The James Bond Debate Thread - 336 Craig looks positively younger in SP than he does in SF.

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  • edited July 2012 Posts: 5,745
    Why couldn't she have been in the bathtub filled with oil. Same effect, no crappy homage.

    Disagree, the fact that it was off-screen wasn't the issue.
  • Posts: 5,634
    I don't even know why they had to choose that particular reference, especially with such a minor character who was only briefly on screen, Arterton did not deserve to exit like that with acknowledgements to one of the most iconic scenes of Bond history. All they had to do was find another way to kill her off, it is frustrating. Maybe in hindsight they would of replicated the original scene anyway if not then, but that wasn't the time for it. Surprising to an extent and doing this now, that it was never repeated again until 2008, but still unhappy with it
  • Posts: 5,745
    I don't even know why they had to choose that particular reference, especially with such a minor character who was only briefly on screen, Arterton did not deserve to exit like that with acknowledgements to one of the most iconic scenes of Bond history. All they had to do was find another way to kill her off, it is frustrating. Maybe in hindsight they would of replicated the original scene anyway if not then, but that wasn't the time for it. Surprising to an extent and doing this now, that it was never repeated again until 2008, but still unhappy with it

    Or they could of just gone completely new and had her in the bathtub filled with oil (maybe even a teat trick of oil spraying/oozing out of the shower head). You know,, something original would have been nice!
  • Posts: 5,634
    I was so disinterested with the Fields character I didn't really care what happened to her, Yes she was nice to look at it maybe some would say, but there just seemed a lack of substance or evident interest, had a few minutes of screen time, maybe if she had been featured more prominently, I could of gained more of an interest, but it was a character that won't live long in the memory

  • Posts: 4,762
    I could go either way with this. Had we seen the death of Miss Fields, then perhaps the very act itself and seeing it firsthand would have brought on more sadness, being witnesses to it and all. However, there's something about wondering exactly what happened and visualizing it for yourself that makes it all the more chilling and frightening. I will say that the moment Craig throws open the bedroom doors and we see her body is quite scary, especially when M starts asking why she should have died. I would have been fine with seeing the death as much as with what we got.
  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 132</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>Fields' offscreen death reduced its dramatic impact.</b></font>

    Agree: There should have been a sequence to build up to the end result, but i would not have repeated the Golden Girl pose. They should have had found somewhere else? Just not sure how?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Disagree. But I think she was onscreen too short a time; that could have been built up and her death would be more dramatic/impactful. But having the actual death be offscreen I feel was the better choice.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    edited July 2012 Posts: 28,694
    Disagree. If you don't know what happened you try to guess in your head, and your expectations are so great the real thing could never meet them. It is better that it is offscreen.
  • Agree with the thesis. Definitely a casualty of the writer's strike and the resulting script issues. Showing Greene presiding over her death would have helped build his character as well. Mathis' capture and beating not being shown before Bond finds him is another situation like this one. Very frustrating for the viewer, but all things considered I'd still take QOS over 7-8 movies in the series which didn't suffer from this problem.
  • Posts: 12,837
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Why couldn't she have been in the bathtub filled with oil. Same effect, no crappy homage.

    Disagree, the fact that it was off-screen wasn't the issue.

    This. Why they felt the need to shove in a GF reference, idk.
  • Posts: 1,817
    I don't hate QOS but I do find this homage very lame. And I don't see any dramatic impact - onscreen or offscreen - because the public didn't connect with Fields, I think.
  • Posts: 4,762
    0013 wrote:
    I don't hate QOS but I do find this homage very lame. And I don't see any dramatic impact - onscreen or offscreen - because the public didn't connect with Fields, I think.

    That is true, we didn't see enough of her or get enough out of her character to really be depressed about her death. We can be sad yes, because it is a death of an ally, but in all honesty, she wasn't around long enough for us to care that much. She served her purpose as a girl for Bond to get his groove on with and then exited just as quickly as she came.
  • Posts: 165
    This is kind of beside the point, but everyone seems to be saying Fields' death didn't have any impact because they didn't feel for Fields. But you weren't supposed to feel for her, you were supposed to feel for Bond.

