Goldeneye vs. Casino Royale

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  • I was about to say TB but it's been so long since I've seen it. TLD really only uses any Fleming material for the first 10 mins or so after the credits though.
  • QsAssistantQsAssistant All those moments lost in time... like tears in rain
    Posts: 1,812
    I love GE more. I grew up with it and it has my favorite Bond to date. But I don't really think it's fair to compare the two films because they are so different. I think it would be more fair to compare CR with the likes of DN or FRWL.
  • Posts: 1,492
    I've said before everytime EON incorporates Fleming material into their script in a significant way they always end up with a winner. DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS, FYEO, and CR all stayed true to their Fleming source material and they were all great.

    Very true.

    GE nowadays looks tired, dated and quite frankly dull. Its a succession of tickboxes and cliches for those who cant do without their tickboxes and cliches.

    CR is a jewell. Not just the best Bond film for twenty years but one of the best films for twenty years. BAFTA award winning CR is one of the best of the series.

  • Well Goldeneye has a damn fine more exciting teaser than Royale that's for sure. Most neutrals have said they remember Brosnans debut picture for the plane opening and tank chase and that's fair enough, they were maybe the two biggest action sequences in the film sould would argue (I found some parts of the Cuba ending and satellite dish/ control center a bit dull actually) and that's fair enough. Brosnan does well in his Bond debut but I will always insist TWINE is his best performance of the four

    I liked the credits sequence whereas symbols of Soviet communism were broken down and Kleinman takes plaudits for work here, wasn't so keen on the Turner theme song sorry to add, just really didn't take to it and the time of release

    There's lots to get involved in but it doesn't take itself as seriously as Craigs debut, the whole concept of a Bond adversary killing men with her thighs is borderline ridiculous, and I never found the Jansenn character particularly menacing or believable. If it ever comes down to a choice of which is the better of the two then for me Royale wins by some distance, it has more vibrancy, vigor and all round substance, and Craig is more closer to the Fleming original character here although Brosnan did do very well here and there in his first appearance and was both believable and rose up to the James Bond challenge particularly in the first half of the film

  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    I was about to say TB but it's been so long since I've seen it. TLD really only uses any Fleming material for the first 10 mins or so after the credits though.

    Because that's pretty much all the material they had by that point. Still, I consider the first 1/2 hour of TLD one of the most accurate depictions of the Fleming character onscreen.
  • Posts: 4,762
    GoldenEye for sure, hands down, no questions asked! It's got Pierce Brosnan in his best performance as 007, a magnificent host of villains that is still unmatched by any Bond movie, the introduction of Judi Dench's M, an awesome score that really sets the tone for the movie, tons of good action that is necessary and not just filler, quotable dialogue that never fails to entertain, and so much more that I could ramble on about it for hours and hours!
  • Posts: 1,492
    00Beast wrote:
    , a magnificent host of villains that is still unmatched by any Bond movie, t!

    Really?

    Better then Red Grant, Klebb, Blofeld, Kronsteen etc? Better then Auric, Oddjob, Pussy? Better then Kananga, Whisper, Tee Hee, Baron Samedi?

  • I don't know what he's thinking, only Bean stands head and shoulders above everyone else against Bond as a worthwhile adversary, and even then Trevelyan could easily of been 007 in that film instead of Brosnan and it would of been a success I feel, or at least worked, I don't mean have Brosnan as Alec but Sean as 007 may just have worked

    all the other Bond nemesis' from Goldeneye were a major let down if you really think about it, Onatopp, Ourumov, Grishenko etc, was the latter even a 'Bond villain' for goodness sake, not even sure how to categorize him, he looked like he wouldn't harm a fly :|
  • Posts: 1,492
    I don't know what he's thinking, only Bean stands head and shoulders above everyone else against Bond as a worthwhile adversary, and even then Trevelyan could easily of been 007 in that film instead of Brosnan and it would of been a success I feel, or at least worked, I don't mean have Brosnan as Alec but Sean as 007 may just have worked

    Back in 1995 I yawned at Bean as a Bond villain. Maybe its a British thing. He was just too familiar from other work and I had trouble taking him seriously as an adversary. I remember him in Caravaggio and the week before his arse had been going up and down on Joely Richardson in Lady Chatterleys Lover.

    How comes he has a Blofeld type base? He strikes me as exactly the type of villain who would not have a Blofeld type base. A cliche for the sake of it?

    ,
    Grishenko etc, was the latter even a 'Bond villain' for goodness sake, not even sure how to categorize him, he looked like he wouldn't harm a fly :|

    How to categorise Boris Grischenko? Unfunny comedy character? aka Sherriff J W Pepper syndrome?

