The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,133
    Kerim wrote:
    I think it was OK for CR, but not for QOS. Throw in DAD and the last three gunbarrels are at the bottom of the best gunbarrel sequence list.

    Let's bring a tradition gunbarrel sequence back for SF.

    Agree with all of this.
    For CR it worked, though no reason to do the same for QOS, but then to have it at the end was just pointless.
    DAD, didn't bother me as it has some, but please let's have the gun barrel at the start of SF.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I agree with Benny. The CGI bullet I'll happily swallow. At least DAD opens with the GB. In CR, I can accept it. Somehow the "Bond's origin story" concept dictates it. We get the GB immediately following the PTS, so it's actually functional in some way. As for QOS, there was no reason at all.
  • Posts: 278
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I agree with Benny. The CGI bullet I'll happily swallow. At least DAD opens with the GB. In CR, I can accept it. Somehow the "Bond's origin story" concept dictates it. We get the GB immediately following the PTS, so it's actually functional in some way. As for QOS, there was no reason at all.

    Well there is a reason..... It has us all talking about it!!!?

    Good or bad, it's there and it is a GB after all!!!! Granted a little late and a tad to quick, I'm sure DC & co will do us proud on SkyFall..!!!?

    ;)
  • It worked great In CR. It was okay in QOS but it needs to come back at the beginning of Skyfall.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 035</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The invisible car in DAD isn't all that bad.</b></font>
  • Posts: 401
    It really isn't. Bond hiding behind it for cover, however, is. I agree with the thesis. Also, although I'm late for the last one, I agree with thesis 34 as well.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I know that the mods will clamp down on me for threatening violence here but I would cheerfully pluck out the eyeballs of anyone who agrees with this thesis and crush them underfoot like grapes and then they can enjoy everything being invisible for the rest of their lives.

    And I'm not even joking here - its the single most embarassing and poorly judged decision in the history of the series. Closely followed by the parasurfing CGI and Jinx.
    There is simply no defence for this whatsoever. Bond tech is supposed to be 5 mins in the future - yet we're 10 years on and this is the best theyve managed to do:



    And its still rubbish compared to what DAD pretends as credible.

    Having said that if you suspend disbelief (a big ask) its one the less embarassinly executed elements of the film.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 401
    I know that the mods will clamp down on me for threatening violence here but I would cheerfully pluck out the eyeballs of anyone who agrees with this thesis and crush them underfoot like grapes and then they can enjoy everything being invisible for the rest of their lives.

    And I'm not even joking here - its the single most embarassing and poorly judged decision in the history of the series. Closely followed by the parasurfing CGI and Jinx.
    There is simply no defence for this whatsoever. Bond tech is supposed to be 5 mins in the future - yet we're 10 years on and this is the best theyve managed to do:



    And its still rubbish compared to what DAD pretends as credible.

    Having said that if you suspend disbelief (a big ask) its one the less embarassinly executed elements of the film.
    It's just a movie. Roger Moore went into space, that isn't exactly "5 minutes into the future". Bond films were always fantasy.

  • AgentJamesBond007AgentJamesBond007 Vesper’s grave
    edited February 2012 Posts: 2,632
    Disagree. The invisible car was the single worst thing that happened to this series since Bond at the Moon or Lazenby's casting (I like the guy but he seemed immature) maybe even worst!
  • Posts: 401
    Disagree. The invisible car was the single worst thing that happened to this series since the Moon
    What

  • Posts: 278
    Disagree. ....or Lazenby's casting (I like the guy but he seemed immature) maybe even worst!

    Lazenby was young and somewhat a flash harry, but he played his part in one of the best in the series...!?
    And that film would not be "that film" without him & most of all Peter Hunt & co!!!

    As for the car in DAD, it was to far!! But some how suited PB's over the top Bond hamming up in that poorer Bond film, along with that CGI moment!! #-o
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dr_Metz

    Err well seeing as he went on a space shuttle which I think youll find was actually built and was supposed to launch before MR that is pretty much using technology 5 mins into the future. Theres a suspension of disbelief necessary that Drax can send up so many and the US has one waiting to go on the launch pad but thats well within the allowable parameters of 'its just a film'.

    The invisible car crosses the line and is emabarrassing way beyond anything in MR (and I'm including the pigeon in that).

    In any event your logic is deeply flawed. 'The MR space battle was over the top and contravenes the laws of physics on numerous occasions' is hardly a valid defence that DADs invisible car is not an embarrasment. I'd agree that the final MR battle goes too far but how in any way does this vindicate the atrocities of DAD?