    A lot of people that were, in effect, dragged into the situation by Bond were ending up dead (Vesper, Mathis, that first chick he slept with in CR - can't think of her name at the moment). Bond was feeling more than a little responsible and, dare I say, guilty, for all those innocent deaths. And I think Craig did a brilliant job depicting that in a very subtle way - a lot of lesser actors would have played it way over the top in order to make it obvious what the character is going through.

    This, again, is what I like about QoS: it takes the character of Bond into very new and unfamiliar territory. But Craig, to his credit, pulls it off beautifully while remaining Bond.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Why couldn't she have been in the bathtub filled with oil. Same effect, no crappy homage.

    Disagree, the fact that it was off-screen wasn't the issue.

    This. Why they felt the need to shove in a GF reference, idk.

    How did Greene know about Jill Masterson? Does that mean CR/QoS is not a reboot? ;) Oh, dear...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Grinderman wrote:
    This is kind of beside the point, but everyone seems to be saying Fields' death didn't have any impact because they didn't feel for Fields. But you weren't supposed to feel for her, you were supposed to feel for Bond.

    A lot of people that were, in effect, dragged into the situation by Bond were ending up dead (Vesper, Mathis, that first chick he slept with in CR - can't think of her name at the moment). Bond was feeling more than a little responsible and, dare I say, guilty, for all those innocent deaths. And I think Craig did a brilliant job depicting that in a very subtle way - a lot of lesser actors would have played it way over the top in order to make it obvious what the character is going through.

    This, again, is what I like about QoS: it takes the character of Bond into very new and unfamiliar territory. But Craig, to his credit, pulls it off beautifully while remaining Bond.

    I agree. Craig did this very well. From what I remember, Campbell's directing style and camera movements also helped heighten the guilt Bond feels towards Solange's death in CR. The camera cutting from the bodybag being carried away, to a slow medium shot that moves closer to Bond's face as M describes that Solange was tortured then killed. The subtle look of remorse on Bond's face parallels the guilt Bond feels, the camera acts as a tool to show the guilt dawning upon him as it comes closer. Campbell managed to draw a similarly low-key performance from Brosnan in GoldenEye, but not to the great effect he achieved in CR.

    Either way, you definitely feel for Bond, equally in QOS. Those crossfades that Forster employs shows the horror of Fields' death coupled with Bond's "trapped in a corner" feeling.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 24,184
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 133</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>In terms of manners, Solitaire and Goodnight mostly showed their feminine side, whereas Anya and Holly had a more expressed masculine side.</b></font>
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 13,355
    Goodnight should have been capable too, being an agent and what have you...
  • Posts: 7,653
    They were all very goodlooking females and some of them were more handson, which should not being confused with masculine. I know plenty of men that are worse than women.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    I wasn't talking about looks, guys, but mostly about what they do. I suppose I should make that more clear. :-)
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    Posts: 2,629
    This is a definite agree. I think Anya was turning point in the franchise of Bond women becoming more on par with Bond rather than being a weaker female. Whereas Solitaire was a defenseless psychic and Goodnight was a ditzy blonde agent, Anya and Holly were both capable agents who could knock Bond down a peg or two yet still hold their own for fighting alongside of Bond.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    Kerim wrote:
    This is a definite agree. I think Anya was turning point in the franchise of Bond women becoming more on par with Bond rather than being a weaker female. Whereas Solitaire was a defenseless psychic and Goodnight was a ditzy blonde agent, Anya and Holly were both capable agents who could knock Bond down a peg or two yet still hold their own for fighting alongside of Bond.

    Well said, @Kerim. I always think of Anya as the definitive break with the helpless damsel myself. Most girls since then were Bond women and no longer Bond girls. Well, there's always the likes of Bibi of course. ;-) Either way, I yearn for the days of the glamorous girls versus the 'I am Bond's equal' self-made women.

