The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Kennon wrote:
    Well the point is, the only reason the role was recast after DAD was because EON 'went too far' and that the film wasn't a success to the critics and to many people... if Brosnan's 4th in 2002 was a success at the box office, for the critics and the fans, there is no doubt that Brosnan would have done a 5th, even a 6th outing.

    Had DAD never existed and the new 'Bond 20' film was a much more well-recieved by the critics and the fans, Craig would never have been Bond, and It's almost certain that Bond #6 would debute this year... without DAD, Brosnan could have equalled Moore's 7 films.

    No, don't really think so. There is a craze about "youth" in Hollywood and Brosnan wouldn't have survived after a DAD+1. One more film perhaps but not two or three.

    What I means is if EON had done a different film instead of DAD, which would be more well received by the critics and the fans, Brosnan wouldn't have left. What reason could EON have to change actors if Brosnan's 4th film was a big success to the critics, fans and box office ?

  • Posts: 297
    Kennon wrote:
    Well the point is, the only reason the role was recast after DAD was because EON 'went too far' and that the film wasn't a success to the critics and to many people... if Brosnan's 4th in 2002 was a success at the box office, for the critics and the fans, there is no doubt that Brosnan would have done a 5th, even a 6th outing.

    Had DAD never existed and the new 'Bond 20' film was a much more well-recieved by the critics and the fans, Craig would never have been Bond, and It's almost certain that Bond #6 would debute this year... without DAD, Brosnan could have equalled Moore's 7 films.

    No, don't really think so. There is a craze about "youth" in Hollywood and Brosnan wouldn't have survived after a DAD+1. One more film perhaps but not two or three.

    What I means is if EON had done a different film instead of DAD, which would be more well received by the critics and the fans, Brosnan wouldn't have left. What reason could EON have to change actors if Brosnan's 4th film was a big success to the critics, fans and box office ?

    I suppose there would have been pressure by the moneymen to cast a younger actor anyway. Either that or a young sidekick, makes me sick to think of it. Even a super-duper successful DAD would have gone only so far in securing Brosnan's job with EON. Could be that younger=better assumption is already in play with Craig now. I don't remember seeing so many whathisnamethis/whatshisnamethat-for-next-Bond back in Moore's tenure. Now it looks as if the job is vacant every month. Sure, some of that's due to the rags pushing newcomers like hell. But some of it's maybe due to the publicity branch testing the waters.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited February 2012 Posts: 6,288
    Debatable.

    Brosnan's films still did well. He brought the series out of mothballs. Unlike OHMSS or LTK, DAD was not a flop at the box office. And he hadn't aged as much as Moore had by OP and AVTAK. The closest analogy is to MR, but this time the producers decided to scrap their main actor along with their approach.

    On the other hand, M makes reference to the "world having changed" while Brosnan's Bond was in North Korea. And while they supposedly made changes to DAD after 9/11, the fact was that his lighter approach was not going to fly when the world was on edge about terrorism.

    So on balance, I think it was time for Brosnan to go.
  • Posts: 1,407
    He had another film in him, but I'm very happy the way things turned out with Craig
  • Posts: 12,526
    Maybe? If there had not been a 3 year gap between TWINE and DAD? They could also have toned it back down easily enough like they did for Roger Moore with FYEO after MR.
    But i am not disappointed with how things have turned out! Loving DC's tenure as 007! Hope to see him in atleast a couple more after Skyfall!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    Getafix wrote:
    Although I think DUD is the worst film (any film) ever made
    It's funny, because that's the same feeling I have for Casino Royale.

    We get it alright. Don't know how it's possible to think that or how your hate of Babs has elevated you to such hate that you dislike CR outright, but if you think it's the worst film ever made you must not have seen many.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Wow, thanks guys for these most entertaining contributions to the debate thread. Keep it up!
  • Posts: 7,653
    I would have seen his FYEO after his MR, it would have been an excellent way to say goodbye to one of the 007's who did good for the franchise.
    At least it would have lessened upon the moaning about his last movie.

    Yes, Pierce should have done one more toned down spy-orientated 007 movie.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    We get it alright. Don't know how it's possible to think that or how your hate of Babs has elevated you to such hate that you dislike CR outright, but if you think it's the worst film ever made you must not have seen many.
    No, I've seen many bad films, but CR was the only one I had a hard time getting through. And it seems the only reason you are peeved about my opinions is because you love the film. If I was directing my hate at another Bond film, such as DAD, you probably wouldn't be annoyed by me.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    We get it alright. Don't know how it's possible to think that or how your hate of Babs has elevated you to such hate that you dislike CR outright, but if you think it's the worst film ever made you must not have seen many.
    No, I've seen many bad films, but CR was the only one I had a hard time getting through. And it seems the only reason you are peeved about my opinions is because you love the film. If I was directing my hate at another Bond film, such as DAD, you probably wouldn't be annoyed by me.

