The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 303</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>CR is the only Craig Bond in which the second half is narratively stronger than the first half.</b></font>

    Disagree too with this thesis. For the reasons given already above, CR and SF are very similiar in this way but for me personally i feel CR has the better story line.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Disagree with the very premise.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 3043</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>"There's really more of a true Ian Fleming story in [LTK's] script than in most of the post-60s Bond movies." (Raymond Benson)</b></font>

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I'd certainly agree with that, given the sheer decadence of the James Bond films of the 1970s where all pretence of fidelity with the Ian Fleming original novels went out of the window if not through it.
  • Posts: 75
    Fleming's tone is what is missing. Fleming's plots were rubbish frankly - the books impress us with the style, the characters, the imagination. Which frankly LTK is devoid of.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I tried to quote you, @StoneShi, and got a "Bad Request" message. Hmmmm...
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I'd agree but with some hesitation. There are certainly some golden Flemingesque moments sprinkled throughout but I still think that it portrays Bond as going too far over the edge. Perhaps it's the inverse of FYEO in a way. It got too dark where FYEO was too "light" at times. TLD is probably the most balanced of the three.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I tried to quote you, @StoneShi, and got a "Bad Request" message. Hmmmm...

    Hey! @Thunderfinger! @StoneShi don't do no quotes.

    danny-trejo-machete-pic21.jpg

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    :))
  • Posts: 11,189
    There are a few scenes that echo Fleming but to be honest I think LTK has more in common with the action/drug themed films of that era. IMO FYEO, TLD and even OP at times are closer to Fleming. So disagree.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I tried to quote you, @StoneShi, and got a "Bad Request" message. Hmmmm...

    Should have told you something...

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 305</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Moore's Bond performances are more consistent than Connery's.</b></font>

  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I'd go further and say Connery is the only Bond's to get weaker as they went on. Brosnan got stronger and everyone else was consistent.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Roger Moore seemed to play different takes on the Bond character every few films - LALD-TMWTGG, TSWLM-MR, FYEO-AVTAK would probably be the break-down whereas Connery only changed in YOLT and DAF, so I Disagree.
  • THESIS 305:
    Well he sort of has 2 performances... LALD / TMWTGG and then the rest. I think in the first two, someone must have told him to be like Connery before they let him do his own thing (and was much better for it)

    Specifically, he was kind of a dick in TMWTGG.....
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Samuel001 wrote: »
    I'd go further and say Connery is the only Bond's to get weaker as they went on. Brosnan got stronger and everyone else was consistent.
    I agree with the thesis in general, and with Samuel001's observation.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    I am going to agree. Other than TMWTGG, Roger's Bond was fairly consistent during his run. Connery was fine for the first four, but went really downhill on the last two.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    I will agree but there are subtle differences in some of Moore's performances, as others have mentioned. There is not a change so drastic as Connery's YOLT and DAF period though.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 305</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Moore's Bond performances are more consistent than Connery's.</b></font>

    Let's examine this film by film, shall we?

    DN: Connery's still new to the role, so he has quite developed the confidence and swagger that would become a hallmark. Still a dynamic, influential performance.
    FRWL: At the height of his powers here, he's the very picture of a tough as nails yet suave secret agent.
    GF: See above, but leaning more toward suavity.
    TB: As cool as ever, but the dangerous aspect is starting to suffer a little. The quality of the film as a whole might have an effect here.
    YOLT: Connery's clearly starting to get bored in the role and is letting his natural charisma carry him through.
    DAF: In it for the paycheck, and that's that. Old, bald, and fat.

    LALD: Moore's primary goal here is not to be Connery, and hasn't established his own voice.
    TMWTGG: A bad Connery imitation, made worse by their drastically different natural gifts.
    TSWLM: Moore finally finds his voice, and his humorous charisma with just enough edge carries the movie.
    MR: See above.
    FYEO: Moore emphasizes the danger and the edge, along with Bond's advancing age.
    OP: The same as FYEO, although he lapses a bit too far into silliness, and his age is starting to take its toll.
    AVTAK: He's 58, which is far too old for any self-respecting Bond actor.

    By my tally, we have 2 classic performances from Connery, two great ones, an average one and a bad one.

    For Moore, we have two classic performances, two great ones, an average one, and two bad ones.

    Perhaps Connery is technically less consistent because his highs were higher, but he doesn't seem appreciably more inconsistent than Moore.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 305</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Moore's Bond performances are more consistent than Connery's.</b></font>

    I would agree with this thesis and highlight the very good observations by samuel as my reason.
  • Posts: 15,124
    THESIS 305:
    Well he sort of has 2 performances... LALD / TMWTGG and then the rest. I think in the first two, someone must have told him to be like Connery before they let him do his own thing (and was much better for it)

    Specifically, he was kind of a dick in TMWTGG.....

    I actually think his performance in LALD and TMWTGG are maybe his best, and in Gun one of the few good things about the movie.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    THESIS 305:
    Well he sort of has 2 performances... LALD / TMWTGG and then the rest. I think in the first two, someone must have told him to be like Connery before they let him do his own thing (and was much better for it)

    Specifically, he was kind of a dick in TMWTGG.....

    I actually think his performance in LALD and TMWTGG are maybe his best, and in Gun one of the few good things about the movie.

