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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    Craigs 007 is more like a Terminator unstoppable and unkillable, I do look back at the older Bonds who did sell it a wee bit better than Craig in my humble opinion.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I would say that Brosnan - who destroyed vast camps of enemies with little more than a machine gun (GE, TND, DAD) was more the unstoppable Terminator.
    Craig was poisoned in CR and saved by Vesper seconds before he died. He was shot by friendly fire in SF and saved again by an unknown woman (we presume).

    Possibly the least 'unkillable' of the Bonds - although it has to be said Bond has to remain unkillable if the series needs to continue ;-).

    Roger Moore's Bond was probably the one who they gave little thought to placing in true danger. His Bond was there to make the stunts look good. His Bond was a Superman-Bond as the films of the late 70s and early 80s were all about the stunts and action sequences and little about the realistic consequences of these stunts.

  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    pachazo wrote: »
    I agree with the thesis, at least partially. I would just like to add that sometimes watching Superman Bond from TB and TSWLM is an absolute treat and can be a thrill ride all it's own. This is mostly due to the excellent performances given by Connery and Moore in those films. Since that is no longer in vogue, I doubt we'll see another portrayal of the character like that any time soon. Which is fine because Craig doesn't want to go that route anyway. I wouldn't be opposed to the next actor doing so though. Providing they can give a good enough performance, of course.

    I haven't seen TSWLM in a while but in TB Bond is far from infallible. Various villains but him in a tight spot and he barely escapes with his life.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Overall I think I'd agree with this thesis with the exception of the GE tank chase.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    That's not even a debate, it's a fact.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I think it is fair to call Craig's Bond unkillable. He takes a bullet/shrapnel to the shoulder, gets shot, falls from the train, lands awkwardly in the water and still survives.

    I prefer to see Bond not portrayed as superhuman.
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    Murdock wrote: »
    I prefer a fine balance of the two. A flawed character who is also a seasoned professional without the angst bogging him down.

    Agreed. 'Superhuman' removes all tension but we all go to Bond movies for larger than life adventure.
    Definitely a balance for me
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Sure, Bond recognizing the chemical formula for rare plants on sight and disarming a nuclear bomb when there's an entire crew who works on that nuclear submarine standing around is absurd. I feel things go too far the other way when M says things like she wishes Bond wasn't the best poker player at MI6. I want Bond to be the first man M turns to. When M says "I'll put my best man on it" there shouldn't be any doubt as to who that is.
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    Sark wrote: »
    Sure, Bond recognizing the chemical formula for rare plants on sight and disarming a nuclear bomb when there's an entire crew who works on that nuclear submarine standing around is absurd.
    lol @Sark that reminds me of an episode of Batman: The Animated Series, where they find a folded up piece of paper that once had a key wrapped up in it, and Batman looked at the imprint, yes THE IMPRINT, that the key left on the paper and instantly recognized exactly where the key worked!! Even as a little kid I cried out 'OH COME ON'
    He literally takes one quick glance at it and is like 'Gotham National Airport.'

    I think it goes without saying any nonsense like that should be kept far far away from Bond!
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    I remembered another one: in OHMSS Bond for some reason knows enough about a species of butterfly not just to say its unusually small, but he knows the scientific name as well!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I like when Bond is a bit of a smartass and knows a bit about what's going on. It makes him more interesting and makes you wonder what he's into after hours without seeing it. It leaves more to the imagination.
  • SarkSark Guangdong, PRC
    Posts: 1,138
    Being extremely well-informed, particularly about things relevant to his occupation (for example I didn't think it was absurd for him to recognize the Stromburg Shipping Line logo, or to know he had a marine research place in Corsica...or Sardinia) is one thing. The examples mentioned are before are just being silly. I much prefer when Connery says "Well I don't know much about cryptography sir, but a lektor could decode their top secrets."
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited June 2015 Posts: 4,399
    hmm... that is tough.. i like both.. i think there were moments of vulnerability even during his most super human of outings - you bring up TSWLM as an example of one of his super human outings - yet there is also that lovely small bit of Bond telling Anya that he did indeed kill her lover... to me that scene did pack a punch, and for that time i think it showed a human/vulnerable side to Bond, but also how cold and callus he can be as well..... i like all the Bonds, but i tend to gravitate more to Dalton and Craig because they really made Bond human, with flaws, and one that certainly isn't perfect - but when push comes to shove, will get the job done no matter what it takes.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Sark wrote: »
    I remembered another one: in OHMSS Bond for some reason knows enough about a species of butterfly not just to say its unusually small, but he knows the scientific name as well!

    "Unusually small for a Nymphalis Polychloros"

    Lighten up, man. How can you not love this line?

    To quote David Brent, 'It's not a trick is it, knowledge?"
  • patbpatb
    Posts: 4,617
    The creators of Superman had to introduce Kryptonite into the story as they knew that all characters need weaknesses to be interesting. All cinema goers are human, we all have weaknesses, we need to empathise with our heros and seeing them overcome their weaknesses makes them even more of a hero. For me, it's Bonds psychological weaknesses that are much more interesting as they help to make his character deeper rather than a dodgy shoulder from jumping from a hot air balloon.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    RC7 wrote: »
    Sark wrote: »
    I remembered another one: in OHMSS Bond for some reason knows enough about a species of butterfly not just to say its unusually small, but he knows the scientific name as well!

    "Unusually small for a Nymphalis Polychloros"

    Lighten up, man. How can you not love this line?

    To quote David Brent, 'It's not a trick is it, knowledge?"

