The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    "He certainly left with his tails between his legs", hardly the worst in the series (I like it, actually).

    "I thought Christmas only comes once a year", now there's the worst.

    True, the dialogue between Christmas and Bond is mostly not that funny. She's one of the stupidest Bond girls anyway.

    I hate how Wint is depicted as a homosexual in his final scene. He obviously likes what Bond does to him and then this final sentence. Just wrong.
    Bruce Glover played Wint with such fine moments during the film, but this last scene didn't do him justice at all.
    That's how I feel about it. I can understand if that doesn't bother someone else.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,556
    RE: Hamilton's "henchman coda" scenes were redundant.

    Is this 'henchman coda' exclusive to Hamilton's films or does it encompass other henchpeople such as Stamper, Necros etc. Either way, action-wise, it makes sense to have the henchman reappear after the villain dies, saving the best fight for last.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    I hate how Wint is depicted as a homosexual in his final scene. He obviously likes what Bond does to him and then this final sentence.

    But Wint and Kidd are depicted as being homosexual in previous scenes in DAF: "Miss Case seems quite attractive. For a lady", then the disapproving look from Mr Wint.

    I really don't see Mr Wint "enjoying" what he does to him, rather he looks to be in great pain. What makes you think that he actually enjoys it? There's nothing depicted he to show that he does...

    I can understand people not like this scene due to it being a little silly (as is the rest of DAF), but these criticisms don't make sense to me...
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    But Wint and Kidd are depicted as being homosexual in previous scenes in DAF

    Of course, I didn't phrase this right. They are clearly gay. I didn't like the way Bruce Glover acted in the last scene, it was more like seeing a clown getting one into his family jewels. Didn't fit the subtlety in many scenes that Glover had throughout the movie.

    If he looks like being in great pain, then why is this scene so hilariously funny. Be it as it may, that scene is just wrong in many ways in my opinion.
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    He can be in pain, and the scene can still be funny (as it's probably intended to be)- they are not mutually exclusive.

    The only probably I have with this scene is Tiffany's "eek!" and incompotence- do something you silly woman!

    24v34er.jpg
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 335</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Tonally, LTK could never have worked with a John Barry score.</b></font>

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Of course it could. If anything the film would have been elevated by it. I like the Kamen score, but Barry is Barry.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Of course it could. If anything the film would have been elevated by it. I like the Kamen score, but Barry is Barry.

    Agree 200%. The idea that a Barry score would not simply add untold depth and enjoyment to a Bond movie is utterly absurd.

    I also think Kamen did a reasonable (inoffensive) job, but the film would have been taken to a whole new level had Barry scored it.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Well we can't really know for sure. I would say yes, but his more Symphonic approach he used for Moore's era and TLD wouldn't have worked for LTK. Kamen's score is pretty good. In fact some parts do sound like something Barry would have done. But unless there was a lost Barry score to compare it to, there's really know way to answer the question.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I'm gonna bet he one to say that, no, a Barry score wouldn't have worked for LTK. The Kamen score in LTK fit every scene like a glove, something I've seen a couple (not too many) Barry scores fail to do.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Everything works better with a John Barry score.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    I listen a lot to Barry's scores and I can honestly say that by the end of the 80s he had lost the "edge" that was needed for LTK. Don't get me wrong - John Barry will always be my number 1 composer! The man was a genius. And he wrote two of my favourite scores in the 90s; the Specialist and Dances With Wolves. They were romantic, sensual and could still handle some darker moments. But LTK was a violent film, a brutal film, with a Die Hard / Miami Vice Bond who goes totally 'rage' during the climax. The film opens with a drug lord beating up his girlfriend and continues along that path. We see Bond in a sleazy bar with exotic dancers and thugs straight out of a Friday night cop series. And by the end of the film, Bond sets the villain on fire. Seeing where Barry was back in '89, he'd have given us jazz, some brass, trumpets and strings. But LTK needed dark percussion, Latin flavours, a full and thunderous orchestra... I completely agree with @Agent007391. Kamen's score caught the intentions of the film exceptionally well.

