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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • NapoleonPluralNapoleonPlural
    Posts: 512
    We had to many subtexts in SF imo.

    The whole thing of Bond being old is, I would say, meant to reflect the ageing franchise and also an ageing former superpower and the way it addresses its past. After all, Bond says 'We go back to the past' or something like that when he heads out to the SF lodge. The whole film is about the disgraceful treatment of its former colonies, in particular M and so on, and her taking up and mistreating orphans like Bond even has a pleasing symmetry with Dench's other film Philomena.

    So you have all this old dogs stuff, but at the same time we have to fit it in with the previous two movies and their baggage regarding Bond's coming of age and growing up, which was always a big ask with Craig looking older. But that's what you get, I mean all the new films have to follow the screenwriter's dictum that the leading man has to be different at the end of the movie to how he is at the beginning. So they must have thought they were onto a winner with the whole CR reboot, as it allows Bond to be seen to develop emotionally as a person and fulfil that rule, only Bond was meant to take his time growing up, otherwise what do they do then?

    The theme of ageing in SF clashes with his newbie theme in CR and QoS, but by that time I think audiences were expected to just deal with it and see Bond more as a generic character, esp after his Olympics stunt that year. That's why you have the Aston equipped like in the Connery films, it's Bond as a generic guy, not an individual.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is no worse than the DARK KNIGHT trilogy.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 314</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Q's gadgets made the screenwriters lazy during the later Moore years.</b></font>
  • Campbell2Campbell2 Epsilon Rho Rho house, Bending State University
    Posts: 299
    Agree, the gadgets became the cop-out for dangerous situations. Not in all of Moore's Bonds, but in some of them, MR for example. Was never explained why Bond didn't use his dart bracelet against Jaws, was it? Same with the Seikos, always something useful inside them. The self-destruct of the Lotus in FYEO lead to a great chase though, loved that!
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    However, I would say that the miraculous, and so convenient, safe-cracker device that Bond suddenly whips out of his pocket in You Only Live Twice is perhaps the worst case of lazy screenwriting.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    I agree with that, yet by that time Connery had so much built in respect as the character, but the gags that became a staple of the Moore era became simply ridiculous.

    That's why the tome for OHMSS is just perfect, and I blame ole' George for lousing up a pretty good thing going. He had that brutal hotel room fight in his film, while did ANYONE buy Moore being able to beat up anybody in Live and Let Die?

    Would have loved to have seen Laz in that one.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    I agree with that, yet by that time Connery had so much built in respect as the character, but the gags that became a staple of the Moore era became simply ridiculous.

    That's why the tome for OHMSS is just perfect, and I blame ole' George for lousing up a pretty good thing going. He had that brutal hotel room fight in his film, while did ANYONE buy Moore being able to beat up anybody in Live and Let Die?

    Would have loved to have seen Laz in that one.

    That has nothing to do with the thesis at hand.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    You're right.

    The theme is the gadgets in the Moore years, and I think all that just got out of control. the Gondola car? Really? Which Moore film was that?

    I will say, that in all fairness, the Lotus in, I think it was TSWLM was really, really cool.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited October 2014 Posts: 7,314
    I suppose it did make them lazy at times but I think that this trend started in YOLT and shouldn't just be blamed on films that Roger Moore stars in.

    The Little Nellie scene in particular always seemed so extraneous. It was just an excuse to show off Q's latest toy and I always laugh unintentionally at it. I'm sure it looked cool in 1967 but it hasn't aged well in my opinion.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    Little Nellie is one of the few things I still like about YOLT. Yes, the gadgets were the trigger for lazy writing during Moore's tenure, but you could extend this to his successors too, including Dalton.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Yes, the gadgets were the trigger for lazy writing during Moore's tenure, but you could extend this to his successors too, including Dalton.
    Don't blame Dalton for salt corrosion now....
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Little Nellie is one of the few things I still like about YOLT. Yes, the gadgets were the trigger for lazy writing during Moore's tenure, but you could extend this to his successors too, including Dalton.

    You could also extend it through to SF. A lot of necessary explanation is buried underneath the hacking and general tech gibberish. The Moore tenure was definitely hampered by an over-reliance on gadgets, they just became too much of a staple, with little thought for their validity or necessity. That said, I've still got to laugh at Rog in the Crocodile Sub.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited October 2014 Posts: 11,189
    I've used this example before but I'm amused at how Sean manages to have a safe cracking device conveniently on hand in YOLT despite not knowing when he set off to Henderson's that he'd be in the office.