    One of the things that I loved most about Bond as I was growing up was how ridiculously clever he was about everything including butterflies, exotic fish, wine, sherry, caviar etc. An expert in any sporting discipline you care to mention, seducer, gambler, mountaineer, mimic and on and on.

    The very fact he knows everything and can do everything is part of what makes Bond Bond.

    James Bond is and should be a cultural, sporting and intellectual Superman
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2015 Posts: 23,883
    I loved Bond's intelligence and worldly knowledge when younger too, and I still do. I aspire to be more like him in this respect actually, while understanding that it's near impossible.

    So I don't have a problem with him being a smarty pants. I don't have a problem with his all too knowing arrogance (the early scenes with Vesper in CR in the train, in Montenegro, in the hotel and in the Casino itself are vintage Bond and some of the best scenes in that film):

    e.g. "Then you're an idiot..................... I said you're a bloody idiot. Look in my eyes. I can beat this man". After losing disgracefully. Classic.

    However, that's different from his human fallability, errors in judgement, and failure to see the big picture, which were also clearly on display in CR.

    I think Moore brought this out nicely too as Bond, because he was quite self-deprecating, so even though he was a 'know it all' he papered over his mistakes nicely with his humour. As a viewer, I picked up on this. I agree too on the TSWLM scene with Anya - one of the best scenes from Moore's Bond and a sign of his vulnerability, as well his reaction to the mention of Tracy in Egypt.......understated, but just enough to show there is a human under all that self-confidence and bravado.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    Sark wrote: »
    Sure, Bond recognizing the chemical formula for rare plants on sight and disarming a nuclear bomb when there's an entire crew who works on that nuclear submarine standing around is absurd. I feel things go too far the other way when M says things like she wishes Bond wasn't the best poker player at MI6. I want Bond to be the first man M turns to. When M says "I'll put my best man on it" there shouldn't be any doubt as to who that is.

    But the best does mean perfect. I love that line in CR: M knows Bond is the best for the job. She also knows that it comes with a price as Bond can be reckless and overconfident.

    Also let's not forget that part of M's job is keep the agents on their toe to avoid complacency. They can't be overpraised.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    I think a few things get all mixed up in this discussion. First off there's the notion of a 'super human' Bond, upon a few here apparently also count the, well let's not call them smart-ass but, let's say, educated remarks Bond himself makes. I think there's little super human in there. The man is supposed to be educated and, as a spy, should know a little about just about anything. I always read his remark in OHMSS more as a chance to show off he picked up some info on butterflies. It's more by chance he knows this species. Hell, even I know the names of some butterflies, and would show off my knowledge if I had the chance. There's little super human in there.

    Beeing super human is beeing able to always make the right decision, be super strong and, all in all, invulnerable.

    Someone said Bond is like that in TB. I disagree. He makes mistakes with Fiona, loses Paula, gets shot (thankfully only a superficial wound), can't stay undetected at palmyra. I have no doubt there's more. Oh wait, thanks to Domino he's still there, as 'she's glad' she shot Largo.

    All in all Bond should be, imo, a very strong, intelligent gentleman. He's intelligent, but no genius, he's strong, but not undefeatable, has stamina, but does run out. So he's far from beeing a 'super Bond'.

    Indeed, Roger Moore's Bond got less of this and his Bond knew Moore (sorry). But that was his day and age, tongue in cheek Bond. Perhaps it is OTT these days, but Bond was not infallible. Personally, I like the more realistic incarnation. The closer to Ian's creation the better. And he was certainly no super human character.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Agree w/thesis. At least more interesting. Imagine Moore with the QOS hairdo?
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    Agree w/thesis. At least more interesting. Imagine Moore with the QOS hairdo?
    talking of super human Bond...

  • fanbond123fanbond123
    edited June 2015 Posts: 1,661
    Imagine Moore with the QOS hairdo?

    Your wish is granted...

    25ap5z5.jpg

    Hair taken from this image:

    Daniel-Craig-in-Quantum-Of-Solace-daniel-craig-25723650-500-210.jpg
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    And there's this:
    https://s.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/FIT_TO_WIDTH-w1200/6b236903b5921181b5269eae0390d04163ab56a1.jpg
  • JWESTBROOKJWESTBROOK
    Posts: 5,745
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    And there's this:
    https://s.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/FIT_TO_WIDTH-w1200/6b236903b5921181b5269eae0390d04163ab56a1.jpg

    Damn, Roger looks good.

  • PerdoggPerdogg
    Posts: 686
    I don't care about a "super bond" I just do not want a sulking, depressed, metrosexual Bond who cannot utter his lines.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I don't care about a "super bond" I just do not want a sulking, depressed, metrosexual Bond who cannot utter his lines.

    I agree. Have we seen this though? I can't recall....
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I don't care about a "super bond" I just do not want a sulking, depressed, metrosexual Bond who cannot utter his lines.

    I agree. Have we seen this though? I can't recall....

    We have, in Bond 17-20.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,124
    bondjames wrote: »
    Perdogg wrote: »
    I don't care about a "super bond" I just do not want a sulking, depressed, metrosexual Bond who cannot utter his lines.

    I agree. Have we seen this though? I can't recall....

    Me neither.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited June 2015 Posts: 13,978
    Depressed is not something I think of when I think of Brosnan's Bond, even shortly after he was supposed to have lost a someone he once loved. Or sulking for that matter, i don't remember him doing any of that. And I never had any problems with his delivery, other than "Barnd, James... Barnd". The slight American twang might have been annoying, but at least I could still understand Brosnan.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    He was depressed and sulking deep inside for being such a lousy Bond. Sorry, I have much sympathy for the man, and enjoy him as an actor in various films, but Bond? He was useless and suited to his useless films.
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