    I give Barry major props for his TLD score. It's one of my favourite Bond scores of all time! But the synthesizer thing reportedly wasn't to his liking, yet it was more or less demanded he went that way. The Bond music simply had to be spiced up along with the films themselves. Remember AVTAK? The action is brought loud and wild but basically with a fanfare. The age of dissonant sounds, electronics and experimental film music had already set in. Brad Fiedel's score from The Terminator, Horner's score for Aliens, Kamen's score for Die Hard, Poledouris' score for RoboCop... Williams was still going strong, Zimmer had just done his first couple of gigs, Silvestri had come in big with Back To The Future, and so on. Even Goldsmith kept looking for more modern touches. Yet Barry remained conservative and from the point of view of such films as Dances With Wolves or Indecent Proposal, that's a good thing. But at one point someone hired him for Mercury Rising. Whatever action they attempted with that film was virtually killed by Barry's refusal or inability to provide a modern action thriller with the music it needed for its action scenes. Still jazz and some old school suspense music which is always melodic and beautiful, but not necessarily adequate any more.

    I'm afraid that had Barry done LTK, it would have resulted in a dichotomy of sorts. I wonder if any of his music could ever have been compatible at that point with what EON were trying to pull off. No doubt his score would have been heavenly beautiful, a greater composition than Kamen's, but what would Barry have given us when Krest's head is about to explode, when Bond drives a truck through a sea of fire, when Lupe gets whipped by Sanchez, ... ?

    My comments apply to GE too. Say what you want about Serra's score, it got the tone of the film right for the most part. His dark electronics playing in the background as Onatopp and Ourumov take over Severnaya, worked. What would Barry have done? A jazzy cue like his suspense music for The Specialist the year before? A high-tech film like GE demanded a cold, metallic, cyber-age score. Whether you like the result or not as a stand-alone score, Serra's music nevertheless fitted the film IMO. I'd be intrigued to hear what Barry might have come up with for the film but seeing what kind of scores he delivered in those days, I think romance, jazz, flutes, strings and trumpets. I do not think loud bangs, dark underscores and modern twists on the Bond Theme.

    In conclusion, I think John Barry is the greatest composer that ever lived, but I'm afraid he wouldn't have lived up to our late 80s and 90s expectations of Bond music. I'm not saying Kamen, Serra or Arnold pleased us all, but I think they were much more "of the time" with their scores.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I agree with you @DarthDimi, I thought by the 90's Barry was losing his touch and becoming repetitive within his own style. It just wouldn't have worked for LTK.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited August 2015 Posts: 13,978
    I love Kamen's score, it makes the film unique in the cannon. Don't get me wrong, John Barry is a true legend of his profession, but I wouldn't change Kamen's score.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    @Murdock and @MajorDSmythe, indeed, gentlemen. That's how I feel too. And that 9 minute composition is excellent for the film.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The Living Daylights is my favourite Barry score.
    Objectively I can see that his masterpiece was OHMSS.

    I'm sure Barry would have done a marvelous job with Licence To Kill.

    Indeed I find LTK one of the weaker soundtracks, which doesn't mean I don't like it.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited August 2015 Posts: 7,314
    I have never been impressed with Kamen's score. It's serviceable but something just seems out of place to me. Some people don't like the TSWLM, FYEO or GE scores because they don't appreciate that style of music in a Bond film. Well, that's exactly how I feel about LTK. It just screams Die Hard and Lethal Weapon to me and only reinforces the cheap vibe that the film has going for it. So, in that respect, maybe it does fit perfectly. Perhaps LTK is a cheap thrill found late at night in the Barrelhead Bar. Maybe Barry's elegance would have been too sophisticated for the proceedings?

    Personally, I would love to have heard Barry's LTK score. The man was a master of atmosphere. I'm certain he could have found the right tone. Can you imagine something along the lines of FRWL? A little pared down compared to the rest but full of suspense and intrigue. Wouldn't that have worked beautifully? Anyway, regardless of the direction that might have been taken, I certainly don't believe that Barry was washed up by '89.

    On a side note, I do enjoy Kamen's work outside of Bond. He clearly was a talented guy. I have no issues with anyone enjoying his LTK score. I just think it's another matter altogether to suggest that Barry couldn't have been just as (if not more) effective.
  • Posts: 486
    I'm gonna bet he one to say that, no, a Barry score wouldn't have worked for LTK. The Kamen score in LTK fit every scene like a glove, something I've seen a couple (not too many) Barry scores fail to do.

    Back in 1989 I detested the score on buying the soundtrack ahead of seeing the film but hindsight, and some terrible scores from Arnold, have really made me appreciate Kamen's score.

    Yes there's not the lush melodies and repeated themes of Barry but Kamen does give us a score which as you say compliments each scene. He was definitely writing tonally appropriate mood music and Barry as good as he is may have done a score which would have distracted us too much.