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,778
    Well Goldeneye has a damn fine more exciting teaser than Royale that's for sure. Most neutrals have said they remember Brosnans debut picture for the plane opening and tank chase and that's fair enough, they were maybe the two biggest action sequences in the film sould would argue (I found some parts of the Cuba ending and satellite dish/ control center a bit dull actually) and that's fair enough. Brosnan does well in his Bond debut but I will always insist TWINE is his best performance of the four

    I liked the credits sequence whereas symbols of Soviet communism were broken down and Kleinman takes plaudits for work here, wasn't so keen on the Turner theme song sorry to add, just really didn't take to it and the time of release

    There's lots to get involved in but it doesn't take itself as seriously as Craigs debut, the whole concept of a Bond adversary killing men with her thighs is borderline ridiculous, and I never found the Jansenn character particularly menacing or believable. If it ever comes down to a choice of which is the better of the two then for me Royale wins by some distance, it has more vibrancy, vigor and all round substance, and Craig is more closer to the Fleming original character here although Brosnan did do very well here and there in his first appearance and was both believable and rose up to the James Bond challenge particularly in the first half of the film

    Personally I'm a less is more kinda guy. I'll take a black and white opening of Bond sitting in the shadows waiting to kill a man in cold blood over an opening with really bad green screen, endless machine gun fire, and Bond hanging over a toilet any day. Plus in the scheme of the story the PTS doesn't even really make sense. Watch haphazard's review of Goldeneye to see what I mean.

    As for the credits, I loved the retro vibe of CR's credit sequence. Easily Kleinman's best IMO. Plus I'm a big Chris Cornell fan.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I don't get it. I'm English and I thought Bean was great in GE. Then again at that time I hadn't seen him in anything else. However even now I still think he's excellent - possibly the best character in the film.
  • Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I don't get it. I'm English and I thought Bean was great in GE -

    And I liked the intro to GE (tho Royales was admittedly better).
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,778
    I always liked the shorter pre title sequences more. There meant to tease us not give us a big peice of the story. I seems like the PTS to Brosnan's films got so long and overdrawn that by the time the credits hit the viewer was already into the movie. The best example of this was TWINE. It was probably close to 14 or 15 minutes. I don't think the PTS should ever exceed 7 or 8 mins.
  • Posts: 2,107
    Casino Royale. After 16 years GE feels more tired and dated, than other "classic films" in the series. I like the cold echo in the GE soundtrack, but other than that it loses to CR's score, that's more lush.

    As a film CR also feels more fresh. It feels like a classic Bond adventure without ticking all the cliché boxes. Brave to show something new, but also old.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    actonsteve wrote:
    Better then Red Grant, Klebb, Blofeld, Kronsteen etc? Better then Auric, Oddjob, Pussy? Better then Kananga, Whisper, Tee Hee, Baron Samedi?

    The people I struck out were actually good characters, but I'll never understand why you listed the others as being better than GoldenEye's cast. I don't like Boris, but I'd take him better than Kronsteen, Pussy Galore, Whisper or, yes, even Auric Goldfinger any day.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    00Beast wrote:
    , a magnificent host of villains that is still unmatched by any Bond movie, t!

    Really?

    Better than Goldfinger, Kananga, Whisper, Tee Hee, Baron Samedi?

    Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The film's great and GF was obviously a classic villain but Gert Frobe was hardly the most imposing character - just an overweight German...sorry Englishman...whom Connery had virtually no problems overpowering at the end. The villains of LALD didn't really stick out as much for me either. They were good but hardly the very best.

    Plus GE contains one of the more underrated Bond villains - General Oromov.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    I don't see how Ourumov is underrated. Underused, yes. He gets killed off too quickly (especially in the 2010 game, where he dies before Trevelyn is even revealed to be Janus).
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Well most people only remember Trevelyan and Xenia don't they?

    There's one other thing I prefer about GE and that's M's characterisation. While Dench herself is great in both I think her cold attitude and icy remarks in GE are more effective ("because if I wanted sarcasm Mr Tanner I'll tall to my children thank you very much").

    In Royale she's reduced to mild swearing - even more so in Quantum of Solace).
  • Posts: 1,492
    I don't see how Ourumov is underrated. Underused, yes. He gets killed off too quickly (especially in the 2010 game, where he dies before Trevelyn is even revealed to be Janus).

    Underrated? There is no character to rate in the first place.

    When they do try to give him a bit of character it is done so cackhandedly its embarasing. Ouromov is under stresss. How do we show this? Ummm..lets have him swig from a miniature. Amateur and lazy.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    "Please don't talk to me like I'm stoopid" ;)

    How else do you suggest they show it?
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Well most people only remember Trevelyan and Xenia don't they?