    Not sure about LALD one of his best performances, but certainly one the very best Bonds I(=Great,great entertainment!!!), but absolutely agree with every word about TMWTGG. The wolfish smile to M after he reassures him,that Scaramangas Dead would get him back on duty is to me his only believable dangerous look in all of his Bonds. Love it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,801
    I love every outrageous OTT moment of TMWTGG except the slide whistle.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    The slide whistle... the one thing I cannot forgive Barry.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,189
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I love every outrageous OTT moment of TMWTGG except the slide whistle.

    Funnily enough the slide whistle is the one outrageous moment I can tolerate. The rest (school-girls doing Karate, Britt Eckland talking over the radio in the car, Britt Eckland triggering the Solex with her arse cheeks, Bond pushing the kid into the canal) I loathe.
  • Posts: 15,124
    Matt_Helm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    THESIS 305:
    Well he sort of has 2 performances... LALD / TMWTGG and then the rest. I think in the first two, someone must have told him to be like Connery before they let him do his own thing (and was much better for it)

    Specifically, he was kind of a dick in TMWTGG.....

    I actually think his performance in LALD and TMWTGG are maybe his best, and in Gun one of the few good things about the movie.

    Not sure about LALD one of his best performances, but certainly one the very best Bonds I(=Great,great entertainment!!!), but absolutely agree with every word about TMWTGG. The wolfish smile to M after he reassures him,that Scaramangas Dead would get him back on duty is to me his only believable dangerous look in all of his Bonds. Love it.

    His later Bond movies may have been more consistent with Moore's style, but I find him far better when he was still finding his way in TMWTGG. Maybe not as personal a performance and influenced by Connery, but far more satisfying. And deserving a much better movie than TMWTGG.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I love every outrageous OTT moment of TMWTGG except the slide whistle.

    So to clarify - you actually think an elephant pushing JW in the canal and kung fu schoolgirls were a positive contribution to the series?

    I just hope for your sake that that doesn't end up being written on your tombstone one day because it would be a pretty damning epitaph to anyone's life.

    Anyway in terms of the question posed:

    Sean
    DN - pretty much perfect
    FRWL - perfecter
    GF - perfect film Bond but seems to be starting to play himself rather than the character of the first film.
    TB - same as GF but turned up to 11.
    YOLT - just can't be arsed.
    DAF - still can't be arsed but knows he's making a shit load of cash and gets time off to play golf with Guy Hamilton so having a great time.
    NSNA - on sparkling form - a return to his GF and TB days - despite the shambles around him.

    Rog

    LALD - seems to be finding his feet slightly and not quite up to the Rog of later years.
    TMWTGG - gives a pretty good performance in what could have been the hardest edged Moore film if it hadn't been littered with embarrassing comedy moments.
    TSWLM - just like Sean finally nails his own take on the perfect film Bond.
    MR - another quintessential Rog performance as Bond.
    FYEO - another fine Rog performance with some good serious moments despite his comedy strengths being toned down a bit.
    OP - on a par with TSWLM. In fact I think it might actually be better as there are some really superb suspenseful moments during the bomb countdown which Rog nails along with his usual classic Rog moments.
    AVTAK - a very small drop off but that's probably more to do with the script and his age rather than any fault lying with Rog's performance.

    However we are not discussing the merits of their performances but consistency and on this question, like Partridge in the first episode of KNKY(WAP), I have to say I'm firmly in the Roger camp.

    Sean has two perfect Fleming Bond performances in DN and FRWL, two perfect film Bond performances in GF and TB and then to varying degrees just turns up for the money and doesn't have his heart in it in the other three.

    Rog has two slightly uneven performances in LALD and TMWTGG but then a superbly consistent run of 4 perfectly assured performances with only a slight drop off for AVTAK.

    So while once Sean starts getting famous he can't be bothered, Rog is professional to the hilt. He knows his strengths and plays to them. He's never going to deliver a Dalton or Craig performance but there will be no one who will ever deliver pure entertaining Bond with such a twinkle as Sir Rog and to do it so well time and time again and make it look effortless just goes to show what a legend he really is.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I liked him best in Spy, FYEO and OP.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I love every outrageous OTT moment of TMWTGG except the slide whistle.

    YOLT - just can't be arsed.

    I can't help but say that Connery-style.

    My problem with some of Moore's performances is that, while he seemed confident most if not all the time, in several of his films Rog just didn't feel like Bond. In Spy, FYEO and OP I believe he is an agent going about doing his job like a professional. That's why I think those three are his best overall performances. He plays the role with a good mix of authority and gentlemanly charm (despite his pretty poor fight scenes). In MR and AVTAK he's an ageing dude either sleazing it up or posing quite a bit of the time.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited September 2014 Posts: 17,801
    chrisisall wrote: »
    I love every outrageous OTT moment of TMWTGG except the slide whistle.

    So to clarify - you actually think an elephant pushing JW in the canal and kung fu schoolgirls were a positive contribution to the series?
    Those were hilarious moments, and since Moore Bonds are mainly sheer entertainment and not spy thrillers, yes, they were fine additions. Moore Bond films are their own genre, and can't be judged the same way as the rest.
    :D
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Those were hilarious moments

    There's literally nothing I can say to that except I presume you're also a big fan of Mrs Brown's Boys?
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