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The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 129</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>TMWTGG gives absolutely no reason why Bond is attacked by the Beirut thugs.</b></font>
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited July 2012 Posts: 12,480
    Thesis 128: Disagree. I like Dench's M immensely. I enjoyed her with Brosnan and also with Craig. I also don't consider it too maternal or a motherly role; I find it interesting so many men do.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Thesis 128: Absolutly agree. Dench is totally wrong for Craig's tough, masculine Bond... just like she would be wrong alongside Connery's and Dalton's M.

    Sir Miles Messervy is needed against thought Bond's like Connery, Dalton and Craig, while a more soft M like Dench is more appropriate alongside Lazenby, Moore and Brosnan.

    So having Dench with Craig is an absolutly abysmal decision.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    How about thesis 129, gentlemen?
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    129:

    I could be due for a fresh viewing of TMWTGG because I can't remember 100%-- but I'm under the impression that they were giving Roger the evil eye simply because he was 'new' and they didn't know him. They only got physical once Roger crept back into the dressing room (understandable)
    So disagree, for now
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2012 Posts: 15,715
    Maybe they owned the club ? Once they see Rog trying to rogerize one of their dancers... they assault him ?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    I always read it as a cheap excuse for a fight scene, one that's there just for the sake of it, without any rationale. I hate it when they do that. Honestly, it's poor screen writing. The scene would have a much stronger pay-off were there at least an interesting set-up of some sort. Now, it's just a brawl without a cause.
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    Posts: 4,813
    If they were mobsters (which they definitely looked like) then there's little reason they wouldn't beat up a stranger snooping around their club!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 24,169
    Master_Dahark wrote:
    If they were mobsters (which they definitely looked like) then there's little reason they wouldn't beat up a stranger snooping around their club!

    Bond might have been a rich dude coming to spend big money. No need to be so xenophobic. ;-) Ah well. :-)
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    edited July 2012 Posts: 3,494
    Agree with the thesis. There could be reasons for the attack. Maybe the bald guy recognized him as an agent from a prior run-in, or maybe saw him paying too much attention to Saida and thought he might be trouble in some way. Definitely a plot hole.

  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    DaltonCraig007 wrote:
    Maybe they owned the club ? Once they see Rog trying to rogerize one of their dancers... they assault him ?

    That's what I always assumed.
  • Master_DaharkMaster_Dahark
    edited July 2012 Posts: 4,813
    I am forever adding that word to my vocabulary

    <center>"Hmmm! Looks like she could do with a good Rogering!"

    IMAGE2.jpg</center>
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    To Rogerize? =)) Tears are running down my cheeks. Fun never tasted this good. My goodness what a moment. :D

    I need to add it to this list:

    * to daltoneer: telling someone to p*** off while kept at gunpoint
    * to connerize: slapping a woman and bedding her - there's a subtle difference to rape in that it's not entirely against her will
    * to lazen-by, as in "I lazened by one time": to drop by once, exactly once, leaving a polarizing impression
    * taking a craig: going to the men's room and not leaving without demolishing the thing from top to bottom
    * to brozzer things up: boosting the amusement at a party by making the most remarkable pain faces
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I loved the term 'Rogering' so much I made this a while back:bondwantedposter.jpg
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 129</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>TMWTGG gives absolutely no reason why Bond is attacked by the Beirut thugs.</b></font>

    Although it's not specifically stated in dialogue, I took it that Saida was the mistress of the fat gangster and he has his thugs beat up Bond for making the moves on his woman.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited July 2012 Posts: 15,715
    PrinceKamalKhan wrote:
    Although it's not specifically stated in dialogue, I took it that Saida was the mistress of the fat gangster and he has his thugs beat up Bond for making the moves on his woman.

    ' to Rogerize', is the term for that ;)
  • JBFan626JBFan626
    Posts: 1,497
    She got 'rogered'
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    I would have to disagree. I would assume the owner didn't like the way Bond was flirting and then going to the dancer's dressing room. Which is fair enough.
  • GrindermanGrinderman
    Posts: 165
    Thesis 128: I love the Dench/Craig dynamic and think they both play it beautifully. I also wonder if those who don't like it simply don't like Dench's portrayal, or if they simply have a problem with M as a woman.