  • Posts: 12,526
    DarthDimi wrote:
    <font color=tomato size=4><b>THESIS 133</b></font>

    <font color=blue size=7><b>In terms of manners, Solitaire and Goodnight mostly showed their feminine side, whereas Anya and Holly had a more expressed masculine side.</b></font>

    Agree.
  • Posts: 4,762
    Definitely agree on this one. Solitaire didn't do anything to defend herself and had to have Bond do everything for her, and the same with Mary Goodnight, which is pretty pathetic considering she was an "agent with field experience." HAH! Nowhere further from the truth! Of course yes, Anya and Holly certainly showed their more masculine side of capability, but I never liked that. I hate it when the Bond girl tries to be better than 007 for the sake of "Women's Rights" or whatever. Ugh, it completely ruins a Bond girl's character for me, which is one reason why I rate Anya and Holly so low on my list.
  • Posts: 7,653
    DarthDimi wrote:
    I wasn't talking about looks, guys, but mostly about what they do. I suppose I should make that more clear. :-)

    Disagree, a sexist thought that the women were any less than before.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Agree.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Agree.

    And for the record, Anya is the hottest.
  • Posts: 1,817
    I have to disagree with this sexist thesis. Solitaire and Goodnight weren't expressing their "feminine" side, they were just not very smart or capable, as many men aren't either. While Anya and Holly were professionals - which in the 20th century isn't a masculine feature.
  • KerimKerim Istanbul Not Constantinople
    edited July 2012 Posts: 2,629
    DarthDimi wrote:
    Kerim wrote:
    This is a definite agree. I think Anya was turning point in the franchise of Bond women becoming more on par with Bond rather than being a weaker female. Whereas Solitaire was a defenseless psychic and Goodnight was a ditzy blonde agent, Anya and Holly were both capable agents who could knock Bond down a peg or two yet still hold their own for fighting alongside of Bond.

    Well said, @Kerim. I always think of Anya as the definitive break with the helpless damsel myself. Most girls since then were Bond women and no longer Bond girls. Well, there's always the likes of Bibi of course. ;-) Either way, I yearn for the days of the glamorous girls versus the 'I am Bond's equal' self-made women.

    Let's look at the lead girls.

    Honey-Had to learn to be self-reliant after the death of her father. Even killed a man who attempted to rape her. Could hold her own.
    Tatiana-A damsel in distress, but killed when she needed to.
    Pussy-Not too many women pilots in the mid-60s and foiled Goldfinger's attempt to nuke Fort Knox. Certainly not a damsel.
    Domino-Same as Tatiana
    Aki/Kissy-Trained agents, but could be seen as weaker due to the Japanese culture of the time.
    Tracy-A wreckless damsel.
    Tiffany-The tough girl act was transparent. A damsel.
    Solitaire-Probably helped Bond the least of anyone.
    Goodnight-The most useless agent of them all.
    Anya-Again, the turning point of the lead ladies.
    Holly-A doctor who could fight.
    Melina-Hellbent on revenge. No weakness on her part.
    Octopussy-Could defend herself and go on the offensive.
    Stacy-The most useless non-agent of them all.
    Kara-She did knock out that Soviet guard. Otherwise, not of much help.
    Pam-Probably the best female ally Bond had.
    Natalya-She knew how to load a gun and stood up to the men.
    Wai Lin-I suppose she could fight.
    Christmas-More annoying than helpful.
    Jinx-Too much on par with Bond perhaps.
    Vesper-Wasn't mentally weak, but in the end a damsel in distress.
    Camille-Got her revenge but needed motivation by Bond in the actual killing act.

    I would say all except for Pussy, Wai Lin and possibly Melina and Camille generally nurtured their feminine side.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Thesis 133 is utter nonsense (sorry Darth ;) ). There is no scale from ' feminine' to ' masculine'. If anyone can give a definition of either which actually fits all the women and men in this world, I'll reconsider. But I don't think that's going to happen. Were the Amazons not feminine? Is Fione Volpe not feminine?
    Perhaps they should put more helpless men in the films as well, so we won't make such differences between the women anymore. A bit like Rowan Atkinson in NSNA..
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2012 Posts: 24,184
    No problem, @CommanderRoss. :-) I don't necessarily agree with a thesis myself.

    For those who speak Dutch, there's an interesting thesis written on the subject online.
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