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You make some good, if slightly flawed points.
A Bond fan is surely someone who likes Flemings creation and films such as DN, FRWL,TB and OHMSS? That I can enjoy films like MR, GE and even to a certain extent DAD because they still contain enough elements of Flemings creation to engage my interest does not mean I wouldn’t prefer a return to pure Fleming.
The way I see it a Bond fan can come and enjoy these films up to a point. Your argument that by merely enjoying such films in their own right automatically makes you a Bond fan is dubious because for example the 2nd half of DAD has nothing to do with what I understand as Bond at all.
What you are saying is that any old tosh that provides 2 hours of mindless entertainment as long as it features a character called James Bond can be classed as a Bond film and if you like it you are a Bond fan. Well I beg to differ on that.
I agree with you that DAD delivered on what it appears to have set out to do – produce low rent popcorn entertainment that is moderately diverting for 2 hours. That it succeeded at such lofty ambitions may be enough for some but not for me. DAD is an exceptionally lazy (from a script perspective here – the technical execution by the crew is of the highest quality – well CGI wave apart!) cliché ticking exercise in mediocrity. Its barely better than a computer game plot.
Don’t get me wrong I enjoy DAD a lot more than most of the other blockbuster rubbish out there such as Transformers and Spiderman because it has enough Bondian elements (the PTS, Cuba before Jinx spoils it, a fine performance by Pierce who deserved better and was callously binned for mistakes made by others) but I am measuring it by Bond standards established over 50 years and when up against FRWL, OHMSS, TLD and CR it is pitiful.
The most tragic thing about DAD is that it was made to look an anachronism literally minutes after it came out, due in part to Bourne but largely due to the laziness of EON in churning out a by the numbers effort instead of trying to stay ahead of the curve which Harry and Cubby always attempted to do. DN, FRWL and OHMSS are still fresh and exciting decades on but DAD will forever be trapped in a timewarp bubble of CGI naffness. For the general public it ticked all the boxes of what a Bond film should be (just look at how many glowing reviews it got at the time) but if I valued the retarded publics opinion I’d spend my evenings watching X factor and The Only Way is f***ing Essex.
It is obvious you hate QOS and while it is deeply flawed and I certainly agree with your remark that they should have waited until the script was sorted, its still light years ahead of DAD. Ultimately however, much as my constant slating of DAD is entirely irrelevant to the thesis so is your frequent argument that DAD is better than QOS. We’re not here to discuss QOS at all and nor are we here to really discuss DAD as a whole.
The thesis stated that the invisible car is a disgrace (I’m paraphrasing) and I agree wholeheartedly with that. The fact that either of us may think QOS or the CGI wave are better or worse is not relevant to the thesis. Its basically a yes/no question – was the invisible car good or bad?
I say it was abysmal.
Its been a good debate but then youre always guaranteed to get a rise out of me when it comes to people trying to defend DAD.
I'm going to try and do the impossible, I'm going to try and defend DAD. After seeing a bit last night it does have some good - dare I say it - inspired scenes. Bond punching out the rude South African for instance then using his unconcious body to get onto the island before using it again to distract the doctors and quietly disabling the camera. Not a gaget in sight (other than the camera) This I can imagine in a more comperory Fleming-y novel.
Although history will always be kind to the dearly departed we mustn't put Cubby and Harry above criticism. They were very guilty of treading water and failing to judge the expectations of the public. TMWTGG was rushed and lazilly put together. The public recognised they were being short changed and when Harry left, Cubby took his time to strip and re-build Bond so that the money showed on the screen.
This is the problem with EON. The fact that they can make DAD, then next time make the brilliant CR, then screw up again with QoS. There is no consistency. This is why I'm apprehensive with Skyfall, because if the producers are capable of finding DAD acceptable as a film, it means we are never too far from another potential travesty that would have Fleming spinning in his grave.
Thin pickings Bain. Its more a fleeting moment than scene. The bit where he catches the gun off the MRI scanner is also inspired as is his use of the ejector seat. But these moments of inspiration add up to what? 5 minutes. How much screentime does Jinx alone monopolise to swing it back the other way?
Fair point.
QFT Willy.
I didn't say it was an easy task did I but I still like those moments. What about the scene with Bond and M in the tunnel or on the ship (I know the "I'm going after him" bit is overdone for the trailers but still, its a not a bad scene).
Also, the moment when Bond tries to kill Miranda is a nice touch along with Brozza's line "the coldest weapon of all".
The amusing thing about Bond being 5 minutes in the future and all that, one of the gadgets that has never been developed to actual practical use is the breathing device from TB. It appears to be something you imagine could find a way of becoming a real useable gadget, but no, apprantly not. And what does DAD manage to do? Re-introduce the one tiny Bond gadget that never became a realistic, practical gadget.
Actually when you break it down the only gripes I've got with it are Jinx, the car, the CGI crapfest and robocop suit. Take all that out and it would be a middling Bond film.
Could the Wizard be turned to the dark side?
Just think about Brozza springing to life on his deathbed in hospital, beating every guy in the room, after a 15 month torture ordeal, and faking his heart stopping, and this is just the beginning of the film, which is the strongest part of the movie.
If you dare, just stop and think about the last 30 minutes of the film, and I'm sure you'll be running to the toilet to vomit, in utter disgust at what the producers did to Fleming's creation.
<font color=blue size=7><b>Skyfall is a poor title for a Bond film, one reason being it's actually a Transformer.</b></font>
It's a neat title and far better than the other two none Fleming attempts.
There is always the possibility that I actually enjoy bond23 and accept its title. ;)
After QoS my hopes aren't that high at the moment, and I do not dare to anticipate the movie.
The thing about DAD is, at least it was a bond film. It was a very bad, terrible bond film, but you could still tell it was a bond film. QOS was worse because it took the dark, serious side way too far and the result was nothing like a bond film, it was more like bourne. Thats why I think QOS is worse, it would've been fine if it wasn't a bond film, but it is, and it should act like it. LTK had it right, it was dark and gritty but it was still a bond film.
"This is why I'm apprehensive with Skyfall, because if the producers are capable of finding DAD acceptable as a film, it means we are never too far from another potential travesty that would have Fleming spinning in his grave"
This is basically what I've been saying for months, about how it could be terrible and we shouldn't make up our minds until we've actually seen it this time. And I get attacked for it, people say I'm being "too negative". Well I had high hopes for QOS, and look how that turned out. But I also had high hopes for CR, and that turned out great. Like you said, there's no telling what could happen, so this time I'm not setting my hopes up.
In fact, had Fleming wrote a Bond novel called Skyfall, do you think the producers would have rejected it as a poor title for a film? Of course not. It would probably have been used as one of the first films in the 60's.
Thesis #36: Agree (but not for the Transformmers connnection
Well, in that case, there's hope for you liking this film @SaintMark. I think it may well be more than alright. My fingers are crossed, let's just see what happens...
If SF had come from the mind of Fleming, then yes, I would still dislike it.