    There's one other thing I prefer about GE and that's M's characterisation. While Dench herself is great in both I think her cold attitude and icy remarks in GE are more effective ("because if I wanted sarcasm Mr Tanner I'll tall to my children thank you very much").

    In Royale she's reduced to mild swearing - even more so in Quantum of Solace).

    More so then CR where she has to gain her trust in Bond in the first place? Where he has to prove her faith in him when she promoted him to "00"? Where she has to learn to trust him and his judgement throughout the film? She is on a learning curve as well as Bond.

    M in GE was part of the whole "updating Bond for the nineties" spiel which meant he being waspish and defensive. She does have some good lines but doesnt have the character movement she has in CR and QoS.

  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    "Please don't talk to me like I'm stoopid" ;)

    How else do you suggest they show it?

    Good dialogue and acting?
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    "Please don't talk to me like I'm stoopid" ;)

    How else do you suggest they show it?

    Good dialogue and acting?

    Gottfried John does act it pretty well IMO.

    I prefer the cold, calculating M to the one who seems panicked by everything personally. It just shows a bit more...I don't know...dignity. She is afterall the head of Mi6. In Royale it wasn't too bad but it became a little annoying in Quantum.
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    "Please don't talk to me like I'm stoopid" ;)

    How else do you suggest they show it?

    Good dialogue and acting?

    Godfrey John does act it pretty well actually.

    I am probably being a little hard on Gottfried John. He does well with what he is given.

  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [ In Royale it wasn't too bad but it became a little annoying in Quantum.

    In Quantum M has an even bigger character progression. She loses faith in Bond after he goes on that killing spree. She is not sure whether her first instincts about him not being up to the job were right. Only, at the end, in Kazan, does she realise that it was nothing to with revenge whatsoever and she re-trusts him. Another learning curve for her.
  • Posts: 11,189
    M should trust Bond though. She shouldn't treat him like a small child and Bond shouldn't act like one. Also, she says that she trusts him some time before the end in the hallway of the hotel. One mmute she has him suspended pending further investigation, the next she lets him go (after he beats up the agents in the lift). Which is it?

    Another thing. Bond doesn't even bother to tell M about what he and Camile discovered in the cave.
  • Posts: 17,743
    I prefer GE more, I guess. But, I grew up with the game, so the GE-story is probably more familiar to me than CR is yet.

    I've always had a soft spot for some of the tracks on the GE-soundtrack too. "Run, Shoot and Jump" is one of the tracks I've listened most to over the years; it's short, but very intense.
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    M should trust Bond though. She shouldn't treat him like a small child and Bond shouldn't act like one. Also, she says that she trusts him some time before the end in the hallway of the hotel. One mmute she has him suspended pending further investigation, the next she lets him go (after he beats up the agents in the lift). Which is it?

    Shw did, but his actions in Haiti allowed her to query that trust. She has him suspended after the carnage in Haiti.~Once she meets him again i n Bolivia she re evaluates that and supports him after the conversation in La Paz. The character goes through a progression.

    Abit more interesting that just "your a sexist misygonist dinosaur Brozzer.." dont you think.

  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Well, with M in Quantum of Solace, you've got to take a few things into account:

    1) She's been attacked by her own body guard.
    2) Bond's killing every lead they've got (some accidental, some not).
    3) If you notice, she doesn't have a problem letting Bond go off on his own after Bergens, it's only after Mathis has been killed and they find Fields dead that she decides to step in, and then she lets him go only after he's taken down several other agents.
    4) Because of the aforementioned body guard incident, she has no clue who is or isn't with Quantum.
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Another thing. Bond doesn't even bother to tell M about what he and Camile discovered in the cave.

    He doesn't tell her, because she won't listen. She proved that already. She assumed that Bond shot Haines' body guard and threw him off the roof, and probably would not have listened if Bond had told him that the body guard was shot on the ground by Greene's men after falling off the roof.
  • Posts: 278
    GE or CR
    GE, when is came out it pushed all the right buttons. The thing is and I'm not sure why, but the more films Brosnan did, the more I forgot GE, yet its probably his best
    TND - Too much Bond with a machine gun in both hands acting like Arnold.
    TWINE - Too boring
    DAD - CGI surfing!!!!
    Bonds actors tend to be like Marmite and you either love the characters playing them or you don't and you only get a real appreciation for them a long time after they are gone.
    Back on subject :) CR for me is the best Bond film since OHMSS (and I love TLD/LTK so thats saying something).
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