The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 309</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Glen's editing in OHMSS was the most aggressive until QOS.</b></font>

    Agree to a point. The editing in OHMSS was aggressive in the fight scenes which were fantastic, but in QOS in i felt the editing was too aggressive in terms at how fast the story was being pushed along.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    SaintMark wrote: »
    there is a difference between aggressive editing and excessive editing!!

    And also a difference between aggressive editing and shit editing.
  • I can think of few other Bond films prior to QOS with editing as aggressive as OHMSS's.

    Thunderball: wipe transitions, sped-up action sequences, Domino's voice-over
    Die Another Day: speed-ramping
    Casino Royale: cutting back and forth between the bathroom fight and Bond's confrontation with Dryden & sharp, disorienting cuts when Bond is poisoned

    At the end of the day though, OHMSS really was edited the most aggressively overall. You have furious cuts and sped-up motion during the fights (beach fight, hotel fight, Draco's outer corridor fight), montage-like cross dissolves leading into the ski chase, the falling-in-love montage between Bond and Tracy intercut with shots of sunlight pouring through branches, the shot of Tracy being dragged from the snow superimposed over M's office window. The film was definitely aggressively tackled in the editing room, with high style in mind, and it shows. I could see someone making a case for Thunderball (might do that myself if I find the time), but I agree with this thesis.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    SaintMark wrote: »
    there is a difference between aggressive editing and excessive editing!!

    And also a difference between aggressive editing and shit editing.

    Brilliant.
  • Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote: »
    there is a difference between aggressive editing and excessive editing!!

    And also a difference between aggressive editing and shit editing.

    For once I was nice about QoB, but you are right. Shit is the word.

  • As an editor myself I have to believe that, although Glen was listed as editor, Peter Hunt most likely edited OHMSS himself, or at the very least supervised Glen way more than any other director would. After all OHMSS was Hunt's baby, after editing the previous Bonds. If, as an editor, I was given the chance to direct a Bond film, you can be damn sure that I'd edit the thing myself, whether I got credit for it or not. Glen was probably acting more as an assistant editor to Hunt, and I'm sure learned a lot from the master.

    And yes, the editing in QOS is unnecessarily terrible. It draws attention to itself, which good editing should never do. Watching the action scenes you can imagine all the wonderful reaction shots of Craig that we were cheated out of seeing. Watching his reaction to things is what makes so many of these action scenes so enjoyable.
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Can they be compared? OHMSS's editing may not be fantastic, but I'd not compare it to QOS's either, a whole different league. As if something was missing from the latter on purpose. I'm fine with the intro and the opera scene. But the boat action, dogfight and some other odds and ends are just horrible.
  • I don't think it's the quality of the editing that's being debated here, but the amount/aggressiveness/impact of the editing upon the footage shot.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    Perhaps an argument could be made for parts of TND, DAD and CR but I'm not in an argumentative mood so I'll agree.
  • Tomorrow Never Dies is an interesting choice. Are you thinking specifically of the editing during the PTS, the car park chase, and the stealth boat finale?
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    @Some_Kind_Of_Hero, yes, those sprang to mind along with the motorcycle chase.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    The TND PTS is a mini masterclass in cross-cutting imo. I think its one of the best in the series.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Indeed, TND is one of the best edited films in the series. Not one shot wasted.
  • Maybe, but I feel when editors move on to directing, the result never lets you breathe out... It is too tight, with no leg room. I feel that way about OHMSS and TND, maybe FYEO. Editors' job is to tighten up, cut the flab, but a director's job is to give the film life and vitality.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,160
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 310</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>For most of the Bond directors, the Bond films were their best achievement.</b></font>
  • Posts: 12,526
    Think I agree with this statement? Their may be the odd exception though?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Young - As the man who created a template that has lasted 50 years a resounding yes.
    Hamilton - Certainly
    Gilbert - No. Films such as Alfie and Educating Rita are held in much higher regard than his Bond output.
    Hunt - Indubitably. His other films are dismal.
    Glen - See Hunt above.
    Campbell - Definitely, although the TV version of Edge of Darkness is pretty decent.
    Spottiswoode - Given he's never been heard of before or since it has to be a resounding yes.
    Apted - Coal Miners Daughter received 7 Oscar nominations so you'd have to say no.
    Tamahori - Once Were Warriors and Devils Double are decent. DAD is not so another no.
    Forster - Although I've not seen it the reputation of The Kite Runner means it has to be better than QOS.
    Mendes - Well given the awards American Beauty won it has to be a no.

