The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    In the initial films and the most recent ones, death means the most. As these are also some of the strongest films in the series, they may be better for it.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    edited January 2014 Posts: 4,423
    Hmm. In DN and FRWL you had Quarrell and Kerim Bey's death, and of course the signature scene for the entire series, imho, the shooting of Dent. Very significant, and poignant, I'd say.

    As the series went on, naturally, the death became more underplayed, but in the sixties films, GF-YOLT, death scenes were subtle.

    Sorry @Dimi, I'm going have to disagree
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 273</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Fleming Bond is more battle-scarred than the average movie Bond.</b></font>

    Unable to say but from what I have heard? Agree.


    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 274</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Re-casting Bond every few films is essential in keeping the franchise interesting.</b></font>

    Agree: It also keeps the series alive! Which is a good job as it's my hobby!
    ;)
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 275</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The tragedy of death was undersold most in the Connery film.</b></font>

    Agree: Probably wanting to bring something new and different onto the silver screen? This was most likely the brief that the producers gave Connery as their was nothing else like around in the 1960's?

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 276</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The FYEO PTS could have worked as the DAF PTS, with the rest of DAF's script kept unchanged.</b></font>

  • edited January 2014 Posts: 97
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 276</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The FYEO PTS could have worked as the DAF PTS, with the rest of DAF's script kept unchanged.</b></font>

    Anything would be an improvement on what we ended up with in DAF. In my opinion, the biggest missed opportunity in the entire franchise. How I long to see a Lazenby DAF, as a proper revenge tale. Dropping Blofeld down a chimney would have been a let down after OHMSS, but considerably less so than DAF was.

  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    So if the rest of the script was unchanged then Bond would actually have dropped one of Blofeld's doubles down the chimney? I don't like that idea. Still, at least it would have acknowledged Tracy's existence.

    Yes, it could have worked but not knowing Blofeld's fate at the end of the film is still frustrating.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited January 2014 Posts: 24,173
    Imagine Lazenby walking towards Tracy's grave and then getting picked up. Next we have Blofeld. I agree that the chimney drop will always annoy ;-) but IMO it's at least a lot better than, say, Blofeld standing there with a dissection knife - totally immobile - patiently awaiting his turn to get knocked down by Bond after one meaningless charge that couldn't have been aimed worse, no less via a big lamp, only to be subsequently pushed into a tub of hot mud. ;-)

    Also, I know why they put this particular thing in the PTS of FYEO, but I've never liked it there. ;-)

    So I agree with the thesis.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 12,837
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 274</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Re-casting Bond every few films is essential in keeping the franchise interesting.</b></font>

    When Dalton left, I was very sad to see him go, but then leading up to GE I was really excited about the prospect of a new Bond. Same after Brosnan left, while at first I was sad that we wouldn't get any more films with Pierce, once Craig was announced I was really excited to see his Bond.

    So I agree.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    The only problem I can think of with the current thesis is explaining why Blofeld (or his double) is in the wheelchair with a neck brace in the PTS but is in perfect health after the credits roll. Was this a ruse to deceive Bond? If so then what purpose does it serve?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Sure, why not? The whole Blofeld story arc in the EON films is such a huge mess anyway, Ed Wood would have been proud.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 276</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The FYEO PTS could have worked as the DAF PTS, with the rest of DAF's script kept unchanged.</b></font>

    Not sure if I like the idea of this? So I would have to disagree?
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,568
    It could've worked fine- but if given the chance, I wouldn't make it so.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Cut the nonsensical remarks from that PTS, and it would have been a good intro for Moore in LALD, I think. End of Blofeld after 10 years and enter the various Moore villains.
  • Posts: 11,425
    It was a poor way to finish off Blofeld. And it's a poor PTS.
  • Getafix wrote:
    It was a poor way to finish off Blofeld. And it's a poor PTS.

    I agree but I think it is slightly better than the DAF one because Tracy is actually mentioned.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 277</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Elektra's death overshadows Renard's, making the latter a dramatic anticlimax.</b></font>
  • DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 277</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Elektra's death overshadows Renard's, making the latter a dramatic anticlimax.</b></font>

    While I agree and think that the film did screw the deaths up, I don't have a problem with the idea of having Elektra's death overshadow Renard's, as she is the film's main villain. However, Elektra's death coming before that of Renard and the long action sequence leading up to his muck the film up. Had they removed the bit with Bond having to go outside the sub and just skipped straight to the fight scene, I believe the film would have benefited greatly. I believe the initial fight with the sub crew makes it seem anticlimactic. Or, they could have kept that part but have Elektra escape and Bond have to chase her down afterward.
  • Agree. Electra is the main villain of the film and Bond shooting her in cold blood should have been the ending of the film. But of course they went with the action-packed submarine finale.
  • Yes I think that's true. The death of King had a greater effect on this viewer than Renards ever did, and I think most theater audiences of the time would of been in agreement. It all gets a bit dull once Brosnan takes the plunge and gains entry to the submarine after the events of before. As the main antagonist has been killed off, the subsequent events would appear a little lackluster. Thesis is immaculate
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    It all gets a bit dull once Brosnan takes the plunge and gains entry to the submarine after the events of before.
    Yes, I think that's one of the main problems. That submarine sequence is so dull. A very disappointing showdown between the two characters. Had it been more exciting perhaps the whole thing could have been more satisfying. As it is I will have to agree with the thesis.
  • pachazo wrote:
    It all gets a bit dull once Brosnan takes the plunge and gains entry to the submarine after the events of before.
    Yes, I think that's one of the main problems. That submarine sequence is so dull. A very disappointing showdown between the two characters. Had it been more exciting perhaps the whole thing could have been more satisfying. As it is I will have to agree with the thesis.