    Thats like saying in court 'Yeah I murdered 15 women but so did Peter Sutcliffe.' Youre still going down I'm afraid.











  • Posts: 7,653
    I didn't mind the invisible car that much, it was tool no more. In QoS there is a boatrace that ends in a way that is never completely clear to anybody. Wish they made that part invisible as it added nothing to this movie except to more confusion. ;)

    The invisible car was a bit of fun and was not the cause for failure for DAD, it financially never was. DAD was like MR a 007 tale stretched to its limit of possibility, and both get a lot of flak. Neither which is right imho.

    The worst thing that happened to the series is starting a movie that wasn't ready for production, did not even have a "finished" script and there was no script doctor around to clean it up. This was attempted to be hidden by some arty-farty direction and camera work. It could have been so much better in the hands of a decent action director. ANd yet there is a need to point at DAD.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Again you miss the point.

    I agree that the boat chase in QOS is a shambles (as are most of the action scenes in the film) but that is due to poor execution (due to the director, the editing and the rushed script). There is a huge difference between poor execution and a poor concept - which is what the invisible car is.

    The actual execution of the invisible car isnt badly done, its just the original idea which stinks in the first place.

    Similarly the parasurfing on the tsunami is an epic concept which if filmed for real would be probably the best stunt in the series. The fact that it was impossible to film for real though meant it shouldve been scrapped instead of carrying on regardless with 1940s special effects.

    And I fail to see how cringing into your cinema seat scared that someone can tell you are a Bond fan whilst the rest of the audience openly laughs counts as 'a bit of fun' as you call it.
  • Posts: 1,817
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Not a mjor flaw, in fact I'm not that bothered by it as a 'twice only' sort of thing, it's works and sets the not Bond film, films apart from the rest.
    0013 wrote:
    there is no logical nor artistical reason for its placing at the end.

    It's to show, that Bond is now Bond and that we're ready to move onto the proper character as we knew him. The end of the 'origins' if you will.

    I believed that Bond Begins ended with CR. So the real problem could be my interpretation or the story of QOS if it stills is an origins chapter.

    The invisible car... it's not the worst thing of DAD but it's pretty stupid. It's not the main reason for its failure but neither it helped to improve the movie.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Yes it is. There's all there is to say for this one.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,425
    As noted, the invisible car is far from the worst thing about DUD. Madonna ranks much higher in the list of disastrous decisions that led to that major car crash of a movie.

    Frankly, you barely notice it.
  • Posts: 278
    SaintMark wrote:
    The worst thing that happened to the series is starting a movie that wasn't ready for production, did not even have a "finished" script and there was no script doctor around to clean it up. This was attempted to be hidden by some arty-farty direction and camera work. It could have been so much better in the hands of a decent action director. ANd yet there is a need to point at DAD.

    Well I don't believe that was the case, the script was there and it was being polished as production commenced!! Marc Forster and his crew had prepped just about all and everything and filming started, the writers strike came along and that meant NP,RB & most of all Paul Haggis could not touch the screenplay at all!!
    So this is where the holes began to appear in the production, but hay!!!!! Its still a good romp of a Bond movie and along with MF "arty-farty" direction it hits many spots for me!?
    Love the Tosca part, and following gun fight!!
    No its a good-ish film and sits well in the series, better than DAD I believe!! ;)
  • Posts: 11,425
    MrEon wrote:
    SaintMark wrote:
    The worst thing that happened to the series is starting a movie that wasn't ready for production, did not even have a "finished" script and there was no script doctor around to clean it up. This was attempted to be hidden by some arty-farty direction and camera work. It could have been so much better in the hands of a decent action director. ANd yet there is a need to point at DAD.

    Well I don't believe that was the case, the script was there and it was being polished as production commenced!! Marc Forster and his crew had prepped just about all and everything and filming started, the writers strike came along and that meant NP,RB & most of all Paul Haggis could not touch the screenplay at all!!
    So this is where the holes began to appear in the production, but hay!!!!! Its still a good romp of a Bond movie and along with MF "arty-farty" direction it hits many spots for me!?
    Love the Tosca part, and following gun fight!!
    No its a good-ish film and sits well in the series, better than DAD I believe!! ;)

    Regarding your comments on QoS - exactamondo.

    Slightly less hectic editing and it would have been a very tidy little film. Even as it stands, it's not bad at all.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I still don't believe it's the worst thing in the film - that honour belongs to the windsurfing scene and I couldn't give a damn if the "concept" was good either. Watching it is still embarassing and it makes the GE freefall look like a work of genius in comparison (Ive actually not been too bothered by that sequence). At least with the invisible car we had a fairly entertaining scene introducing it. The Windsurfing scene was what made me crindge NOT the invisible car.