    So that's 6 directors for whom Bond was the high water mark and 5 for whom it wasn't so the ayes have it by a surprisingly narrow margin.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 6,844
    @TheWizardOfIce has broken it down nicely, although for Apted I would have provided his 7 Up documentaries as evidence (as much as I love The World is Not Enough) and for Forster, Finding Neverland (as much as I do love Quantum of Solace). There's an interesting trend I can see in that list, however—that the Bond work of more recent directors has not been to par with their non-Bond work. This is likely because Michael and Barbara have been shooting for more esteemed directors who already have strong films under their belts, but it's also disconcerting that they for the most part haven't been living up to their reputations. Does this mean we need a director who understands Bond better—or something else? An idea for a future debate perhaps? ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,160
    Good suggestion, @Some_Kind_Of_Hero. ;-)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @TheWizardOfIce has broken it down nicely, although for Apted I would have provided his 7 Up documentaries as evidence (as much as I love The World is Not Enough) and for Forster, Finding Neverland (as much as I do love Quantum of Solace). There's an interesting trend I can see in that list, however—that the Bond work of more recent directors has not been to par with their non-Bond work. This is likely because Michael and Barbara have been shooting for more esteemed directors who already have strong films under their belts, but it's also disconcerting that they for the most part haven't been living up to their reputations. Does this mean we need a director who understands Bond better—or something else? An idea for a future debate perhaps? ;)

    I agree that 7Up will be what Apted will be remembered for but those are a TV documentary and wasnt really sure they could be classed alongside feature film work.
  • @TheWizardOfIce has broken it down nicely, although for Apted I would have provided his 7 Up documentaries as evidence (as much as I love The World is Not Enough) and for Forster, Finding Neverland (as much as I do love Quantum of Solace). There's an interesting trend I can see in that list, however—that the Bond work of more recent directors has not been to par with their non-Bond work. This is likely because Michael and Barbara have been shooting for more esteemed directors who already have strong films under their belts, but it's also disconcerting that they for the most part haven't been living up to their reputations. Does this mean we need a director who understands Bond better—or something else? An idea for a future debate perhaps? ;)

    I agree that 7Up will be what Apted will be remembered for but those are a TV documentary and wasnt really sure they could be classed alongside feature film work.

    Fair enough. Also, I wasn't questioning your examples in case it reads that way, just offering my own thoughts on Apted's and Forster's filmographies. :)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    @TheWizardOfIce has broken it down nicely, although for Apted I would have provided his 7 Up documentaries as evidence (as much as I love The World is Not Enough) and for Forster, Finding Neverland (as much as I do love Quantum of Solace). There's an interesting trend I can see in that list, however—that the Bond work of more recent directors has not been to par with their non-Bond work. This is likely because Michael and Barbara have been shooting for more esteemed directors who already have strong films under their belts, but it's also disconcerting that they for the most part haven't been living up to their reputations. Does this mean we need a director who understands Bond better—or something else? An idea for a future debate perhaps? ;)

    I agree that 7Up will be what Apted will be remembered for but those are a TV documentary and wasnt really sure they could be classed alongside feature film work.

    Fair enough. Also, I wasn't questioning your examples in case it reads that way, just offering my own thoughts on Apted's and Forster's filmographies. :)

    I agree with your point that there does seem to be a shift in policy by EON. It used to be that they looked for a journeyman director who didnt cost too much or promoted someone for whom it was their first job and therefore Bond represented the high water mark of their career.

    Recently however (and certainly since the Craig era) they seem to be going for people who are already names in the business and for whom doing Bond might be considered slumming it.

