The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

1137138140142143190

Comments

  • Posts: 6,396
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I wonder if anyone will mention Pussy as more progressive... ;-) I can say right now that I would disagree with that. Pussy is old fashioned in the sense that she's a woman with - following the orthodoxy of the times - a weakness that only a strong man like Bond can 'cure'.

    Yes, because one kiss from Bond will always cure lesbianism X_X
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I liked Honey a lot, and she was independent in ways, but she couldn't quite be termed really progressive. Pussy was a strong enough woman on her own, but progressive ... I don't see it. Unless one thinks a woman pilot in the early 60's was that unusual. Yeah, the "orthodoxy of the times" does show the datedness of the film - Goldfinger is a film of its time and yet was different from any other movies, which is why Bond took off into the stratosphere with Goldfinger. The iconic moments helped, including the theme song of course (and how it was presented).

    It still has to be Fiona because she was incredibly competent, given more responsibilities, able to not be swayed by Bond, and stood toe to toe with the main villain, Largo.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Yes, I would mention Pussy Galore as perhaps the first progressive Bond girl. She was the first one that could really handle herself in situations and even the actress herself (Blackman) has said - "Well, the one's that came before, were sort of bimbos weren't they ?. But Pussy, she was a match for Bond" Well, at least it's a different response from what came before, and I'm content enough with it
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Not the first progressive Bond girl, the most progressive Bond girl of the entire 60's.
    Which if you still want to say Pussy, of course that's fine. These are just our personal takes on it. Pussy was strong and independent; I just think Fiona was even more so, the most progressive Bond girl for those times.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 242</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiona Volpe was the most progressive Bond girl of the 60s.</b></font>


    'Some men don't like to be driven.'
    'No, some men just don't want to be taken for a ride!'

    I will though! I will! ;-)

    Yes. She's independend, tells men what to do, isn't impressed by masculine behaviour. I think she qualifies as the most progressive.

    and fiesty of all the sixties!

    Did I mention I really like Fiona Volpe?

  • DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 242</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiona Volpe was the most progressive Bond girl of the 60s.</b></font>


    'Some men don't like to be driven.'
    'No, some men just don't want to be taken for a ride!'

    I will though! I will! ;-)

    Yes. She's independend, tells men what to do, isn't impressed by masculine behaviour. I think she qualifies as the most progressive.

    and fiesty of all the sixties!

    Did I mention I really like Fiona Volpe?

    Nah. You don't say :))

    I can't really agree or disagree with this thesis. A strong case can be made for Pussy, who was certainly not a shrinking violet type herself. People who aren't familiar with Japanese culture and mores miss out on Aki as well in this regard. She is also very forward in her thinking when it came to sleeping with Bond, whereas Kissy is traditional in matters regarding sex.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 242</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fiona Volpe was the most progressive Bond girl of the 60s.</b></font>

    Easily agree for me on this one! :x
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 243</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>No Bond film was ever so demanding of its Bond actor as CR.</b></font>
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I would agree with Thesis 243, but I want to say I recall Daniel Craig talking about how much more physically demanding QoS was for him, which I can understand. So, if that is the case, I'll have to disagree.

    Unless, of course, I'm totally missing the point of what 'demanding' we're speaking of.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I would agree with Thesis 243, but I want to say I recall Daniel Craig talking about how much more physically demanding QoS was for him, which I can understand. So, if that is the case, I'll have to disagree.

    Unless, of course, I'm totally missing the point of what 'demanding' we're speaking of.

    Demanding in general, @Creasy47, including the physical work, the straight-faced promotion of the film while seeming to swim up the stream, ...
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 6,396
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Creasy47 wrote:
    I would agree with Thesis 243, but I want to say I recall Daniel Craig talking about how much more physically demanding QoS was for him, which I can understand. So, if that is the case, I'll have to disagree.

    Unless, of course, I'm totally missing the point of what 'demanding' we're speaking of.

    Demanding in general, @Creasy47, including the physical work, the straight-faced promotion of the film while seeming to swim up the stream, ...

    You do realise @DarthDimi you've opened a whole can of worms for @Matt_Helm here ;-)

    In terms of this thesis, yes I would have to agree. I hadn't seen this much pressure on an actor taking on the role as much as DC did, certainly not in my lifetime at least. I think TD and PB especially got it pretty easy from the media and the fans.

    DC quite simply had to deliver or he would have been thrown to the wolves and EON would have been left scratching their heads as to where to go next.

