The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited June 2013 Posts: 13,978
    Bond had every reason to cry in OHMSS, his wife had just been killed. With SF, I don't buy into the closeness of Bond and M, she was just his boss, and a micro mange boss at that. Heaven forbid that Bond should be left to his own devices on a mission. However...

    Thesis 220: Disagree.
  • Disagree, largely because I think he does cry at the end of OHMSS.

    Maybe I'm wrong, though:
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I'd also have to disagree. There is a balance between breaking new ground and staying faithful to your roots. In this case they are staying faithful to the character of the novels. If they never did anything different from the original movies it would become very stale and boring.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 220</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>In keeping with OHMSS, Bond should not have cried tears at the end of SF.</b></font>

    Disagree: I thought it was played out perfectly! It's a shame Lazenby's first take where he did the same was not left in too!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Craig's crying didn't bother me to be frank, though I would have been equally cool with having Bond not cry. Luckily Craig is a fabulous actor who can sell us on the crying part without overacting or without overcompensating any lack of expressiveness with ostentatious sobbing. The scene works for me - I never felt like it was an unbondian moment.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Craig's crying didn't bother me to be frank, though I would have been equally cool with having Bond not cry. Luckily Craig is a fabulous actor who can sell us on the crying part without overacting or without overcompensating any lack of expressiveness with ostentatious sobbing. The scene works for me - I never felt like it was an unbondian moment.

    I think Craig does scenes like this better then any of the other actors. But I guess with the loss of Vesper and M he's also the one that has had the gravest losses.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Craig's crying didn't bother me to be frank, though I would have been equally cool with having Bond not cry. Luckily Craig is a fabulous actor who can sell us on the crying part without overacting or without overcompensating any lack of expressiveness with ostentatious sobbing. The scene works for me - I never felt like it was an unbondian moment.

    I think Craig does scenes like this better then any of the other actors. But I guess with the loss of Vesper and M he's also the one that has had the gravest losses.

    Since George Lazenby at least.
  • Posts: 5,634
    I can't even remember Bond crying at the end of Skyfall, and I only saw it three times. Does crying really fit in with Craig's Bond though ?, he's been the toughest since Dalton, and maybe some wouldn't expect it, but Bond is as before, only human like everyone else, and hardly immune to emotion, so maybe it wasn't so bad, but just can't recall it from the last release right now. Sure Lazenby wept a little as been mentioned also ? I'm going to agree with thesis on this one. If it occured (and looks like I'm in the minority who missed it) then maybe it wasn't really needed this time
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I can't even remember Bond crying at the end of Skyfall, and I only saw it three times. Does crying really fit in with Craig's Bond though ?, he's been the toughest since Dalton, and maybe some wouldn't expect it, but Bond is as before, only human like everyone else, and hardly immune to emotion, so maybe it wasn't so bad, but just can't recall it from the last release right now. Sure Lazenby wept a little as been mentioned also ? I'm going to agree with thesis on this one. If it occured (and looks like I'm in the minority who missed it) then maybe it wasn't really needed this time

    How can you miss it? It shows Bond in a close up with tears going down his eyes.

    Also, just because Dan's Bond is tough doesn't mean he can't show his emotion. He has always been a deep and emotional Bond, so I don't see why it is such an unfitting action for him to cry. I don't know why people cause such a stir about the act in general. I enjoy times when tears are brought to my eyes because it makes me realize that there are still things that can make me feel in the world. There is something really magical about being so sucked into a film, book or song that it makes you feel pure emotion, and that keeps me going.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    What the ... ? Completely disagree.
    Surely this thesis was part of a bad dream you had, Dimi. ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 221</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Brosnan's final 3 Bond films had both some of the worst and some of the best Bond girls ever.</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited June 2013 Posts: 13,355
    I don't think so, in so many areas these three films really did the wrong thing and I suppose the silver lining is, at least it was over with in one go. It's just a real shame that was 75% of one actor's time.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2013 Posts: 12,480
    So: TND, TWINE, and DAD

    The strongest contender for best Bond girl of these 3 films is without doubt Michelle Yeoh. She was great! And plenty of folks like Rosamund Pike; I do, too, just not so strongly as others (oh, she was a villainness, too). I think lots of folks love Sophie Marceau's Elektra King (Bond girl/villainness). Are we counting her as a Bond girl? But that's it, in my opinion. I love TND, it's my favorite; a near tie with GE. So in those 3 films are there 3 of the BEST EVER Bond girls? Nope. Only one for me would be in that category: Michelle Yeoh.

    Worst Bond girls - oh yes, now there you have a good argument because poor Pierce was saddled with Terri, Denise, and Halle - definitely 3 of the worst Bond girls EVER ... especially I am saying that strongly for the last two, cutting Terri only a little slack.

    Overall argument, I have to disagree. Pierce didn't have both some of the best and some of the worst. Mostly worst. (Especially as we are not counting GE, which had the truly great Natalya played by Izabella Scorupco).