    Difficult to say which approach works better. All you can say is that OHMSS and CR were done by directors who will hardly go down as greats and QOS was directed by a bloke who has a load of Oscar nominations for his films. Go figure.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited September 2014 Posts: 24,160
    Interesting stuff, guys.
    What I find interesting also is that Hunt and Glen had been part of the Bond family in other capacities (editor, second unit director) before they became director. In that sense, Hunt's contributions to the Bond series in the first couple of films are at least as important - or even more important - as when he directed OHMSS. Same thing perhaps for Glen, only he directed no less than five Bond films and so he may be remembered more as a director than as an editor.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Young (DN, FRWL, TB) - As Wiz said, he's responsible for the series' entire template. Yes.
    Hamilton (GF, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG) - Battle of Britain and Remo Williams up against these clunkers? No.
    Gilbert (YOLT, TSWLM, MR) - Against Alfie? No! There's an argument to be made, I suppose, for TSWLM but certainly not the other two.
    Hunt (OHMSS) - Absolutely yes. One of the definitive pieces of British cinema (OHMSS) against an otherwise rather poor body of work.
    Glen (FYEO, OP, AVTAK, TLD, LTK) - Well, to begin with, every other movie this man has helmed is abysmal. And he did more Bond films than the rest of his directorial work combined. So that's out of the way. But let's talk about Glen's Bond films. Five - more than any other director of any other widespread film series - even Lucas has directed less of the Star Wars films - that are all vastly different from one another. Though the quality of one (we all know which one) is mediocre at best, its' uniqueness in the series is admirable. Two of the remaining are in my top five Bond films - and I'd say TLD is one of the best films ever, period - with a third also in my top ten and a fourth just outside of it. The fact that this man made five different Bond films and kept that consistent and high a level of quality makes this an absolute, 100% YES.
    Campbell (GE, CR) - Hmm. A fantastic Bond film and a Bond film that sits in my ten favourite films ever made vs. a bunch of garbage and a decent TV series. This is the biggest yes of them all, probably.
    Spottiswoode (TND) - He has a rocky filmography, but seeing as Under Fire is a classic and Shoot to Kill is one of the greatest films of the 80s, when compared to the bloated, mediocre TND this is absolutely a no for me.
    Apted (TWINE) - The 'Up' documentaries are so good that they make you question whether or not he actually directed TWINE. No.
    Tamahori (DAD) - Once Were Warriors. NO! That is all.
    Forster (QoS) - Ruined one of my all-time favourite novels (The Kite Runner) and, unlike his other films, QoS at least has like two or three things that don't totally suck. Yes for me.
    Mendes (SF) - So for me this is really Road to Perdition vs. Skyfall. And you know what? Road to Perdition is one of my favourite movies of all time. That being said, it isn't also the seventh-highest grossing film ever, nor is it responsible for introducing an entirely new generation of fans to a 50-year film franchise, and recapturing the spirits of those who were already fans. I do think "Road" is the better film, but Skyfall's impact on Bond is the biggest since Dr. No came out in 1962. Yes for me.

    Six yes, five no. Since one of the "yes" directors has five Bond films to his name and another has three, I would say the thesis is spot on.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Hamilton (GF, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG) - Battle of Britain and Remo Williams up against these clunkers? No.

    Yep you've won me over there. Only one of the most iconic films of the 60s versus what looks like a fanboy tribute to Bond off Youtube with a personality free lead and a toe curling racist white man made up as a poor mans Mr Miagyi that grossed less than Schindlers List did at the Tehran multiplex.

    Seriously?
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 7,653
    Young (DN, FRWL, TB) - As Wiz said, he's responsible for the series' entire template. Yes.

    I do like Soleil Rouge and triple cross quite a lot and have seen Poppies are flowers as well, written by a certain Ian Fleming, but indeed his heritage remains the three 007 movies he made and they are all the better ones in the franchise.
    Hamilton (GF, DAF, LALD, TMWTGG) - Battle of Britain and Remo Williams up against these clunkers? No.
    GF is strangely enough his masterpiece even if he did the first two Roger Moore movies and I admit liking his two Agatha Christie cinematic outings and Force 10 from Navarone being a guilty pleasure of mine. I wonder why he never was able to do something as brilliant as GF.
    Gilbert (YOLT, TSWLM, MR) - Against Alfie? No! There's an argument to be made, I suppose, for TSWLM but certainly not the other two.

    Educating Rita & Shirley Valantine should most definetaly be mentioned along Alfie as all three movies did show some great insight in the English psyche. And I quite enjoyed Sinck the Bismark.
    Hunt (OHMSS) - Absolutely yes. One of the definitive pieces of British cinema (OHMSS) against an otherwise rather poor body of work.

