The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,139
    QoS was a misstep. People flaunt the excuse of, oh living up to CR was always going to be difficult. I call bs on that. QoS could have been just as good or better but the fact is, the movie was handicapped by having an incomplete script, production was rushed and like Craig himself said the film was cobbled together. Forster tried some interesting things, some of which worked but the movie by no means a disaster took a winning formula as evidenced in CR and failed to run with it. I think Bond's mind set was handled in a subtle way considering what happened through out QoS and the moments where the focus was on Bond's emotional position were all too brief and infrequent. QoS' main strength was it's misdirection of Bond's emotional state. However, Forster's artistic approach in trying to bring a sense of tangibility to some of the metaphorical themes, subtext and the editing of the action scenes especially were a complete dissapointment. QoS was way too experimental for a director like Forster who lacked the experience on working on a film like this. I personally feel that Forster could make a much better Bond film than what he gave us and his talents were wasted on this movie that was pretty much a flop from the very start.
    So yes, QoS while not the nadir of the Bond series is definitely a step back from the superior CR.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 040</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>QOS was a step backwards after CR.</b></font>


    Absolutely agree. EON should've kept Martin Campbell as director and since they were planning in advance to have a two part storyline, they should have written QOS at the same time they wrote CR's script so it would've felt more like a cohesive 2nd half of the same story.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited February 2012 Posts: 13,355
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 040</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>QOS was a step backwards after CR.</b></font>


    Absolutely agree. EON should've kept Martin Campbell as director and since they were planning in advance to have a two part storyline, they should have written QOS at the same time they wrote CR's script so it would've felt more like a cohesive 2nd half of the same story.

    Campbell didn't want to do another and Quantum Of Solace was in the planning stages when Casino Royale was being filmed, so they did partly what you suggested, @PrinceKamalKhan.

    A better idea would have been the film them back-to-back at the same time, maybe.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I don't think CR was a high watermark of the series anyway, but yes, I think QOS managed to be even worse.

    Thesis #40: Agree[/quote]
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Quantum Of Solace was in the planning stages when Casino Royale was being filmed, so they did partly what you suggested, @PrinceKamalKhan.

    I thought I read that QOS's script was either delayed or quickly written due to a writer's strike in 2007 and/or 2008?
    Samuel001 wrote:
    A better idea would have been the film them back-to-back at the same time, maybe.

    Indeed. Like the Lord Of The Rings trilogy or Superman I and Superman II.

    For me, DN/FRWL, LALD/TMWTGG, TSWLM/MR, OP/AVTAK and TLD/LTK each feel more like parts 1 and 2 of the same story than CR/QOS did, largely due to each of these duos sharing the same director, and in TSWLM/MR's , OP/AVTAK's, and TLD/LTK's cases, the same production designer as well.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 7,653
    QoS was indeed a step backwards straight into a deep abyss.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Samuel001 wrote:
    Quantum Of Solace was in the planning stages when Casino Royale was being filmed, so they did partly what you suggested, @PrinceKamalKhan.

    I thought I read that QOS's script was either delayed or quickly written due to a writer's strike in 2007 and/or 2008?

    No, just not polished up to the usual standard. Check out the MI6 production diaries for all the information on this.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited February 2012 Posts: 4,515
    Quantum Of Solace is a step forwards in the meaning of production design & cinematopgraphy. The 60's style of things are great. Example is Fields chacter and the airport scene and the austria theater. Also i like Mathismore then in CR.

    QOS is a step forwards after DAD and CR and in production design and cinematopgraphy mabey also more forwards dan GE til Twine. I said this because the style remember me also a bit to LTK, Thunderball and FRWL. Stil i also think there be some flaws like the boat chase and the airplane scene.

    I hope people get there breath moment there claimd to be missing, i hope there wil a high step forwards (better then CR) in breath moments too in music/sound now the composer and music editor are replaced.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    M_Balje wrote:
    Quantum Of Solace is a step forwards in the meaning of production design & cinematopgraphy. The 60's style of things are great. Example is Fields chacter and the airport scene and the austria theater. Also i like Mathismore then in CR.

    QOS is a step forwards after DAD and CR and in production design and cinematopgraphy mabey also more forwards dan GE til Twine. I said this because the style remember me also a bit to LTK, Thunderball and FRWL. Stil i also think there be some flaws like the boat chase and the airplane scene.

    I hope people get there breath moment there claimd to be missing, i hope there wil a high step forwards (better then CR) in breath moments too in music/sound now the composer and music editor are replaced.

    Personally I feel that Fields in an example of exactly how underwhelming certain parts of this film are.
  • Posts: 1,856
    It didn't go backwards if just went off a vertical cliff it was next to.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I left the cinema underwhelmed so;

    Agree
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited February 2012 Posts: 2,629
    Absolutely. I'll give that CR was a tough act to follow. While it had good intentions of being a continuation, the pacing of QOS was way too fast and there really wasn't anything credible other than the Bond/M stroyline to make QOS comparable to CR.

