example. It's always frustrating when Bond feels restricted to one or two locations such as with You Only Live Twice or the aforementioned LTK for example. Going to agree with thesis this time out
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited June 2013 Posts: 28,694
    The Moore films are without a doubt the best in the franchise quality wise for locations and for actually feeling there with Bond. One of my favorite location moments in the series is Bond amongst the old Egyptian pillars/sites in TSWLM. Absolutely breathtaking shots.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    The Moore films are without a doubt the best in the franchise quality wise for locations and for actually feeling there with Bond. One of my favorite location moments in the series is Bond amongst the old Egyptian pillars/sites in TSWLM. Absolutely breathtaking shots.

    I also loved the John Barry homage music que when Bond and Anya are searching for Jaws. I give Hamlisch props for redoing a FRWL music que.
  • Posts: 1,817
    Murdock wrote:
    The Moore films are without a doubt the best in the franchise quality wise for locations and for actually feeling there with Bond. One of my favorite location moments in the series is Bond amongst the old Egyptian pillars/sites in TSWLM. Absolutely breathtaking shots.

    I also loved the John Barry homage music que when Bond and Anya are searching for Jaws. I give Hamlisch props for redoing a FRWL music que.

    In Luxor? Are you talking about the Bond theme played in slow fashion?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    0013 wrote:
    In Luxor? Are you talking about the Bond theme played in slow fashion?
    No in TSWLM when Bond and Anya are searching for Jaws in the temple A remade version of "Stalking" is playing until Jaws jumps in and attacks.

  • Posts: 1,817
    Murdock wrote:
    0013 wrote:
    In Luxor? Are you talking about the Bond theme played in slow fashion?
    No in TSWLM when Bond and Anya are searching for Jaws in the temple A remade version of "Stalking" is playing until Jaws jumps in and attacks.

    In that case I should give attention to the moment. I haven't noticed it.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    0013 wrote:
    Murdock wrote:
    0013 wrote:
    In Luxor? Are you talking about the Bond theme played in slow fashion?
    No in TSWLM when Bond and Anya are searching for Jaws in the temple A remade version of "Stalking" is playing until Jaws jumps in and attacks.

    In that case I should give attention to the moment. I haven't noticed it.

    Yep the music is beat per beat the same song, just rearranged. It was a nice little nod to John Barry who wasn't available in 77. :)
  • Posts: 1,817
    That could have been a perfect opportunity for an epic score from Barry and also from John Williams. Can't imagine how the final battle would've been like! Anyway, I'm getting out of the subject in this thread...
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    But not enough lovingly filmed bits of Italy, Austria or London for me.
    Some of Italy,yes; I just would have liked more time in those places in QOS.

    Perhaps, but a lot of Bolivia, and for me personally that's a lot more exotic then the three others as I've been there quite often. But that's the different perspective from this side of the pond I guess.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 220</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>In keeping with OHMSS, Bond should not have cried tears at the end of SF.</b></font>
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 220</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>In keeping with OHMSS, Bond should not have cried tears at the end of SF.</b></font>

    Disagree. M was a mother figure to Bond, through thick and thin they shared some sort of bond and since she died at his place of childhood trauma that brought back even more bad memories which made him even more upset. Emotions don't make one weak. it makes them stronger.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I thought Bond DID cry at the end of OHMSS? You can't see too well, but Bond definitely seems to be in tears.

    Anyway, DISAGREE. The moment at the end of Skyfall is one of the most powerful in the series, and acted so beautifully by both Dan and Judi. As @Murdock said, showing emotions don't make us weak, they allow us to release all our feelings instead of keeping them inside, and Bond is doing just that. He and M had a very special relationship, and she very much formed him into the competent agent he is through their time together. They are both stubborn and through that they created a great partnership built on trust, loyalty and duty, no matter the challenges they faced. For this and more, Bond becomes emotional, as anyone would in the situation. I know I cried like a baby...
  • Disagree. Fleming's Bond cries too.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited June 2013 Posts: 18,270
    Disagree - James Bond is an emotional human being like anyone else and there is much Fleming authority there, too.
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