The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • Have to agree. It's one of the pitfalls of AVTAK. Still an enjoyable film however.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 080</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Roger Moore's car kick in FYEO was just as effective as anything Dalton ever did.</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    It's on par I think. The first two 80's films are a good precursor to Dalton's films in their style I feel.
  • Posts: 12,526
    Compared to LTK i would have to disagree. However? It does highlight probably one of Roger Moore's most coldest moments which i thought he did brilliantly! I just wished they had put more of those types of moments and material into Roger's 007 movies.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 080</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Roger Moore's car kick in FYEO was just as effective as anything Dalton ever did.</b></font>

    It's fine but with Dalton it would have even been more effective. Just as the comedic/fantasy elements of the series worked stronger with Moore.

  • Posts: 4,813
    Thesis 080:

    I disagree in this case. I do love the scene and it is very bad-ass........ for Roger. If he was only like that more often! But as for the debate, think about all the darker things Dalton did as Bond-- LTK especially:

    * 'You earned it- you keep it' *Wham* Shark food!
    * 'Don't you want to know why?' (then engulfs Sanchez in flames)

    These just off the top of my head, I have a hard time picturing Moore doing. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to see Roger be a bit more 'killer' as Bond and he definitely had it in him-- but for the debate's sake, I don't think the 'car kick' was just as effective as anything Dalton did... it's just the closest he got, that's all
  • edited April 2012 Posts: 12,837
    080- disagree It's a great moment and Moore does it well but Dalton was just better as a darker, more serious Bond. @Master_Dahark has already said it best, it wasn't just as effective, just the closest Moore got.
  • Posts: 7,653
    Disagree, most people talk about the comical side of the RM years but in most of Moore's movie were various dark moments that showed the assassin in his version of 007. When in TSWLM his opposite talks about his past he turns cold on her, very effective and impressive. Roger Moore did show his darkside several times and his dark side is more effective that anything Dalton ever showed. Dalton is always grumpy so the difference is not always clear.
    Roger moore showed more variation, and comedy is a very difficult medium and Moore excelled there as well.
    The car kicking in FYEO was not unexpected but seemed to please some folks.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I could never buy Moore in the serious moments. Kicking the Mercedes off the cliff was possibly the biggest example of Moore trying to be tough but failing.


    Thesis 80: Disagree. Leave the tough stuff to Bonds that know what they're doing.
  • edited April 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I could never buy Moore in the serious moments. Kicking the Mercedes off the cliff was possibly the biggest example of Moore trying to be tough but failing.


    Thesis 80: Disagree. Leave the tough stuff to Bonds that know what they're doing.

    I think that was one of the better examples of a "tougher Moore". It felt more appropriate for his Bond than the Andrea-slapping incident in GG which went against his reputation as a playboy.

    I think I agree with thesis actually. Moore acts it well and doesn't even need to raise his voice.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think that was one of the better examples of a "tougher Moore". It felt more appropriate for his Bond than the Andrea-slapping incident in GG which went against his reputation as a playboy.

    That's the problem I have. There is no such thing as the tougher Moore. He was natural at his souffle light Bond, anytime he begins to step out of his comfort zone, I start to cringe. And don't get me started on his fights, Moore moved worse in his fights than the Tin Man from The Wizard Of Oz.
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I think that was one of the better examples of a "tougher Moore". It felt more appropriate for his Bond than the Andrea-slapping incident in GG which went against his reputation as a playboy.

    That's the problem I have. There is no such thing as the tougher Moore. He was natural at his souffle light Bond, anytime he begins to step out of his comfort zone, I start to cringe. And don't get me started on his fights, Moore moved worse in his fights than the Tin Man from The Wizard Of Oz.

    I'll give you the fights lol

    Seriously, in Eyes it worked because Loque was blantantly "bad" so Moore didn't look like as much of a bastard as he did in GG.

    Still, a good moment in FYEO.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited April 2012 Posts: 2,629
    I don't think it measures up to setting Sanchez on fire or making a charitable donation to Killifer, but kicking Locque's car off the cliff was definitely the coldest thing Moore had done as Bond.
  • Posts: 5,634
    Moore was synonymous with camp humor and high jinks for a wide spread of his Bond tenure but there were serious moments to be had, the FYEO Cliff scene is just one example

    Not sure I understand the initial question though, is it someting Dalton would not do, he did worse than that you'll remember. Most vile thing (if that is the operative word) Moore did for me was the killing of Stromberg at the end of The Spy Who Loved Me. I've thought about it though, and gone with an agreement of thesis. I.e. it was effective, and what Dalton could do, hope that's right :|
  • Posts: 1,052
    I often find this argument a bit strange, Bond in the Moore films killed plenty of people, discarded and mistreated plenty of women, flicking Sandor off the building, the fight in TMWTGG, offing Scaramanga, excessive shooting of Stromberg etc, tricking Solataire, aren't these acts of a ruthless man?
  • Posts: 1,082
    IMO Moore was (and is) all-powerfull, he can do camp as well as ruthless scenes. To answer the topic: yes, the kick was as effective as everything Dalton did.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 081</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>John Glen was a better Bond editor than he was a Bond director.</b></font>
  • Posts: 12,526
    Really tricky for me this one? Will say yes and no as he had good moments performing in both roles for the films.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited April 2012 Posts: 13,355
    I'm not sure about that. He was about even and very good at both though as a director, you did know what you were going to get with each film.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 081</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>John Glen was a better Bond editor than he was a Bond director.</b></font>

    I'll agree. The quality of Glen's direction often depended on the quality of script Maibaum and Wilson provided him to work with.