    I am amazed how little did man has done, but I do want to mention Gold & Shout at the devil as two brilliant movies he made, both with Roger Moore I might add.
    Glen (FYEO, OP, AVTAK, TLD, LTK) - Well, to begin with, every other movie this man has helmed is abysmal. And he did more Bond films than the rest of his directorial work combined. So that's out of the way. But let's talk about Glen's Bond films. Five - more than any other director of any other widespread film series - even Lucas has directed less of the Star Wars films - that are all vastly different from one another. Though the quality of one (we all know which one) is mediocre at best, its' uniqueness in the series is admirable. Two of the remaining are in my top five Bond films - and I'd say TLD is one of the best films ever, period - with a third also in my top ten and a fourth just outside of it. The fact that this man made five different Bond films and kept that consistent and high a level of quality makes this an absolute, 100% YES.

    This mans list of work is impressive and shows that some of his productions ran alongside Hunt, but for a director of 5 successful 007 movies his total output is surprisingly little.
    Campbell (GE, CR) - Hmm. A fantastic Bond film and a Bond film that sits in my ten favourite films ever made vs. a bunch of garbage and a decent TV series. This is the biggest yes of them all, probably.

    When it comes to tv shows the man worked on some pretty good shows, his moviework is somehow hit and run with the two Zorro movies easily being his best work and I did enjoy his Vertical limit a lot. His two Bond movies stand easily on top of his career.
    Spottiswoode (TND) - He has a rocky filmography, but seeing as Under Fire is a classic and Shoot to Kill is one of the greatest films of the 80s, when compared to the bloated, mediocre TND this is absolutely a no for me.

    Turner & Hooch is easily one of my favorite comedies and Ripley Underground was a great dark movie that I really enjoyed as well.
    Apted (TWINE) - The 'Up' documentaries are so good that they make you question whether or not he actually directed TWINE. No.

    Coal miners'daughter, Gorillas in the mist, Gorky Park, Nell are some of his work which is pretty impressive. TWINE was a job in between for him.
    Tamahori (DAD) - Once Were Warriors. NO! That is all.

    The man started so brilliant with Once were Warriors and Mulholland Falls. what the heck happened? Does Hollywood corrupt? This guy makes a good case for that.
    Forster (QoS) - Ruined one of my all-time favourite novels (The Kite Runner) and, unlike his other films, QoS at least has like two or three things that don't totally suck. Yes for me.

    Finding Neverland, Monster Ball & the Kite runner all show his skills, still not sure what he thought he would do with a 007 movie.
    Mendes (SF) - So for me this is really Road to Perdition vs. Skyfall. And you know what? Road to Perdition is one of my favourite movies of all time. That being said, it isn't also the seventh-highest grossing film ever, nor is it responsible for introducing an entirely new generation of fans to a 50-year film franchise, and recapturing the spirits of those who were already fans. I do think "Road" is the better film, but Skyfall's impact on Bond is the biggest since Dr. No came out in 1962. Yes for me.

    SF is easily the least movie the man has done, now lets hope his next one is true to his earlier accomplishments.
  • edited September 2014 Posts: 5,990
    Well, for Spottiswood, I think "Under Fire" was a better movie.



    And I rank "Mask of Zorro" over "Goldeneye" for Campbell (but under CR '06).

    And if we count the "unofficials", well, any of the directors who helmed CR '67 have done much better movies on their own. And "Empire Strikes Back" is still the best movie of the Star Wars franchise, and thus a better movie than NSNA.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2014 Posts: 24,160
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 311</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>DAF's laser mayhem offered the poorest effects of the Connery years.</b></font>

  • TokolosheTokoloshe Under your bed
    edited October 2014 Posts: 2,667
    I agree. The artificial blue screen driving in DN is fairly bad but was forgivable due to it being the first film, lower budget and a fairly commonplace technique at the time. The DAF lasers are just cringeworthy though.

    You could extended the hypothesis (not thesis!) to the whole series. I suspect this one would still be true.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited October 2014 Posts: 9,117
    Tokoloshe wrote: »

    You could extended the hypothesis (not thesis!) to the whole series. I suspect this one would still be true.

    You suspect wrongly. I give you exhibit A: the DAD parasurfing scene.

    So poor it would still have been embarrassing in 1971.
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