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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I too feel (a bit) bad for Pierce in the sense that he had to defend a film that he probably knew, deep down, was poor. He had to big it up and say how great it was and how it was going to be one of the best.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    And that's precisely why I have more respect for the man than many folks here. I think Pierce could have shined more as Bond, provided someone had actually given him strong material to work with.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I will always have some love for Pierce but I emphasise "a bit" bad. He still made a lot of $$$ from Bond and is widely regarded as one of the best. If it wasn't for Bond he'd be nothing. I'm not going to feel TOO sorry for him - even if he was my childhood hero.

    I feel worse for Dalton in many ways.

    Nonetheless IMO there were plenty of small moments where Pierce DID shine - even if most of his films weren't that great.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    TheWizardOfIce wrote:
    it was their mistakes that ultimately denied him another crack at the job he clearly loved doing.

    ’

    That's exactly why I feel that had Pierce slimmed down and done one more (good) film before paving the way for Daniel Craig he'd be better remembered by fans.

    I know one can't excuse the comments he's alledged to have made in interviews but nonetheless he wasn't soley to blame and is now regarded as a scapegoat in many ways.

    Apologies for the double post.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    I have no real thoughts on that really? Which i guess is an answer? He had good and bad moments! I think GE was his best performance altogether. And moments in his other movies. I just felt the final movie let him down through no fault of his own.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    RogueAgent wrote:
    I have no real thoughts on that really? Which i guess is an answer? He had good and bad moments! I think GE was his best performance altogether. And moments in his other movies. I just felt the final movie let him down through no fault of his own.

    Its funny. I love GE but I now wonder if its his weakest performance. He's charismatic but and gets some good lines but you can see in his eyes he's nervous. Also he purses his lips together quite a lot - something he doesn't do in his subsequent films.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    BAIN123 wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    I have no real thoughts on that really? Which i guess is an answer? He had good and bad moments! I think GE was his best performance altogether. And moments in his other movies. I just felt the final movie let him down through no fault of his own.

    Its funny. I love GE but I now wonder if its his weakest performance. He's charismatic but and gets some good lines but you can see in his eyes he's nervous. Also he purses his lips together quite a lot - something he doesn't do in his subsequent films.

    To be fair i would purse my lips up too if i was opposite Famke Jannsen and Isabella Scorupco!!!! ;)
  • KennonKennon
    Posts: 297
    No, can't see much literary qualities in Brosnan's last. Not really his fault, too much distance between screen and page to bring a lot of Fleming's Bond to the game. Brosnan is relaxed and at ease in this one, perhaps a bit much for the story. But Fleming's Bond still seems more present in GE for my money.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Kennon wrote:
    No, can't see much literary qualities in Brosnan's last. Not really his fault, too much distance between screen and page to bring a lot of Fleming's Bond to the game. Brosnan is relaxed and at ease in this one, perhaps a bit much for the story. But Fleming's Bond still seems more present in GE for my money.

    May of course have something to do with the Cold War story. But hey, I agree. ;-)
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    As I said before I think Brozza is probably at his least "PC" in DAD.
  • VirageVirage
    Posts: 1,856
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I myself disagree. I still think of GE as Brosnan's best performance. I love his line delivery and how he walks. Yeah sure, DAD was a step-up from TWINE. His forced anger in that film and his 'he knew exactly where to huuuurt me' always annoys me. Truly that wasn't entirely Pierce's fault: he was dealt poor script material in the first place. But I enjoyed him better in DAD. That said, I still see more flaws in his DAD performance versus his GE performance. It may once more be a matter of script. The lines simply weren't as good. The scenes weren't as good.

    Agreed.
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    Posts: 1,407
    DAD ranks near the bottom for me but Brosnan was at his best in that film. I could argue that there was a lot of Fleming. The smoking in Cuba, picking up Jinx, the cold detachment. Too bad the rest of the film couldn't keep up with his performance
  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    Posts: 1,778
    Disagree. He was still very campy at times. And then there's the movie itself. I'd probably give it to GE.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondbat007 wrote:
    DAD ranks near the bottom for me but Brosnan was at his best in that film. I could argue that there was a lot of Fleming. The smoking in Cuba, picking up Jinx, the cold detachment. Too bad the rest of the film couldn't keep up with his performance

    In regard to the picking-up-Jinx scene. The dialogue was hilariously terrible but the idea of Bond sleeping with someone he's just met doesn't seem too removed from Fleming.
  • bondbat007bondbat007
    Posts: 1,407
    BAIN123 wrote:
    bondbat007 wrote:
    DAD ranks near the bottom for me but Brosnan was at his best in that film. I could argue that there was a lot of Fleming. The smoking in Cuba, picking up Jinx, the cold detachment. Too bad the rest of the film couldn't keep up with his performance

    In regard to the picking-up-Jinx scene. The dialogue was hilariously terrible but the idea of Bond sleeping with someone he's just met doesn't seem too removed from Fleming.