    That said I do think a Barry score may have made it more acceptable to some fans and feel more of a traditional Bond film given that the rest of the film was somewhat of a departure.
  • Posts: 1,407
    If LTK had a great director (love the film but Glen was not a great director) and that director worked with Barry on creating a score, then it would have been amazing. I agree that by the 80s, Barry's scores, while still really good, started sounding the same. I think he went out on a high note for TLD and he probably could have done a good one for LTK, but Kamen's score remains my favorite "one off" composer score for a Bond film.
  • ThomasCrown76ThomasCrown76 Augusta, ks
    Posts: 757
    Kamen did roadhouse...another movie where Dalton got into a bar fight;)
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    Strongly disagree. A Barry score makes everything better. Made 60% of the 80's films better. Improved the lesser liked films. Makes the Bond films feel like one big family.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    I agree with Dimi and Murdock here. Back in 1989, when I bought the soundtrack (vinyl, not on CD), I was at first disappointed to learn, that Kamen replaed Barry for that soundtrack. I also was a bit taken aback by violence of the movie, and all that splatty and gory stuff. But I also feel, that Kamen's score for LTK was perfect and fitting. LTK in many ways is a completely different Bond movie, deliberately different from its predesccors. SWe will never know, what Barry would have done for this movie, but we will never know. Oh, and yes, John Barry was and is still one of the great movie composers of the 20th century, with the likes of John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith, as well as the emerging and late James Horner.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Exactly. Barry may have had the occasionAl off day but I would risk that because there's always a chance (a high chance) that it will be a work of genius.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I'm almost embarrassed to ask because I think I should know this:

    Why didn't Barry do the LTK score. And why didn't he do any scores for Bond anymore?
    He was active up to 2001!
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I believe Barry was having throat surgery in 1989.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    If I recall from reading the amazing book on the James Bond Music, it almost always had something to do with other engagements. But yes, I think @Murdock is correct. Also, I believe that in the 90s, they were definitely looking for another sound and Barry himself may have decided at some point that he had enough of Bond.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I was always under the impression that Barry not scoring any further Bonds, was to do with A Ha. Something about them making demands, forced Barry to sever his connection to the series.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,159
    Too bad then. I"ve always loved TLD as a song. I wish the collaboration had been more pleasant for all involved.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    I was always under the impression that Barry not scoring any further Bonds, was to do with A Ha. Something about them making demands, forced Barry to sever his connection to the series.

    I always thought I had read, that Barry moved to the US for tax reason and got into some unpleasant tax matters.
    In 1970 he moved to California and became a tax exile. Indeed, despite his success, he owed large sums to the Inland Revenue, and shortly afterwards his company was liquidated with debts of £365,000. Seven years later Mr Justice Templeman accused him of deliberately emigrating to avoid paying the £134,000 due to the taxman, and it was not until the late 1980s that the situation was resolved and Barry was able to return to England.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/8292892/John-Barry.html

    About the "fight with a-ha", Pal Waaktaar said in an interview:
    We are currently celebrating the release of the 20th James Bond film. How
    exciting was it being involved with Bond when you did the soundtrack for ”The
    Living Daylights” in 1987 and did you get to meet the great 007 himself?
    Depends who you see as the great 007 - we did meet Timothy Dalton.
    Personally, I thought he was a case of bad casting. He’s too good a dramatic actor.
    I saw him in a play with his (even better) wife Vanessa Redgrave in London.
    To see him afterwards as Bond was just a little ludicrous..
    I liked Roger Moore better; his style, the way he moved those eyebrows up and
    down…now, that’s acting!
    Well, at least he brought humour to it - never a bad idea.
    The whole Bond experience was a rich meal.
    This ”Bond-family” around the Broccolis (according to Barbara Broccoli her great
    grandfather genetically produced the first Broccoli vegetable on earth – she spoon-fed us all with it as some stupid ritual on the set) all behaving like royalty, and of course
    our ”legendary” fight with John Barry left a rather unpleasant aftertaste.
    Apparently he compared us to Hitler-jugend in a Belgian newspaper interview.
    We became big in Belgium after that

    http://magnef.org/bibliography/hotrod-interview.pdf

    If the thorat surgery was the reason for Barry not to score LTK, there was no Bond moviie for six years. Maybe in 1995 h was too busy to score GE, or the producers and the director wanted Eric Serra to do the job.

    And Babs and Mike offered him to score TND, but he declined and suggested David Arnold for the job. And maybe then BB and MGW were happy with Arnold. Who knows? And Barry did not score that many movies afterwards, the last being ENIGMA? (not sure though)...
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    And, yes, I also liked the a-ha song. Funnily I just watched TLD tonight. And it was a pity Dalton did not get the chance to do 1-2 more Bond movies, but this was the due to the financial problems with MGM (the first one)...
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