    It wasn't a step backwards, it was a shove backwards.
  • Posts: 1,407
    I agree heavily with this thesis although I think QOS has aged well with time. I say that knowing that it is still the worse film by far. The last thing that should of happened with the film after CR is to get mixed reviews.
  • Why are we even having this debate

    Maybe there are one or two individuals on this planet who are genuinely under the impression that Quantum of Solace was a better Bond release than Royale and that's fair enough, but common sense dictates and it must be brought to attention that the former will forever be in the shadow of it's predecessor. Royale was a good film, a marked improvement on the abysmal Die Another Day and a 2008 release or whatever had big shoes to fill after Royale and never came close

    So QOS was a step backwards after Royale, if that's the case we may as well place Royale in North Carolina or something and start taking steps backwards (with Quantum of Solace) and keep going to a place it deserves, which may be getting ones feet wet in the Pacific Ocean

    Silly thesis

    8-|
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,425
    It is certainly not a step forwards from CR but nor is it a step backwards towards DAD.
    I would regard it more as a faltering step which left the series standing still. But for the shoddy editing and another months polish on the script it would have been a decent follow up to CR.

    The main objective for SF is it needs to make sure that it is definitely a step forwards from QOS. It may not reach the heights of CR (which lets be fair had a whole Fleming novel to plunder as material) but if it is a step back from or on a par with QOS then serious questions need to be asked.

    Agree. I actually 'enjoyed' QoS more in the cinema that CR, wihich I felt took itself a bit too seriously and was overlong. As you say, some less frenetic editing, a very slightly longer running time (which would have allowed poorly edited scenes to be made comprehensible) and a few extra months on the script and it could have been very good indeed. Some things don't feel right about it, but I'd argue that the good bits (e.g. the Tosca scene) are actually some of the best Bond sequences we've seen for a couple of decades.

    Actually, the more I think about it, if I'm being honest I was disappointed overall with CR. DC and EG were both excellent. The poker scenes were good and I liked Le Chiffre. But overall I didn't actually enjoy watching it very much. I felt it was a touch 'stodgy' and dull. Obviously after DUD it was a huge relief to have a decent actor playing Bond and for the film not to be utter rubbish.

    Where parts of CR felt like they went on too long (the slightly daft and irrelevant feeling airport chase sequence), QoS felt rushed. Having said that, I do think Forster was trying to capture something of the early movies - which are fast paced, tightly edited and leave you wanting more. Obviously for many people he didn't succeed in that, but I think it was a pretty good effort.

    On balance therefore I see QoS as a step forward from CR as (IMO) it demonstrated some characteristically Bondian flourishes, it was not over-long and it mostly looked fantastic. This is not meant as a criticism of CR so much as a call for QoS to be reassessed and judged a little more fairly than it has been up until now.

    Now, I am hoping Skyfall builds on QoS and CR to deliver the first thoroughly enjoyable Bond film since TLD.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited February 2012 Posts: 2,252
    Getafix wrote:
    ...it demonstrated some characteristically Bondian flourishes

    While there are some nice moments in it, I feel that half the film was spent trying to relive the old ones, most obvious being Fields death. At least DAD had half an excuse to pay tribute
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,425
    Fields and the 'tribute' to GF was lame. I enjoyed Felix's scenes though and thought there were nice touches throughout, just not the fully rounded, finished product I was hoping for.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    It's weird with Quantum. I kind of enjoyed it in the cinema back in 2008 though came out with the nagging feeling that "something was missing". Upon more viewings I grew more hostile towards it and, at one point, considered it the worst film of the lot. Now I've mellowed a bit but the film still leaves me underwhelmed.

    I will maintain though that some of the worse entries have more of a re-watch value - that includes DAD (I'm watching the Cuba sequence now actually).
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    BAIN123 wrote:
    It's weird with Quantum. I kind of enjoyed it in the cinema back in 2008 though came out with the nagging feeling that "something was missing". Upon more viewings I grew more hostile towards it and, at one point, considered it the worst film of the lot. Now I've mellowed a bit but the film still leaves me underwhelmed.

    I will maintain though that some of the worse entries have more of a re-watch value - that includes DAD (I'm watching the Cuba sequence now actually).

    I agree, when I don't want to sit through an entire movie, I like to watch certain scenes, and with QOS it's hard to find scenes that are enjoyable to rewatch. Sure, QOS has it's moments (teachers sabbatical) but they are 'quantum' in length. The only entire scene that is good to watch is the PTS and that's only because of the music and car sounds. Opera scene is also good but doesn't have that enjoyable feeling I get when watching other Bond scenes
  • Posts: 11,189
    w2bond wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    It's weird with Quantum. I kind of enjoyed it in the cinema back in 2008 though came out with the nagging feeling that "something was missing". Upon more viewings I grew more hostile towards it and, at one point, considered it the worst film of the lot. Now I've mellowed a bit but the film still leaves me underwhelmed.