    That's the point I was trying to make. You're right, the dialogue was terrible but to be fair, Brosnan did his best. But the whole point of the scene of Bond sleeping with somebody he just met and HOW he did it (offering her a drink, telling her it's too strong for her, lying about his occupation) that's very Fleming in my own opinion.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I like the part when he's in his hotel room and calmly orders Mr Chang and Peaceful Fountains to leave.

    "Do it...now get out...unless you really want to give me a massage". That's pure Bond IMO and the way Brozza delivers it is spot on.

    I suspect with the Jinx scene Brozza didn't give a damn. He knew it was stupid so just thought f**k it...I'm going to have some fun".
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,287
    MajorDSmythe wrote:
    I don't think Brosnan ever exuded any kind of literary Bond qualities in his films. He may have had his decent scenes like killing Kauffman and waiting for Paris, but hardly what i'd call literary Bond-esque.

    Thesis #41: Dissgree

    Disagree with the thesis, and agree generally with this post. I loathe TND but these are Brosnan's most Flemingesque moments for me, when he plays Bond as human and not as a superman.

  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2012 Posts: 11,189
    echo wrote:
    MajorDSmythe wrote:
    I don't think Brosnan ever exuded any kind of literary Bond qualities in his films. He may have had his decent scenes like killing Kauffman and waiting for Paris, but hardly what i'd call literary Bond-esque.

    Thesis #41: Dissgree

    Disagree with the thesis, and agree generally with this post. I loathe TND but these are Brosnan's most Flemingesque moments for me, when he plays Bond as human and not as a superman.

    That applies far more to the first part of the film. In the second he's just running around with machine guns.
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    These questions are descending into farce with all due respect

    Quantum of Solace a better release than Royale ?, Brosnan at his most Fleming like in Die Another Day ? , what next, Irma Bunt a better babe than Jane Seymour ?

    Don't get me wrong, Die Another Day is not the worst film since time began, it may not even be the worst Bond film, it's merely that the sum total was, for the most part at least, an unmitigated mess and Yes, Brosnan must take his share of the responsibilites even if it wasn't all his doing. Can not, and will not, agree to the thesis that Brosnan was at his most Fleming like for Die Another Day, that may well fit in with The World Is Not Enough, I've always said Mr Brosnan comes closest on that occasion
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Baltimore_007 wrote:
    These questions are descending into farce with all due respect

    Quantum of Solace a better release than Royale ?, Brosnan at his most Fleming like in Die Another Day ?

    Actually, the previous thesis suggested that QOS was a step down from CR. As for the most recent one, stirring up the nest by throwing in some controversy means interesting replies. I fail to see the problem TBH. ;-)
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    I'd say he was at his most Flemingesque in GoldenEye, but GE was really written with Dalton in mind.

    I'm still going to go with GE, but of the three remaining, PB's portrayal of Bond in DAD was closer to Fleming (by default) than was the action hero of TND or the metrosexual of TWINE.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I think in GE he was perhaps a bit too likeable to replicate Fleming's character.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 042</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>The Bond - Bibi moments in FYEO were mostly played for comedy and thus weren't distracting at all.</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    They looked pretty serious to me and were more there to show Bond can resist some girls, I believe.
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    I think it was more Roger Moore probably saying she is far to young for Bond to sleep with? And seeing the age gap i reckon Roger got his way! Probably felt very uncomfortable how it would appear on screen? Let alone filming it?
  • SJK91SJK91
    Posts: 1,310
    Eh. Some scenes kinda worked ('I'll buy you an ice cream' always gets me), but I never cared for the fact that she showed up at the end of the film again.

    This is a tough one, but I'm going to disagree on the fact that she took away from an already meandering finale...
  • Baltimore_007Baltimore_007
    Posts: 5,634
    If Moore wasn't so old in 1981 it may have worked with another actress to a degree

    How old was Johnson at the time anyway, late 20s perhaps, some find her annoying but I thought she was actually quite cute

    Point being, the scenes with Moore were clearly done for humor purposes, 'put your clothes on a I'll buy you an ice', I didn't have a problem with them, they added some light hearted moments on an otherwise serious (in very short supply at the time) Bond adventure
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited February 2012 Posts: 24,173
    People, I'll be out till Monday next week. Go ahead and debate thesis 042 but I'm keeping this thing frozen for a few days starting... now. :)
  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    edited February 2012 Posts: 1,778
    I agree. It showed us that Bond had indeed been aging over the years. It was also interesting to see him actually turn down sex for once.

    And @Baltimore_007 I believe Lynn Holly Johnson was only 22 at the time. While Moore was 53. Pretty creepy if you ask me. But then again Caroline Bouquete was only 23. That biggest age gap between Bond actor and Bond girl in the series. That's why I respected EON alot for casting Maud Adams in Octopussy. She was much more age appropriate for the middle-aged Moore and IMO Moore's most memorable leading lady.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,287
    Agree. I liked seeing Bond turn her down.
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