    At least with a watch you can wear it conspicuously around your wrist all the time.

    Oh and Rog in the crocodile sub has to be one of the silliest shots in the entire series.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Yes, the gadgets were the trigger for lazy writing during Moore's tenure, but you could extend this to his successors too, including Dalton.
    Don't blame Dalton for salt corrosion now....

    I'm not blaming him for this, on the contrary. I think the weakest parts of TLD and LTK are often linked to the use of gadgets, or simply their introduction.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    RC7 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Little Nellie is one of the few things I still like about YOLT. Yes, the gadgets were the trigger for lazy writing during Moore's tenure, but you could extend this to his successors too, including Dalton.

    You could also extend it through to SF. A lot of necessary explanation is buried underneath the hacking and general tech gibberish. The Moore tenure was definitely hampered by an over-reliance on gadgets, they just became too much of a staple, with little thought for their validity or necessity. That said, I've still got to laugh at Rog in the Crocodile Sub.

    It is true that computer hacking becomes a deux ex machina in SF.

    I love the crocodile sub. It serves a purpose and is a useful gadget not implausible.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I love the crocodile sub.

    Me too.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    One thing I don't get. How does he end up getting in the sub? We see him fighting with a thug in the water, a crocodile come up to him and then hear a scream before it goes silent. Was that a deliberate move to fake his death and if so what happened to the thug?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    @BAIN123 as always anymals prefer thugs for dinner. The scream was the thug's, Bond just makes his getaway under water so to get away from the island.

    Yes, those gadgets make for lazy screenwriting, and have been ever since up 'till DAD, where the invisible car's tracks are not spotted by the guards. I mean come on. Anyway, it just got worse and worse.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2014 Posts: 15,718
    I like Bond's quip in MR with his exploding watch "Bang on time!". It's as if Bond himself became self-aware that the gadgets were always bang on time to save him or make the plot go forward.
  • OHMSS69OHMSS69
    Posts: 2,341
    Pierce was approaching 50 but he was aging very gracefully and though I'm not a fan of his, he was very popular and his films made truckloads of money. It was logical for EON to continue with him and yes, the film would have been more grounded in reality and more like GE or TND.

    But after much consideration it was decided to do a reboot and go with a younger actor to play Bond.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Can't say I agree with this thesis.

    This started to a certain extent with TB with the jet pack and water jets in the DB5.

    YOLT carried it on with the aforementioned safe cracker and the climbing suckers and ninja outfit.

    Then there's DAF with its fake fingerprints.

    Then the Brozza era has the BMW logo wire cutter thing in TND and the miracle super rappelling watch in TWINE to name the most obvious.

    To level this solely at the Rog era seems a bit harsh. And what better cover than a gondola in Venice? Of course Q is going to soup it up a bit. It's a great gadget? No? ;)
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    The query is specifically to the Moore era. I think the gadgets in the Connery Bonds most of the time help serve the story, not undercut the character. that croc sub from the moore bond is a loooooong way from the awesome jetpack in TB.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    The query is specifically to the Moore era. I think the gadgets in the Connery Bonds most of the time help serve the story, not undercut the character. that croc sub from the moore bond is a loooooong way from the awesome jetpack in TB.

    I'm not so sure - both illogical and completely cheesy - even if the Jetpack did actually work how did Bond infiltrate the place with it? Did he silently fly it, in except of course it makes a noise similar in volume to a Boeing 747 taking a dump after a particularly hot vindaloo, or is he supposed to have stealthily shinned up the drainpipe with it on his back and stashed it for later?
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    I strongly dislike DAF, yet I think the faked fingerprints were actually ok and one of the best gadgets of that era.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    The jetpack was an actual working vehicle, there's a short doc on it on the TB Blu-ray.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 314</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Q's gadgets made the screenwriters lazy during the later Moore years.</b></font>

    Would certainly agree with this thesis. It's like the plot is written around the gadgets instead of the story being the driving force!
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    Bingo.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    The jetpack was an actual working vehicle, there's a short doc on it on the TB Blu-ray.
    That wasn't @TheWizardOfIce's point. How was it planted? Why not just run for it? Why the water jets in a car with no water tanks? How did the water jets AIM??? Forget the Aston Martin with the ejector seat in GF- that was pure science by comparison; TB's PTS was the true beginning of the 'Gadget era'.
  • doubleohdaddoubleohdad
    Posts: 1,146
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    doubleohdad wrote: »
    My point was that the jetpack worked- and the croc sub was outright silly.
    MY croc sub works just fine. YOU need to redefine silly, you silly.
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