    Of course, the rest is history and DC remained magmanamus throughout.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Daniel was despised before a frame of film was ever shot for Casino Royale. It was the most demanding story of them all, and really was, initially, quite a thankless job. Agree with the thesis. Lazenby deserves a mention, though.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    In terms of professionally demanding, I would have to agree with the thesis then, but I still keep my original statement in that I disagree in terms of it being physically demanding. Craig had so many doubters and haters - hell, even a full website dedicated to the role - when he came on board, for so many reasons: the 'floaties' during the announcement, the hair, the inability to drive stick, etc. It was probably the most tasking Bond film thus far for an actor in that capacity.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited August 2013 Posts: 7,314
    Certainly CR was, in many ways, very demanding for Craig. However, I'm going to nominate OHMSS and disagree with the thesis. You want to talk about pressure? Try following a legend whom the public at the time recognized as the one and only James Bond. Hell, some people still do. Lazenby's role might not have been as physically demanding as Craig in CR but there was still a great deal of physicality involved. He also had to play Bond with a certain amount of vulnerability to allow us to believe that he had fallen in love. Lastly, he had to perform that scene at the end.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Yes I'd go along with that. Craig was kept busy throughout, a very physically demanding appearance, as well as being the next James Bond on the scene, after Brosnan's departure. But as @pachazo said in the above, perhaps the greater pressure was on George Lazenby at the end of the 1960s, taking on the role, after Connery's greatness and stature that came before it. (at least for the most part)
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 1,052
    Lazenby was a nobody with no acting career and the promotion harldy mentioned him so I don't think he had much to lose.

    The negativity was over the top for Craig but I think this all worked in his favour in the end, there really wasn't much hype about Craig being the best Bond ever before CR came out, but on the other hand people were waiting for him to fall down.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Agree. It was the toughest one by far, I think.
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 3,494
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 243</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>No Bond film was ever so demanding of its Bond actor as CR.</b></font>

    If we're talking about more than just a physical sense and including enormous pressure in the face of adversity and public backlash not seen since the days of Lazenby replacing the icon himself, I agree with thesis.

    Craig matches up with Lazenby for on screen physicality, so aside from their similar situations in replacing a very popular and accepted actor previously in the role, there are no comparisons that can reasonably be made between the two in a logical sense. Craig is the professional actor here and he had the bigger burden on his back because more was expected of him as such. And if you were alive to remember both, the pressure of today's media with the internet and more news outlets than ever was withering compared to what George faced. Add to that an equally classic and for me a better debut with Casino Royale, the case couldn't be more clear in favor of Craig.



  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 243</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>No Bond film was ever so demanding of its Bond actor as CR.</b></font>

    I would certainly agree 100% with this too! The amount of anti-Craig nonsense that was out there was crazy! I was glad to see DC and CR stick it back right up his critics! <:-P
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 244</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>QOS' second half has more consistent storytelling than the first half.</b></font>
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 3,494
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 244</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>QOS' second half has more consistent storytelling than the first half.</b></font>

    I would tend to agree with this thesis if I knew what constitutes the first half and what constitutes the second. If I can assume that from the moment Bond and Camille discover the nature of what Greene is trying to do (if it's a test run to see if QUANTUM's domination of water resources worldwide is viable then I can excuse to a degree the lack of the film's focus on making their intentions more clear) through the powerful ending with Bond, Kabira, Corrine, and M, then yes the second half is clearly better written.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I agree. The former half just has Bond running around fighting people, while the second have slows it down (to an extent) while Bond researches what's going on, going to the party, checking out the sinkholes, talking to Felix about what's going on, and ending up at the hotel to stop everyone.
  • Posts: 6,396
    Yes but only by default given that QoS has no real story to speak of in the first half of the film. The first thirty minutes alone consists of a car chase, foot chase and boat chase. There is very little plot, if any at all, during this time.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Agree. And the final ending is, for me, what entirely saves this film. Well, that plus the wonderful opera scene.
  • Posts: 2,402
    I guess I agree with the thesis, but really, is the storyline good in the second half either? It's better, I guess, but still not good.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 244</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>QOS' second half has more consistent storytelling than the first half.</b></font>

    Agree: There certainly is more storytelling compared to the first half as exampled in some of the posts above.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Yes would go along with that. We understand what is going on and there's less of the general confusion from before. We discover the intentions of Greene and Montes for a start and things become a little more clearer, but as just mentioned - first half, second half - it still amounts to an overall poor adventure
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited August 2013 Posts: 4,515
    RE: THESIS 243 No Bond film was ever so demanding of its Bond actor as CR.

    Disagree. Pierce Brosnan and some of his fans get a lot of hate over them after DAD, that also count for Dalton and George Lazenby.

    Also i think QOS get more out of Daniel Craig. With Skyfall it whas oke in the movie, exept that i think he did a step back again outside of the movie where he again not be very friendley to media. It look more simalar to Casino Royale. Another proof the 4 year waiting whas to long.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    Disagree. I had no trouble following the story, it just goes to show that Bond at first wasn't really sure what was going on. I must admit though that they should've taken more time to flesh it all out. With that quick editing it was kind of hard to see if Bond actually knew what was going on (he didn't, he was just chasing leads and killing them off early, not entirely to his fault, but hey..).
  • edited August 2013 Posts: 7,653
    I never had any trouble with the storyline of QoS, it is the visuals and the directors choices I find horrible.
Sign In or Register to comment.