    Defiantly one of my least favorite final battles in the Bond series. While Bond's cool and cold-blooded killing of Electra is pure Bond. For me that's not only on the few highlights in a very forgettable Bond film but maybe Brosnan's finest moment as 007. The movie completely goes downhill after that moment.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Agree - Elektra was the main villain, who is a love interest of Bond, so naturally, it overshadows Renard's death. As mentioned before, TWINE, like so many of the Bond's unfortunately, suffers from a weak climax.

  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 277</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Elektra's death overshadows Renard's, making the latter a dramatic anticlimax.</b></font>

    Would have to agree without doubt! A cold bloodied kill which I thought was brilliantly well done!
  • Renard could have been such a good villain, but he ended up just being a henchman, whereas Elektra was always boring and tedious, either as a Bond girl or a villain.
  • Renard could have been such a good villain, but he ended up just being a henchman, whereas Elektra was always boring and tedious, either as a Bond girl or a villain.

    For some reason I pressed post comment before I was finished -_-

    Elektra's death is hyped up when really it shouldn't have been anything, whereas Renard's was always going to be a bit flat. In the end, the fact Renard wasn't the main villain does put across TWINE's general poor writing.
  • I agree. I don't think the final fight is bad but it is anti climatic.
    In the end, the fact Renard wasn't the main villain does put across TWINE's general poor writing.

    It's called a plot twist. Much more interesting than just having Elektra be the damsel in distress and Renard be the main baddy imo.
    Bond shooting her in cold blood should have been the ending of the film.

    How would this have worked though? Renard stays behind while Elektra is on the submarine (which makes no sense, given that Elektra wouldn't know the first thing about operating a nuclear weapon)? Or Bond dealing with Renard first then going back to the tower and killing Elektra (which also wouldn't have worked because then Elektra probably would've killed M)?

    No, I think film had the right idea with the submarine finale. The problem was the fight with Renard should've been better.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 1,778
    I agree. I don't think the final fight is bad but it is anti climatic.
    In the end, the fact Renard wasn't the main villain does put across TWINE's general poor writing.

    It's called a plot twist. Much more interesting than just having Elektra be the damsel in distress and Renard be the main baddy imo.
    Bond shooting her in cold blood should have been the ending of the film.

    How would this have worked though? Renard stays behind while Elektra is on the submarine (which makes no sense, given that Elektra wouldn't know the first thing about operating a nuclear weapon)? Or Bond dealing with Renard first then going back to the tower and killing Elektra (which also wouldn't have worked because then Elektra probably would've killed M)?

    No, I think film had the right idea with the submarine finale. The problem was the fight with Renard should've been better.

    In a movie that never concerned itself with making sense I'm sure they would've found a way. Here's my suggestion. Valentine frees Bond from the torture chair, Electra escapes, Bond decides to save M rather than peruse her, Bond saves the day on the nuclear sub, and then instead of that horrible ending we got with Denise Richards the film ends with Bond tracking down Electra (kind of like the ending of QOS) has a personal confrontation with her and kills her in cold blood. Bond walks off into the shadows as badass and cold-blooded as ever as the credits roll. There you have it. Maybe I should've been hired to write TWINE ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The whole film is an anticlimax, so disagree.
  • edited January 2014 Posts: 115
    In the end, the fact Renard wasn't the main villain does put across TWINE's general poor writing.

    It's called a plot twist. Much more interesting than just having Elektra be the damsel in distress and Renard be the main baddy imo.

    The problem with that is that Renard could, nay should, have been a wonderful villain with an over-the-top power that made him threatening and interesting, and this wasted potential is my main problem with TWINE. Elektra is an okay Bond girl at best, but a very boring villain, and her motives and plans never particuarly clear. IMO TWINE would be a much better film had Renard been the main villain, Elektra the main girl, and not a single Denise Richards in sight.
  • In the end, the fact Renard wasn't the main villain does put across TWINE's general poor writing.

    It's called a plot twist. Much more interesting than just having Elektra be the damsel in distress and Renard be the main baddy imo.

    The problem with that is that Renard could, nay should, have been a wonderful villain with an over-the-top power that made him threatening and interesting, and this wasted potential is my main problem with TWINE. Elektra is an okay Bond girl at best, but a very boring villain, and her motives and plans never particuarly clear. IMO TWINE would be a much better film had Renard been the main villain, Elektra the main girl, and not a single Denise Richards in sight.

    Very true. That scenario would've made a much better movie. With Robert Carlyle being the fantastic actor he is he could've easily carried the villain role entirely on his own.
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