    Just out of interest what does make DAD better than Royale?
  • Posts: 401
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Just out of interest what does make DAD better than Royale?
    John Cleese is in it as Q. Other than that, not much. I also like the Ice Palace as a setting.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Just out of interest what does make DAD better than Royale?
    John Cleese is in it as Q. Other than that, not much. I also like the Ice Palace as a setting.

    So breathtakingly groundbreaking.... 8-|
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Just out of interest what does make DAD better than Royale?
    John Cleese is in it as Q. Other than that, not much. I also like the Ice Palace as a setting.

    So breathtakingly groundbreaking.... 8-|
    Because Casino Royale wasn't just following in Batman's footsteps with the "gritty reboot" idea or anything. James Bond hasn't been trendsetting since the 1960's. Also, what do you think was so "groundbreaking" about Casino Royale? That they were able to stray so far from James Bond and still call it a Bond film?
  • Posts: 12,526
    Who cares about trendsetting? The movie world is ruthless and highly competitive! Bond was the landmark introduction that inspired most film series interms of action and escapism.

    Trendsetting has already been achieved a long time ago like you have said. The only person Bond is competing with is himself!
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond was the landmark introduction that inspired most film series interms of action and escapism.
    There was no escapism in Casino Royale. Actually, let me rephrase that; there was no good escapism in Casino Royale. All it allowed me to escape to was to the adventures of a Metrosexual Aryan who breaks into embassies and his bosses flat with no real consequences.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Just out of interest what does make DAD better than Royale?
    John Cleese is in it as Q. Other than that, not much. I also like the Ice Palace as a setting.

    So breathtakingly groundbreaking.... 8-|
    Because Casino Royale wasn't just following in Batman's footsteps with the "gritty reboot" idea or anything. James Bond hasn't been trendsetting since the 1960's.

    Oh please. We'll compare Bourne to Bond all day, but now we're throwing Batman into the mix to try and fail at servicing an opinion on CR. You may not like CR, but at least it made advances in the character of Bond instead of having years of ruined potential that was the Brosnan era, culminating in a final shotgun in the mouth suicide in the form of DAD. Some don't like a serious Bond, and that's fine, but the times we are in demand it. People praise Sean's films only to hate on Dan's, when Dan's era is a throwback to Sean, the closest we've had since Tim left. CR and QoS explore Bond and his physical and emotional pain, while DAD had a chance to toy with Bond psychologically affected by his 14 months of torture that he should have been able to escape from anyway! The film had the chance to see Bond freeze up on the job from his impaired psyche, but no no no. The Brosnan era never branched out or took risks up until then, so why bloody start now?!
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond was the landmark introduction that inspired most film series interms of action and escapism.
    There was no escapism in Casino Royale. Actually, let me rephrase that; there was no good escapism in Casino Royale. All it allowed me to escape to was to the adventures of a Metrosexual Aryan who breaks into embassies and his bosses flat with no real consequences.

    Great, who wants to take a turn explaining that CR is a rookie start for Bond, who is turning into the Bond that we know and love?! I'm sick of trying to get people to open their eyes. No, the full fledged Bond wouldn't do what he did in the start of CR, that's the point. His mistakes are turning into lessons and he is growing to learn from them.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    Some don't like a serious Bond, and that's fine
    I like my Bond serious. Timothy Dalton is my favorite, and I wouldn't call his Bond "light-hearted".
    but at least it made advances in the character of Bond
    I actually did like that it tried to give him some sort of depth, but the way it did it was bad. I also liked that QoS tried to have some continuity with CR.
    His mistakes are turning into lessons and he is growing to learn from them.
    Yeah, but he was just promoted. Why would M not have him demoted or killed for breaking into her flat, and breaking into an embassy? Also, 2 kills seems a bit low for promotion to 00 agent status.

  • Posts: 12,526
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond was the landmark introduction that inspired most film series interms of action and escapism.
    There was no escapism in Casino Royale. Actually, let me rephrase that; there was no good escapism in Casino Royale. All it allowed me to escape to was to the adventures of a Metrosexual Aryan who breaks into embassies and his bosses flat with no real consequences.

    Bond and villain jumping from crane to crane not escapism? Oh it is as that's why they were wired up for safety! Its all great adventure fun. Sometimes its pushed too far to the unbelievable and then there are the films that are alot grittier! But its all fictional escapism.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond and villain jumping from crane to crane not escapism?
    But it wasn't interesting; it was just stupid. I wasn't entertained by that scene at all.

  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond was the landmark introduction that inspired most film series interms of action and escapism.
    There was no escapism in Casino Royale. Actually, let me rephrase that; there was no good escapism in Casino Royale. All it allowed me to escape to was to the adventures of a Metrosexual Aryan who breaks into embassies and his bosses flat with no real consequences.

