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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I would have expected people to easily agree with this thesis. ;-)

    - Scaramanga sleeps with Andrea before a kill and the film actually states a reason for that.
    - The belly dancer's about to give it all up to Moore in under two minutes since meeting him. And she's lost her charm...
    - There's the lyrics of the theme song which leave little room for doubt.
    - The Bottom's Up bar shows topless girls serving drinks. That's a first in a Bond film. And the entire scene has some sleazy vibes.
    - The third nipple.
    - Chew Me
    - Andrea showering and the camera being ever so careful not to show any flesh but almost.
    - And then Moore beats her while she has the bathrobe on, which sort of boosts the sexual tension.
    - Bond and Andrea perform the nasty while Goodnight is in the closet and Bond mentions how her turn will come.

    I honestly can't think of any other film in Moore's Bond era to stack up so many sexual playfulnesses, some subtle, many not so much.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited July 2013 Posts: 14,568
    Yep, agree with thesis based on the above list. Add in a bit of golden gun fellatio and voilà!
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited July 2013 Posts: 12,480
    So we are doing each Bond's era, which is the most sexually explicit, eh?
    Let me see ... offhand I disagree.
    I am voting for FYEO as more sexually laden than TMWTGG. Yep.

    I know Scaramanga had fun with terrozing Maud's character, Andrea (thanks for reminding me) with his gun as foreplay, but well, no. I think there was more innuendo at least in FYEO, from the countess to Bibi (which was not consummated, just out there on her part), to the lovely Melina ... and well I love the midnight swim at the end, too. Anyway, there's my vote.
  • saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
    Posts: 987
    TMWTGG the most sexually explicit? Well I suppose you've got the naked 'breast stroking' Chew Me, the bottoms up club with that extreme close up wriggling bottom shot (just in case you'd misunderstood the club's name), Maud and Roger wrestling on a bed, the half dressed belly dancer, voyeurism, lead girls in skimpy bikinis and baby doll nighties, synthetic nipples, Maud sucking on a gun barrel, school uniforms, young boy in swimming trunks (for those into that sort of thing!), forced captivity, Britt getting groped and Roger squeezing another man's buttocks really hard!!!
    Add to this you 've also got the phallic shaped 'mushroom' rock, the highly symbolic popping champagne bottle spurting white spray all over a midget and to top it all, a device called a 'Solex agitator' which sounds more like a woman's bedside vibrator than a brand new source of renewable energy.
    So is TMWTGG the most sexually explicit...I concur!
  • identigraphidentigraph
    Posts: 1,052
    I'm suprised extensive cuts weren't required for this film to get it's PG certificate, what with all the ass squeezing going on.
  • Sir_James_MoloneySir_James_Moloney
    Posts: 388
    Good question. I think you might be right DarthDimi. Perhaps the reason that there isn't as much agreement as you expected is because all of Moore's films have quite a comedic attitude towards sex. Moore's Bond is probably the most promiscuous of the lot but it's usually done with a wink and a smile so feels quite tame.

    Looking and all the points you raise and trying to think through Moore's other 6 films, I agree.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Going off of Dimi's points, I think I will have to agree with this thesis.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 232</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Kamran Shah's Western manners and English accent make Bond's association with the Mujahideen more easily digestible, even today.</b></font>
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I had not thought of that. I think that is probably true, for the western cultured folks who watch Bond films.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    And didn't Shah mention that he was educated in the west or something to that effect? I think these aspects help to make him more acceptable as an ally to Bond and someone who Bond would agree to join up with instead of having him be a completely uncultured Middle-eastern man who was shaped by that terrain since his birth.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I think he went to Eton. Or maybe Cambridge.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    4EverBonded wrote:
    I think he went to Eton. Or maybe Cambridge.

    I want to say Eton, but I am not sure. TLD aficionados like @thelivingroyale, @DarthDimi and @MajorDSmythe would be good choices to shed some light on this.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I thought it was Oxford really. ;-)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Figures it would be Oxford since I mentioned the other big one, Cambridge.
    I sort of remember the word "Eton". But I am probably remembering that wrong. Can't check the film just now ...
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 232</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Kamran Shah's Western manners and English accent make Bond's association with the Mujahideen more easily digestible, even today.</b></font>

    It was Oxford and I agree with the thesis. Cambridge is associated with Bond during YOLT and TSWLM if I recall that correctly as well. Unfortunately, a story like this one was only possible until the Afghans got rid of the Russians because they needed Western aid. It''ll likely never happen again.

  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 232</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Kamran Shah's Western manners and English accent make Bond's association with the Mujahideen more easily digestible, even today.</b></font>

    Yep, I would agree with this. Probably appeared a little odd at the time? But i was alot younger then, and if they were happy to 007? That's good enough for me! :D
  • StirredNotShakenStirredNotShaken Toronto
    Posts: 2,402
    It was Oxford, yes.

    I find the Mujahadeen part of TLD still greatly enjoyable even though it's aged horribly. Kamran Shah having a Western manner is minimal towards that enjoyability.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I would definitely agree with the thesis. I really had never thought of it in this light before now. I suppose that it says something about all of us.
  • saunderssaunders Living in a world of avarice and deceit
    edited July 2013 Posts: 987
    I'm not sure I entirely agree, I've always read Kamran Shah's Western manners and clipped English accent as a way of accentuating the difference between his subterfuge role of helpless, illeterate beggar/prisoner and his true identity of brave, noble, wise Mujahedeen commander. Also the English background would partly justify why a man in such a powerful position would bother to take heed of information from a lone Western foreigner.
    Did the audiences of the late eighties really need their cinematic Mujahedeen allies made more palatable with 'proper' breeding? I would argue that the characters that fill roughly the same role in the far more right wing 1989 film Rambo 3 managed perfectly well without any of the 'westernised trappings'.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 233</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Bond legacy could not have been done much cinematic justice before 1960.</b></font>
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 233</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Bond legacy could not have been done much cinematic justice before 1960.</b></font>

    Disagree.

    I would say it was, especially considering the limitations of the day. It would be unfair to compare todays capabilities to those of the 1960's. And it was a groundbreaking movie at the time.
  • QuarrelQuarrel
    Posts: 96
    I tend to agree. Bond in black and white, without any kind of special effects. Not a good thing.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 233</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Bond legacy could not have been done much cinematic justice before 1960.</b></font>
    Agreed. Look at Casino Royale 54. The 60's was a critical breaking point for Bond and Cinema as a whole.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Tentatively agree; need to think about Bond coming out in the 40's and 50's just post WWII. I think it perfect coming into play as it did.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    The 1960s seems to be in retrospect, the ideal time to make it's introduction on the silver screen. Thesis seems accurate enough
  • Dr_YesDr_Yes
    Posts: 169
    While I think it would have been possible to make a tough spy thriller from the Fleming source material prior to 1960, it really took the sixties mindset of pushing boundaries to really get the film series off on the right track. I doubt that the James Bond character would have been so appealing to moviegoers of the 50s as he was in the wake of JFK, manned space missions, Beatlemania, and other cultural upheavals that were only the tip of the iceberg.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 234</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Femke's Xenia is the most vicious henchwoman of the Bond series so far.</b></font>
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    She does get off on murder and keeps doing that untill she kind of dies. So yes I agree one certified psycho chick.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Yes, I agree. She is truly psycho. Even more than the lovely Volpe.
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 234</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Femke's Xenia is the most vicious henchwoman of the Bond series so far.</b></font>

    Absolutely agreed. Definitely the modern Fiona Volpe literally with a twist. Except this one is a term that for me doesn't necessarily apply to Volpe- a serial killer.
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