    Question for DD: for a future thesis, are you going to give us a chance to debate if Peter Hunt was a better Bond editor than he was a Bond director?

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    Question for DD: for a future thesis, are you going to give us a chance to debate if Peter Hunt was a better Bond editor than he was a Bond director?

    Ask, and thou shalt receive, sir. ;-)
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    edited April 2012 Posts: 4,512
    I like all movies he work with as editor and (second united) directer.

    Don't vergot the directer is also partly editor. (Roger Spottiswoode and Michael Apted be more assistent editor for there movies then Lee Tamohori.)

    OHMSS is directed by Peter R Hunt, edit by John Glen. My opnion be that OHMSS be also the source for TSWLM, FYEO and Octopussy.

    I think Peter be a better directer. Whyle Dr No have his flash i like the movie. FRWL is his best, The train scene is slow like Dr No but never be a big problem because others be better too. On some way this also count of OHMSS. GF my biggest problem and iam curious what Hunt have done with Thunderball (Water scene's) who is not done by him. Partly it mabey be even based on FRWL.

  • Posts: 401
    I don't mind Glen when it came to directing. However, his editing job in OHMSS is appalling. I don't care for it at all.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    Glen is an appalling director. His movies have interesting plots, music, acting, but have horribly boring, dull and tedious directing. So I prefer his editing job.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited April 2012 Posts: 24,161
    Glen is an appalling director. His movies have interesting plots, music, acting, but have horribly boring, dull and tedious directing. So I prefer his editing job.

    Interesting, @DC007. Weren't you a fan of AVTAK though? (I could be mistaken, mind.) In that case, am I correct in assuming that you prefer to watch the film as a collection of great bits, rather than as a whole consisting of good bits glued together by great directing? :)

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,247
    I think Glen was a better director then editor. OHMSS for example has everything going for it except the editing, which i find sloppy and even annoying at certain points. Though I don't think he's the best directo of all, the films he directed are fairly decently done so. Especially AVTAK and TLD.
  • Posts: 1,082
    This might be controversial here, but I like Glen as a director as much as an editor, if not more. I still prefer Hamilton and Gilbert, but the 5 films he made ranged between pretty good to very good IMO. He was much more serious than the other mentioned directors, even the ones with Moore, but still had some humorous parts. The editing in OHMSS was a little too sloppy for my taste.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,713
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Glen is an appalling director. His movies have interesting plots, music, acting, but have horribly boring, dull and tedious directing. So I prefer his editing job.

    Interesting, @DC007. Weren't you a fan of AVTAK though? (I could be mistaken, mind.) In that case, am I correct in assuming that you prefer to watch the film as a collection of great bits, rather than as a whole consisting of good bits glued together by great directing? :)

    IMO the good bits in the Glen films outweighs the bad directing... but yes it does hurt the film, since when there's not much happening, the movies are just tedious. I always await the next good bit, as you say, while in other films the whole flick just flows really great.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited April 2012 Posts: 24,161
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Glen is an appalling director. His movies have interesting plots, music, acting, but have horribly boring, dull and tedious directing. So I prefer his editing job.

    Interesting, @DC007. Weren't you a fan of AVTAK though? (I could be mistaken, mind.) In that case, am I correct in assuming that you prefer to watch the film as a collection of great bits, rather than as a whole consisting of good bits glued together by great directing? :)

    IMO the good bits in the Glen films outweighs the bad directing... but yes it does hurt the film, since when there's not much happening, the movies are just tedious. I always await the next good bit, as you say, while in other films the whole flick just flows really great.

    Though I'm a big fan of Glen myself, I understand and in fact agree with you more or less. MR, for example, often criticized of its incredulous plot or its scifi-ish 3rd act, has IMO a very strong continuous quality to offer. I mean, does it ever get boring or tedious? Not in my book. Yet even one of my beloved films, FYEO, I must admit, requires at times that I pay close attention to the wonderful settings or Moore's very enjoyable acting, for if I don't, the story doesn't always boost the rhythm of the film. Luckily I'm a very patient (sometimes too patient) viewer who doesn't mind absorbing a scene's mood when the story seems to have gone to bed for a few minutes. But like I said, MR for example never necessitates this manoeuvre.

    That said, Glen's last two films rate very high on my Bond film list. And perhaps not surprisingly I think that the objections you postulated, and which I mostly agreed with as demonstrated above, don't quite count for those. There's not a single moment in both films that in the slightest feel dull to me and Glen's directing actually serves as the cherry on a fine piece of pie. What say you? :-)
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited April 2012 Posts: 15,713
    TLD features Glen's best directing, and IMO I never get bored of watching that film. LTK has more problems in that department, as they are a few moments I really can't wait for the next scene to start.
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