    I'm going to wait for Wizard to pounce. :-S

    One thing though, when Bond is following the goons in Iceland, why can't they hear the reving of the engine? The car may be invisible but he's only a few feet behind them.

    I knew this would be heated ;)
  • Posts: 278
    BAIN123 wrote:
    The Windsurfing scene was what made me crindge NOT the invisible car.

    I'm going to wait for Wizard to pounce.


    Windsurfing...... Not even Bond seems to be able to do that?!
    Spot on Sir...!!



    Wizard will get ya..... :))
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,425
    Parasailing or kite surfing, surely?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I still don't believe it's the worst thing in the film - that honour belongs to the windsurfing scene and I couldn't give a damn if the "concept" was good either. Watching it is still embarassing and it makes the GE freefall look like a work of genius in comparison (Ive actually not been too bothered by that sequence). At least with the invisible car we had a fairly entertaining scene introducing it. The Windsurfing scene was what made me crindge NOT the invisible car.

    I'm going to wait for Wizard to pounce. :-S

    One thing though, when Bond is following the goons in Iceland, why can't they hear the reving of the engine? The car may be invisible but he's only a few feet behind them.

    I knew this would be heated ;)

    Fear not - youre absolutely right. The parasurfing is, remarkably, more embarassing than the invisible car. The moment John Cleese came on with it I thought I could not be more ashamed to be a Bond fan but hey presto - EON managed to surpass it about half an hour later.

    Add to these two epic shark jumps Madonna, Jinx, a last half hour composed entirely of CGI, Jinx, a Robocop suit that shoots out elecricity like the Emperor in ROTJ, Jinx, Mr Kil and Jinx and is it any wonder DAD ended up such an abortion of a film?

    And to think the other day I got into a right slanging match on another thread who propsed the ludicrous hypothesis that DAD was better than OHMSS. Yes you read that right - such people do exist. It takes all sorts I suppose but really
  • Posts: 1,310
    Gotta disagree here. I know it's just a movie and all, but this gadget never, ever sat right with me. Every time I watch DAD I know this scene is coming up and I think, "Maybe the car isn't all that bad..." but once it appears I remember why I hated it.

    Oh, and Brozza hiding behind it when it's invisible. Sigh.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kxF371gMSro/SQ0TLKzGZ3I/AAAAAAAAFG0/0rRRB9M3jdo/s400/invisible+not.jpg
  • Disagree. It was a absolute joke in a joke of a movie.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 035</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The invisible car in DAD isn't all that bad.</b></font>

    It never really bothered me. I was far more bothered by the CGI tsunami, the videogame finale ripoff of a similar and vastly superior scene in TLD, TMI during Brosnan and Miss Berry's love scene and 98% of the Jinx character's dialogue than the invisible Aston Martin.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 7,653
    Again you miss the point.

    I agree that the boat chase in QOS is a shambles (as are most of the action scenes in the film) but that is due to poor execution (due to the director, the editing and the rushed script). There is a huge difference between poor execution and a poor concept - which is what the invisible car is.

    The actual execution of the invisible car isnt badly done, its just the original idea which stinks in the first place.

    Similarly the parasurfing on the tsunami is an epic concept which if filmed for real would be probably the best stunt in the series. The fact that it was impossible to film for real though meant it shouldve been scrapped instead of carrying on regardless with 1940s special effects.

    And I fail to see how cringing into your cinema seat scared that someone can tell you are a Bond fan whilst the rest of the audience openly laughs counts as 'a bit of fun' as you call it.

    You miss the point completely defining what a Bond fan should be and should like.

    The invisible car is a bit harmless fun, nothing more. As there have been many things in the franchise that have been skating the borders of believability. I love the submarine car as well.

    I agree on the parasurf on the Tsunami that was bargainbasement CGI, and should have scraped completely. Like the boatstunt from QoS, not even editing would make that understandable, same approuch. Lose it.

    Finaly a 007 movie is supposed to be fun, suspension of disbelieve. And that is what a 007 movie is at the end of the day brilliant entertainment and not something that would change my personal views. It is a bit of fun that has been entertaining for 50 years at the end of the year, I sincerely hope.
  • Posts: 12,526
    This is something that is being worked on! At the time i cringed and was a little embarrassed to see it happen in a Bond movie! So when the Ice berg surfing came along? i thought OMG! I also read at the time about the military developing this technology for tanks.