    I will maintain though that some of the worse entries have more of a re-watch value - that includes DAD (I'm watching the Cuba sequence now actually).

    I agree, when I don't want to sit through an entire movie, I like to watch certain scenes, and with QOS it's hard to find scenes that are enjoyable to rewatch. Sure, QOS has it's moments (teachers sabbatical) but they are 'quantum' in length. The only entire scene that is good to watch is the PTS and that's only because of the music and car sounds. Opera scene is also good but doesn't have that enjoyable feeling I get when watching other Bond scenes

    Agreed @w2Bond. Another example I quote is TND. A weaker, shallower film than QoS? Probably - but it just has some more memorable, more entertaining scenes. Namely the sequence with Bond and Dr Kaulfman.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 041</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Pierce Brosnan was at his most Fleming-esque in DAD.</b></font>
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 041</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Pierce Brosnan was at his most Fleming-esque in DAD.</b></font>
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh that's a good one @Dimi! Oh...wait...You're serious?!?!?!?!
    D-I-S-A-G-R-E-E. It isn't good that I can't even think of a moment when he was Fleming-esque. I'll get back to you.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Perhaps he wasn't a "blunt instrument" but he was certainly at his most sleazy, least likeable and least PC in DAD. Traits associated with Fleming's character. I loved Pierce's "I don't give a sh*t"" attitude in that one.

    "No owls in Los Organos...nothing to see 'till the morning...not out there anyway" (rolls tongue)

    "I've beem missing the touch of a good woman" (while joyfully shagging for the first time in 14 months)

    I can imagine him thinking "I've got to say crap dialogue so I'm going to have fun with it"

    Fleming's character was hardly Mr Nice or Mr Subtle when it came to women. He virtuallly leers at Honey Rider when she comes out of the water (in the book she's naked) and forced himself on Patricia Feering in the TB book (also in the film).

    Also, Brosnan smoked (a big fat cuban cigar) in DAD, something he didn't do in his earlier films (and something we've yet to see Craig do).

    I'm not saying he's Fleming-esque all the way through (the last 40 minutes are about as far away as you can get) but nonetheless the Cuba sequence does provide some nice Fleming-y touches IMO. Calmly punching out a nemisis, shagging a woman he's just met, smoking the cuban cigar and drinking while waliking round Raoul's office.

    I'm probably going to get shot for this but I agree
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 041</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Pierce Brosnan was at his most Fleming-esque in DAD.</b></font>

    Agreed. It was a nice change after the whiny, metrosexual Brosnan Bond of TWINE. His cigar smoking, his "put your back into it, eh?" line to Miranda and his handling of Peaceful Fountains of Desire were refreshing returns to the pre-PC era of 007. DAD certainly contains my favorite Brosnan as Bond performance.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I think he was, though that isn't saying much really considering what he did before.
  • edited February 2012 Posts: 12,837
    Yes it was a huge step back, CR was great, one of the best, while QOS was the worst in the franchise. And before everybody reminds me that DAD happened, at least that was a bond film. It at least had a good first half, and even the awful 2nd half feels like a bond film. A bad bond film, but still a bond film. QOS feels more like a bad bourne rip-off than bond, the character is here in name only. Craig put on a decent performance but nowhere near as good as he was in CR, even he agrees that the film was bad.

    And brosnan was at his most flemming in DAD, yes. DAD would be great if they refilmed the iceland and finale scenes, and taken out the giant lazer and bad CGI.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I don't think Brosnan ever exuded any kind of literary Bond qualities in his films. He may have had his decent scenes like killing Kauffman and waiting for Paris, but hardly what i'd call literary Bond-esque.

    Thesis #41: Dissgree

  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Brosnan was much more Flemingesque in DAD than Craig in CR & QOS. Pierce was phenomal in DAD, a brilliant performance. 10/10.

    Agree with thesis #41.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    I myself disagree. I still think of GE as Brosnan's best performance. I love his line delivery and how he walks. Yeah sure, DAD was a step-up from TWINE. His forced anger in that film and his 'he knew exactly where to huuuurt me' always annoys me. Truly that wasn't entirely Pierce's fault: he was dealt poor script material in the first place. But I enjoyed him better in DAD. That said, I still see more flaws in his DAD performance versus his GE performance. It may once more be a matter of script. The lines simply weren't as good. The scenes weren't as good.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Whilst I wouldn’t say that Bond in DAD is particularly Fleming-esque (although in the early cuba scenes there are moments) this is certainly Pierces most assured performance in the role and I really feel sorry for him that when he was on top of his game, the scriptwriters, producers and director were nowhere near and it was their mistakes that ultimately denied him another crack at the job he clearly loved doing.

    Whoever is to blame for DAD its certainly not Pierce and I always feel a sense of pity for him when he surfs the tsunami and really does his best to sell it when the director must have been shouting in his ear ‘Come on Pierce love theres a tsunami right on your heels. I know its only green screen at the moment but trust me this is going to look spectacular once we put the CGI in.’
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