    Man, I wish he'd has a 5th film that was really good. His Bond deserved it. I enjoyed him in all of his films.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I'd have to disagree. I'm not really seeing anyone here that could be considered as one of the best. Perhaps Sophie Marceau as Elektra King if I'm feeling generous. Rosamund Pike as Miranda Frost was one of the best things in DAD but that's not saying much.

    The TND girls are nothing special. Teri Hatcher is a little bland as Paris Carver and quickly becomes forgotten. Michelle Yeoh's performance isn't bad but her Wai Lin character is written so generically that she comes off as a gimmick.

    Denise Richards would certainly have to be one of the worst but perhaps we could have tolerated her a little more if she hadn't been so terribly miscast. Halle Berry's Jinx is arguably the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise.

    So we certainly have the worst part covered but I'm afraid there's not enough good to outweigh the bad.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 221</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Brosnan's final 3 Bond films had both some of the worst and some of the best Bond girls ever.</b></font>

    Will have to disagree on this one. I think they are relatively on par with a number of girls dotted out through the series. And Electra King was certainly a piece of work!
  • Posts: 12,837
    Elektra is one of the best, Christmas is eye candy that you can just about stomach, Jinx was just crap and Wai Lin was a fun if generic Bond's equal type.

    Disagree.
  • edited June 2013 Posts: 3,494
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 221</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Brosnan's final 3 Bond films had both some of the worst and some of the best Bond girls ever.</b></font>

    I'd agree. Wai Lin was a strong female counterpart, Elektra smoking hot (it's Sophie after all and I could give a damn about the rest), and Rosamund Pike a solid double agent.

    Then, of course, there's Jinx, X-mas, and Paris bringing their movies down to even things out.

  • Posts: 5,634
    Some of the worst ever. For sure. Michelle Yeoh was maybe my favorite of all the Brosnan Bond girls. Never saw the beauty or attraction in Isabella Scorupco, or Rosamund Pike or even Sophie Marceau. Wai Lin was kind of cute, and not only that, but could handle herself also. Denise Richards - the least said, the better

    For the most part, Brosnan girls, were maybe a period to forget

    Thesis is incorrect as I thought most were lousy, and there were no truly great or attractive ones, but that's only from this perspective. Feel free to dispute

    Just noticed it says 'final three Brosnan Bonds' (why not Goldeneye ?), but been a long day and tiring now
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Sans Natalya and maybe Electra, I don't really care for any of the lead Bond girls, and the last three Brosnan films definitely had some of the worst in spades. Just Jinx alone is too much.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    pachazo wrote:
    I'd have to disagree. I'm not really seeing anyone here that could be considered as one of the best. Perhaps Sophie Marceau as Elektra King if I'm feeling generous. Rosamund Pike as Miranda Frost was one of the best things in DAD but that's not saying much.

    The TND girls are nothing special. Teri Hatcher is a little bland as Paris Carver and quickly becomes forgotten. Michelle Yeoh's performance isn't bad but her Wai Lin character is written so generically that she comes off as a gimmick.

    Denise Richards would certainly have to be one of the worst but perhaps we could have tolerated her a little more if she hadn't been so terribly miscast. Halle Berry's Jinx is arguably the worst thing to ever happen to the franchise.

    So we certainly have the worst part covered but I'm afraid there's not enough good to outweigh the bad.

    This is a pretty fiar assessment.

    Even if you factor in GE the excellent Natalya and Xenia dont compensate for the rest.

    TND - The Danish blonde harks back to the day when Rog would slip a cheeky one in during the PTS but after that its downhill. Teri Hatcher's acting is so poor it ruins wht on paper has potential to be an interesting character and Wai Lin is just another tedious, identikit 'Bonds equal' Bond girl which has always been a shit concept but one that EON just refuse to let die and although Yeoh is OK looking shes not really Bond girl material.

    Danish bird: 3/10 - Thats not a bad mark against her, more that such an insignificant character cant be allowed to skew the overall score by being given a 10. She gets the maximum available for one of Bond's quick 2 minute shags.
    Paris: 3/10 - Couldve been a 6 or 7 if well acted.
    Wai Lin: 5/10 - Yeoh is engaging in the role but I'm afraid the whole PC 'equal Bond girl' thing just pisses me right off. She is probably the best Bond equal girl though to give her her due.

    TWINE - The doctor another cheeky little nod to the Rog era. I dont need to retread old ground with Denise Richards as its well known how awful she is. Marceau elevates things and is certainly gorgeous but one of the best? She is a decent enough villain (better than Renard by a country mile) but not one of the best Bond girls, probaly best of the Brozza era after Natalya though.

    Doctor: 3/10 - Again does her job well as a quickie for Bond.
    Christmas: 2/10 - I think this character is pretty superfluous to be honest. You could cut her from the script without it affecting anything. If this had been a Craig film then I think she would have been binned so that we could focus on the Bond/Elektra relationship.
    Elektra: 8/10 - Very sexy and even though I dont buy the whole Bond falling for her thing an interesting character who gets a lot better once she turns bad.