    Great, who wants to take a turn explaining that CR is a rookie start for Bond, who is turning into the Bond that we know and love?! I'm sick of trying to get people to open their eyes. No, the full fledged Bond wouldn't do what he did in the start of CR, that's the point. His mistakes are turning into lessons and he is growing to learn from them.

    I think what annoys people is not so much that but how Daniel Craig in CR is compared to Fleming's Bond. Personally, I can't see that character breaking into M's flat.

    For me Royale got that balance between the serious and the fun. Quantum fell short.

    Anyway, back on topic.
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond and villain jumping from crane to crane not escapism?
    But it wasn't interesting; it was just stupid. I wasn't entertained by that scene at all.

    I liked that scene. Yeah it was silly (esp Bond in the bulldozer) but it was fun - much like the tank chase in GE.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Bond and villain jumping from crane to crane not escapism?
    But it wasn't interesting; it was just stupid. I wasn't entertained by that scene at all.

    Are you suggesting that the ice berg para surfing was not stupid in DAD? That scene destroyed that film for me sadly.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    RogueAgent wrote:
    Are you suggesting that the ice berg para surfing was not stupid in DAD? That scene destroyed that film for me sadly.
    That was stupid as well. I'm not saying that was any better.

  • Posts: 12,526
    lol! Love a healthy debate! No harm in agreeing to disagree! :D
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I liked that scene. Yeah it was silly (esp Bond in the bulldozer) but it was fun - much like the tank chase in GE.
    I actually liked the tank chase, one of the better parts of GE. Even if it did have giant product placements in the middle of it. That was another thing that annoyed me about CR; the obvious product placement. Every phone an Ericsson, every laptop a VAIO.

  • Posts: 11,189
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I liked that scene. Yeah it was silly (esp Bond in the bulldozer) but it was fun - much like the tank chase in GE.
    I actually liked the tank chase, one of the better parts of GE. Even if it did have giant product placements in the middle of it. That was another thing that annoyed me about CR; the obvious product placement.

    In fairness thats been an ongoing thing - especially since TND.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    Some don't like a serious Bond, and that's fine
    I like my Bond serious. Timothy Dalton is my favorite, and I wouldn't call his Bond "light-hearted".
    but at least it made advances in the character of Bond
    I actually did like that it tried to give him some sort of depth, but the way it did it was bad. I also liked that QoS tried to have some continuity with CR.
    His mistakes are turning into lessons and he is growing to learn from them.
    Yeah, but he was just promoted. Why would M not have him demoted or killed for breaking into her flat, and breaking into an embassy? Also, 2 kills seems a bit low for promotion to 00 agent status.

    2 kills a bit low? Sorry, but have you ever killed someone in the line of duty? Have you ever felt the recoil of a gun entering someone's flesh or felt the guilt of it all afterwards? It wouldn't be that easy of a requirement at all in my opinion.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Dr_Metz wrote:
    Some don't like a serious Bond, and that's fine
    I like my Bond serious. Timothy Dalton is my favorite, and I wouldn't call his Bond "light-hearted".
    but at least it made advances in the character of Bond
    I actually did like that it tried to give him some sort of depth, but the way it did it was bad. I also liked that QoS tried to have some continuity with CR.
    His mistakes are turning into lessons and he is growing to learn from them.
    Yeah, but he was just promoted. Why would M not have him demoted or killed for breaking into her flat, and breaking into an embassy? Also, 2 kills seems a bit low for promotion to 00 agent status.

    2 kills a bit low? Sorry, but have you ever killed someone in the line of duty? Have you ever felt the recoil of a gun entering someone's flesh or felt the guilt of it all afterwards? It wouldn't be that easy of a requirement at all in my opinion.

    From what I remember it was 2 kills in the book aswell. The messy one was actually the one that happened second aswell.
  • DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 030</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7> <b>Whatever the reason to let Brosnan go after DAD, he still had at least one more Bond film in him.</b></font>

    He did indeed have one more left him in that could of been feasibly made but it would simply be a variation of having Connery in 1973 or Moore in 1987 to an extent, point being, Brosnan had come on somewhat since his previous outing at the end of the last century and I just think didn't seem appropriate as 007 anymore, definite signs of ageing, and it certainly didn't help being a major part in a picture that was an unmitigated disaster although Brosnan can only take a slice of the blame for that

    It's all water under the bridge now but Craig came in, got the part and it was refreshing to get Bond back to how it should be, tough, serious etc, Craig was in his late 30s at the time and made for a very feasible 007, something I would of had trouble accepting had Brosnan remained any longer

    Whether he was pushed or jumped, the fact remains it was for the good of the series

  • Posts: 401
    Whether he was pushed or jumped, the fact remains it was for the good of the series
    It's not a fact just because you say it is.

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