    So with some of the gadgets of the past at the time probably having the same effect on audiences of the time? Who knows in the future? But for this thesis? I would rather it did not happen.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2012 Posts: 9,117
    SaintMark wrote:
    Again you miss the point.

    I agree that the boat chase in QOS is a shambles (as are most of the action scenes in the film) but that is due to poor execution (due to the director, the editing and the rushed script). There is a huge difference between poor execution and a poor concept - which is what the invisible car is.

    The actual execution of the invisible car isnt badly done, its just the original idea which stinks in the first place.

    Similarly the parasurfing on the tsunami is an epic concept which if filmed for real would be probably the best stunt in the series. The fact that it was impossible to film for real though meant it shouldve been scrapped instead of carrying on regardless with 1940s special effects.

    And I fail to see how cringing into your cinema seat scared that someone can tell you are a Bond fan whilst the rest of the audience openly laughs counts as 'a bit of fun' as you call it.

    You miss the point completely defining what a Bond fan should be and should like.

    The invisible car is a bit harmless fun, nothing more. As there have been many things in the franchise that have been skating the borders of believability. I love the submarine car as well.

    I agree on the parasurf on the Tsunami that was bargainbasement CGI, and should have scraped completely. Like the boatstunt from QoS, not even editing would make that understandable, same approuch. Lose it.

    Finaly a 007 movie is supposed to be fun, suspension of disbelieve. And that is what a 007 movie is at the end of the day brilliant entertainment and not something that would change my personal views. It is a bit of fun that has been entertaining for 50 years at the end of the year, I sincerely hope.

    I would define a Bond fan as ‘someone who likes the character created by Ian Fleming’. Fleming himself defined Bond as ‘going wildly beyond the probable, not, I think, the possible.’
    Obviously as time has passed one has had to make concessions (OP for example – I’ll stomach the light hearted romp of the 1st half for the taut Cold War countdown of the 2nd) to keep the film series going but a line in the sand was crossed with DAD.

    The invisible car is indeed wildly beyond the possible as even today 10 years on the technology is nowhere near being as good as it is in the film. Contrast this with the space shuttles in MR for example which are merely ‘beyond the probable’ as the technology did exist (the space battle is a different story).

    You do raise an interesting point though with the submarine car as this never gets much flack yet is it technically possible? Doubtful to say the least, so why is it that the invisible car gets hammered whereas this is regarded as classic Bond?

    The reason I believe is that EON made the mistake of making the invisible car too invisible. What I mean by this is if they had had the adaptive camouflage so that the car just turned the colour of the background and made it difficult to see then it would have been fine – the trouble is when Bond hits the switch and you literally cant see it at all and you have ridiculous things like tyre tracks appearing in the snow.
    The submarine car for all it might not have been actually possible – it appears as though it is through some fine special effects and model work instead of just throwing CGI at it. I think if CGI had been available in 1977 and used to do the submarine car then it would have been slagged off just as much.

    However I would still take umbrage at your contention that 'it is just a bit of harmless fun'.
    When people next to you in the cinema are actually openly laughing at the series rather than with it, I would say that that is harmful both to the credibilty of the series and its future continuation. Its no coincidence that despite DADs healthy box office return, EON went back to Fleming for the next film because they realised down the DAD road madness lies.

    Ask a Star Wars fan if Jar Jar Binks 'is just harmless fun' and they'll probably chin you.

    The invisble car and the parasurf CGI are the Jar Jar Binks of Bond.


  • Posts: 7,653
    SaintMark wrote:
    Again you miss the point.

    I agree that the boat chase in QOS is a shambles (as are most of the action scenes in the film) but that is due to poor execution (due to the director, the editing and the rushed script). There is a huge difference between poor execution and a poor concept - which is what the invisible car is.

    The actual execution of the invisible car isnt badly done, its just the original idea which stinks in the first place.

    Similarly the parasurfing on the tsunami is an epic concept which if filmed for real would be probably the best stunt in the series. The fact that it was impossible to film for real though meant it shouldve been scrapped instead of carrying on regardless with 1940s special effects.

    And I fail to see how cringing into your cinema seat scared that someone can tell you are a Bond fan whilst the rest of the audience openly laughs counts as 'a bit of fun' as you call it.

    You miss the point completely defining what a Bond fan should be and should like.

    The invisible car is a bit harmless fun, nothing more. As there have been many things in the franchise that have been skating the borders of believability. I love the submarine car as well.