    DAD - Peaceful Fountains gives us another homage to Rog where the hotel employees always seemed to blatantly fancy Bond (TSWLM, OP - even that gay bloke in Rio) - although given Bond hasnt had any in 14 months its a bit odd he doesnt shag her once he has kicked Mr Chang out. The Pikelet is uber fit and does her best with the dismal material and along with Brozzas assured performance one of the few things to come out of DAD with any shred of decency intact. I'm cant even bring myself to mention Berry and Madonna is way too long in the tooth to be called a girl.

    Peaceful Fountains of Desire: 3/10 - Does what it says on the tin.
    Miranda: 6/10 - I cant go higher than this for someone from DAD. Shes not Fiona Volpe but she does what she can as the ship sinks around her.
    J**x: minus infinity/10 - Is there a single redeeming feature about this character? OK she looks decent in a bikini. I'll change that mark to a slightly smaller infinity.

    Its right to state that these films had some of the worst Bond girls (including the worst of all time) but depsite brave efforts by Elektra and Miranda to raise the standard, neither of them could be rated as among the best so we have to conclude the thesis is incorrect.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I really love the input, folks!

    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 222</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>"The greatest success of [GoldenEye] was in modernising the [James Bond] series." (Jose Arroyo of Sight & Sound)</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    It's as modernised as making a film set in 1995. It did it well but also had a great story in my opinion.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Agreed. GoldenEye was a game changer. It had many themes that made James Bond successful. Beautiful ladies, Rough hands on villain, Epic locales and great Stunt work.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited June 2013 Posts: 4,423
    DarthDimi wrote:

    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 222</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>"The greatest success of [GoldenEye] was in modernising the [James Bond] series." (Jose Arroyo of Sight & Sound)</b></font>

    Agree

    Although it presents a arch-typical Bond movie, GoldenEye does so with a freshness, in part due to the six year gap, but also it was the first Bond movie since The Spy Who Loved Me to have the classic framework, of humour, girls, gadgets, high-tech villains lair etc, without having camp elements (Moonraker) and a dour leading man (The Living Daylights)*

    It also captures the nineties chic, post cold war situation almost perfectly, and the script also cleverly asks Bond to validate himself in the post cold war era, something he achieves with aplomb..


    * I'm a big fan of TD's Bond, btw, that was just the reaction to the public's enthusiasm of seeing Pierce in the role.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I really love the input, folks!

    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 222</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>"The greatest success of [GoldenEye] was in modernising the [James Bond] series." (Jose Arroyo of Sight & Sound)</b></font>

    Agree: One of the most obvious ways was that pretty much everyone was having a pop or mocking him. My personal favourite is where Valentin shoots between his legs at the club and say shaken but not stirred! :)) Brilliant!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I really love the input, folks!

    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 222</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>"The greatest success of [GoldenEye] was in modernising the [James Bond] series." (Jose Arroyo of Sight & Sound)</b></font>
    Yes, GE did that. In those days, after the collapse of the USSR, there was quite the talk of Bond losing his arena. But GE clearly showed there still was room for a 'super'spy, whilst retaining so many of the by then beloved assets of the frenchise. Still, more changes were made by making M female. GE adapted Bond for the new decade. It's a pity Brosnan's films after that tried to repeat the feat.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Agree.

    Most people (including me) thought that there would be no more Bond films. Then suddenly after a 6 year hiatus Goldeneye storms into cinemas with it's post cold war themes and female M mixed in with the typical Bond elements, proving that the series could adapt and survive still.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Agreed - GE brought Bond back in a fresh, fun, renewed way. It had a very good story, was well written and supremely well cast. A highly enjoyable film that revitalized the series. Took a huge leap having a female M - and with Judi, it really succeeded. This series has to change and adapt over the years or die out completely. It brought tons of new fans to James Bond and kept his story moving forward, so that we may still enjoy it. GE had to be totally different from LTK. It came across as a nod to older Bond films yet still fresh, fun, and exciting. It did modernize the films, if that is the right word.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I suppose I would have to agree with this as well. I really think that the greatest success of GoldenEye was that is was a success. Coming off the six year hiatus when some people proclaimed that Bond was dead this movie proved that Bond was indeed alive and well. The previous three movies (AVTAK, TLD and LTK) all had disappointing box office sales. As far as Bond movies go of course. So this was the first time in quite a while that the general public showed excitement over a Bond film. It obviously revitalized the franchise and the I believe the modern themes and special effects were a big part of that.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    And, whether you liked his entire tenure or not, you have to give credit to Pierce for his performance in Goldeneye. It was critically important, for the series to survive, that this Bond be accepted and well like by the public. That he was. For some, including me, he was a very good Bond indeed. Others think "meh ... " -but I do think he deserves credit, too, for making Goldeneye a success, including the thesis under discussion.
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