    Thesis 129: Agreed, no justification. Just an excuse to have some action and a fight scene. But it's a pretty good fight scene so I don't mind.
  • SaintMarkSaintMark
    Posts: 7,653
    To roger-
    an expression of agreement
    vb
    Slang (of a man) to copulate (with)
    [from the name Roger, representing R for received]
    Usage: The verb sense of this word was formerly considered to be taboo, and it was labelled as such in previous editions of Collins English Dictionary. However, it has now become acceptable in speech, although some older or more conservative people may object to its use.
    (Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003)

    As for the fight I concur with PrinceKamalKhan
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Grinderman wrote:
    I also wonder if those who don't like it simply don't like Dench's portrayal, or if they simply have a problem with M as a woman.

    Dench was good with Brosnan, but she's just horrible with Craig.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 24,169
    Grinderman wrote:
    Thesis 128: I love the Dench/Craig dynamic and think they both play it beautifully. I also wonder if those who don't like it simply don't like Dench's portrayal, or if they simply have a problem with M as a woman.

    My favourite M - Bond scene ever is the one we get in GoldenEye. Great chemistry, wonderful dialogue, beautiful tension. But she slowly turned into his mother and even then I was still okay with it all the way into DAD.

    Then CR came. Judy Dench performs exceptionally well. The first scene we see her in, with the 'Christ, I miss the cold war' line: pure gold. Even when she's playing opposite Craig, she still plays very well. The problem is that now the young Craig Bond is instructed by a sour grandma who lectures him through puberty. The great actress is given an inappropriate persona I think. She delivers the material well but the material is wrong. The Craig Bond needed the Admiral, a commanding presence like Lee, giving him clear and objective instructions.

  • GrindermanGrinderman
    Posts: 165
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Grinderman wrote:
    Thesis 128: I love the Dench/Craig dynamic and think they both play it beautifully. I also wonder if those who don't like it simply don't like Dench's portrayal, or if they simply have a problem with M as a woman.

    My favourite M - Bond scene ever is the one we get in GoldenEye. Great chemistry, wonderful dialogue, beautiful tension. But she slowly turned into his mother and even then I was still okay with it all the way into DAD.

    Then CR came. Judy Dench performs exceptionally well. The first scene we see her in, with the 'Christ, I miss the cold war' line: pure gold. Even when she's playing opposite Craig, she still plays very well. The problem is that now the young Craig Bond is instructed by a sour grandma who lectures him through puberty. The great actress is given an inappropriate persona I think. She delivers the material well but the material is wrong. The Craig Bond needed the Admiral, a commanding presence like Lee, giving him clear and objective instructions.

    I also think the first scene of them together in CR is one of the best Bond/M scenes in the entire seriers. Lines like:

    M: "You've got a bloody cheek!"
    Bond: "Sorry, I'll shoot the camera the next time."
    M: "Or yourself."

    Bond: "I always thought M was a randomly assigned initial, I had no idea it stood for.... "
    M: "Utter one more syllable and I'll have you killed".

    Classic stuff, that.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    @Grinderman That doesn't apply to me because I liked the M/Brosnan relationship. I just think Craig/M is a bit too mother/son.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    And as for thesis 129? ;-)
  • SirHenryLeeChaChingSirHenryLeeChaChing
    Posts: 3,494
    DaltonCraig007 wrote:
    Grinderman wrote:
    I also wonder if those who don't like it simply don't like Dench's portrayal, or if they simply have a problem with M as a woman.

    Dench was good with Brosnan, but she's just horrible with Craig.

    Naturally, she's wasn't trying to train a rookie.

  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited July 2012 Posts: 2,629
    JBFan626 wrote:
    She got 'rogered'

    Would it be safe to say that the bullet Moore swallowed also got Rogered?
    PrinceKamalKhan wrote:
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 129</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>TMWTGG gives absolutely no reason why Bond is attacked by the Beirut thugs.</b></font>

    Although it's not specifically stated in dialogue, I took it that Saida was the mistress of the fat gangster and he has his thugs beat up Bond for making the moves on his woman.

    I disagree with the thesis and would like to second Kamal's comments.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,169
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 130</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Martin, Hamlish and Conti composed title themes that in their days matched and even surpassed Barry's in popularity.</b></font>
  • RogueAgentRogueAgent
    Posts: 12,526
    Disagree, Although they were all VERY good, and Live And Let Die is right at the top end of my Bond sound tracks? Barry is still the master for me.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    Posts: 12,837
    I was going to say I don't really know, but if they composed LALD, well that's my favourite Bond theme and it's still popular today so I'd say agree. I think they matched Barry's popularity.
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