    I agree on the parasurf on the Tsunami that was bargainbasement CGI, and should have scraped completely. Like the boatstunt from QoS, not even editing would make that understandable, same approuch. Lose it.

    Finaly a 007 movie is supposed to be fun, suspension of disbelieve. And that is what a 007 movie is at the end of the day brilliant entertainment and not something that would change my personal views. It is a bit of fun that has been entertaining for 50 years at the end of the year, I sincerely hope.

    I would define a Bond fan as ‘someone who likes the character created by Ian Fleming’. Fleming himself defined Bond as ‘going wildly beyond the probable, not, I think, the possible.’
    Bond fans come in many guises. You have the books and the movies, both are very different beasts. Flemings Bond is bookversion and is not to be compared with the movies. The movie version as always been the one on the cutting edge of possible and somethings skating across by a mile. But still being able to convince the audiences and generaly entertain them. The elitist fan however feels that the movies would be best served by losing all that bagage and return to the roots. Which EON will never let happen as it would alienate the general audiences on the long run who see the 007 as escapism with class. As a fan of Fleming I enjoy the books, as a fan of the movies I enjoy most of them.

    Obviously as time has passed one has had to make concessions (OP for example – I’ll stomach the light hearted romp of the 1st half for the taut Cold War countdown of the 2nd) to keep the film series going but a line in the sand was crossed with DAD.
    DAD is the kneejerk reflex of people that call for a more serious Bond. WHen actually a Bourne franchise did just that and far more coherent, and too much shaky cam for my taste. QoS crossed for me a line in the sand far more as it copied another series and did not improve upon it. Once more they started with a product (happened before with LTK) and had to change halfway in the production and ended up with a far more unbalanced product as DAD will ever be. DAD was meant as a great adventure/action movie and did mostly that (I too detest the cheap CGI).

    The invisible car is indeed wildly beyond the possible as even today 10 years on the technology is nowhere near being as good as it is in the film. Contrast this with the space shuttles in MR for example which are merely ‘beyond the probable’ as the technology did exist (the space battle is a different story).
    The invisible car is not the worst thing from DAD it was the CGI but overall the movie was entertaining on level where the competition would wish they could operate. It had with Brosnan an iconic 007 that was marketing wise a very strong product. And he did very good for the franchise.

    You do raise an interesting point though with the submarine car as this never gets much flack yet is it technically possible? Doubtful to say the least, so why is it that the invisible car gets hammered whereas this is regarded as classic Bond?

    The reason I believe is that EON made the mistake of making the invisible car too invisible. What I mean by this is if they had had the adaptive camouflage so that the car just turned the colour of the background and made it difficult to see then it would have been fine – the trouble is when Bond hits the switch and you literally cant see it at all and you have ridiculous things like tyre tracks appearing in the snow.
    The submarine car for all it might not have been actually possible – it appears as though it is through some fine special effects and model work instead of just throwing CGI at it. I think if CGI had been available in 1977 and used to do the submarine car then it would have been slagged off just as much.
    The car gigs were both used very effectively and in a playfull way that the audiences accepted. That is also one of the great tricks the 007 movies have and is hard to copy.
    They entertained the audiences. If they really were thinking a lot of stuff in the 007 movies would be frowned upon.


    However I would still take umbrage at your contention that 'it is just a bit of harmless fun'.
    When people next to you in the cinema are actually openly laughing at the series rather than with it, I would say that that is harmful both to the credibilty of the series and its future continuation. Its no coincidence that despite DADs healthy box office return, EON went back to Fleming for the next film because they realised down the DAD road madness lies.
    The audiences have been laughing with the franchise for almost 50 years, lets hope they keep up doing that. The series has a lot of credibility period. Another QoS however would be far more hurtfull for the credibility. Even Craig has his doubts over that movie.

    Ask a Star Wars fan if Jar Jar Binks 'is just harmless fun' and they'll probably chin you.
    When speaking with SW fans about the prequels Jar Jar Binks is on the lists of annoyances but not even close to the top of such lists. In that aspect Jar Jar Binks is harmless fun. Had he been the worst thing the prequels would have been great.

    The invisible car and the parasurf CGI are the Jar Jar Binks of Bond.
    "A rather dramatic statement which is lacking in comparison imho."The Jar Jar Binks of Bond are the producers Wilson & Broccoli, at the ned of the day they are responsible for putting the end product on the screen the CGI or that unfinished mess called QoS. I do not mind waiting 4 years if the result is worth the wait. Last time was not a great credit to the franchise. Good that the previous movies are strong enough to remain credibly.


    Thank you for reading.
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