Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

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  • Posts: 1,078
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    I suppose they had to do the shot, otherwise people wouldn't accept Bond's death. Once they'd made the monumentally stupid decision to kill off James Bond, they had to go the whole way and show him being blown to hell.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    I suppose they had to do the shot, otherwise people wouldn't accept Bond's death. Once they'd made the monumentally stupid decision to kill off James Bond, they had to go the whole way and show him being blown to hell.

    That's very true, I'm just not a fan of the moment itself, it seems very gratuitous. Like you rightly say, they didn't want to leave any hope and I think that was a bit cruel towards the audience.

    I will say the pan up "hero shot" of Bond when he looks up at his fate is glorious, even in the face of danger Bond is still strong and defiant. Love that
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally would have preferred the more ambiguous ending, mainly for the repeat viewings. Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    Yeah, an ambiguous ending would have been much better and would have demanded repeat viewings. You're not alone. I also don't like watching Safin shooting Bond, because for a clever spy like Bond, it's really embarrassing watching that moment. Because Bond usually observes his surroundings in true spy fashion, before making a move. It explains why he usually inspects his hotel rooms, before settling down.
    They should have found a way for Safin to infect Bond differently. I feel they should have been an inventive hide-and-seek moment between Bond and Safin. Maybe through a complex maze designed by Safin, then in the process, he infects Bond and Bond kills him without getting injured. Then a Bond that's not wounded, stands up like a hero and waits for the missiles to rain down on him without fear.
    Also, Zimmer's Final Ascent fits the moment, but I would have loved to hear the Bond theme....even if it was a poignant or bitter-sweet rendition or better still the usual bullish version of the Bond theme, to close-off the last seconds of Bond.
    I don't like the idea of Bond dying, but I think there were better ways of doing it, to make it look more heroic. I still feel a director like Martin Campbell would have done Bond's death better.

    For better or for worse they went with the ending they did, and they clearly wanted that finality to the Craig era. I must admit though, on my first viewing it felt like there were beats and set ups to things that just didn't seem to come. The emphasis on the smart blood, Bond's vital signs etc. Maybe it's just me. I don't know, I was almost expecting a scene at the end where Q is in his lab staring at Bond's vitals, and M or Moneypenny enter. Some back and forth about how potentially he could have gotten out before they admit Bond's gone and leave. The camera slowly tracks towards the screen, the Bond theme quietly starts to build up until a single 'beep' and we cut to black. Almost Inception-esque I guess.

    I get what they were trying to do with the final confrontation between Bond and Safin. Safin's a physically weak villain, and despite getting shot, Bond is able to break his arm. It's an uncannily cruel way for a Bond villain to die. One almost feels bad for Safin. He wasn't born a monster but became one because of SPECTRE. But still, he's doomed Bond to his fate. The problem is his character has gone so off the rails at this point and the little monologue he gives about heartbreak is so flowery, vague and cringeworthy, that for me the impact is lessened. I dunno, if Safin had been more upset, asked Bond why he couldn't just appreciate what he was doing as both men have had their lives ruined by SPECTRE, maybe it would have had more impact. I mean, that's actually the one thing these two men actually have in common. It's all very interesting but the way it's executed lessens it for me.

    I do love the way Bond kills him without even looking though. Safin has become irrelevant at that point; it's nicely done.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally would have preferred the more ambiguous ending, mainly for the repeat viewings. Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    Yeah, an ambiguous ending would have been much better and would have demanded repeat viewings. You're not alone. I also don't like watching Safin shooting Bond, because for a clever spy like Bond, it's really embarrassing watching that moment. Because Bond usually observes his surroundings in true spy fashion, before making a move. It explains why he usually inspects his hotel rooms, before settling down.
    They should have found a way for Safin to infect Bond differently. I feel they should have been an inventive hide-and-seek moment between Bond and Safin. Maybe through a complex maze designed by Safin, then in the process, he infects Bond and Bond kills him without getting injured. Then a Bond that's not wounded, stands up like a hero and waits for the missiles to rain down on him without fear.
    Also, Zimmer's Final Ascent fits the moment, but I would have loved to hear the Bond theme....even if it was a poignant or bitter-sweet rendition or better still the usual bullish version of the Bond theme, to close-off the last seconds of Bond.
    I don't like the idea of Bond dying, but I think there were better ways of doing it, to make it look more heroic. I still feel a director like Martin Campbell would have done Bond's death better.

    For better or for worse they went with the ending they did, and they clearly wanted that finality to the Craig era. I must admit though, on my first viewing it felt like there were beats and set ups to things that just didn't seem to come. The emphasis on the smart blood, Bond's vital signs etc. Maybe it's just me. I don't know, I was almost expecting a scene at the end where Q is in his lab staring at Bond's vitals, and M or Moneypenny enter. Some back and forth about how potentially he could have gotten out before they admit Bond's gone and leave. The camera slowly tracks towards the screen, the Bond theme quietly starts to build up until a single 'beep' and we cut to black. Almost Inception-esque I guess.

    I get what they were trying to do with the final confrontation between Bond and Safin. Safin's a physically weak villain, and despite getting shot, Bond is able to break his arm. It's an uncannily cruel way for a Bond villain to die. One almost feels bad for Safin. He wasn't born a monster but became one because of SPECTRE. But still, he's doomed Bond to his fate. The problem is his character has gone so off the rails at this point and the little monologue he gives about heartbreak is so flowery, vague and cringeworthy, that for me the impact is lessened. I dunno, if Safin had been more upset, asked Bond why he couldn't just appreciate what he was doing as both men have had their lives ruined by SPECTRE, maybe it would have had more impact. I mean, that's actually the one thing these two men actually have in common. It's all very interesting but the way it's executed lessens it for me.

    I do love the way Bond kills him without even looking though. Safin has become irrelevant at that point; it's nicely done.

    I've always felt it's like he's putting Safin out of his misery. Not to say that it's necessarily there in the film itself (Malek plays it a bit too dramatically, but it's apparent he's become this twisted monster and certainly lives with the physical effects of the SPECTRE poisoning, which could have been interesting to play on if Safin had had more self awareness of this). Could have been similar to The Third Man where Lime nods at Martins before he's shot, in effect giving him permission to kill him.
  • Posts: 1,078
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I will say the pan up "hero shot" of Bond when he looks up at his fate is glorious, even in the face of danger Bond is still strong and defiant. Love that

    As screen deaths go, it's a noble end, for sure. I just wish it wasn't part of a sixty year film franchise that had previously celebrated a character that always triumphantly escapes at the last moment.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2023 Posts: 2,016
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally would have preferred the more ambiguous ending, mainly for the repeat viewings. Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    Yeah, an ambiguous ending would have been much better and would have demanded repeat viewings. You're not alone. I also don't like watching Safin shooting Bond, because for a clever spy like Bond, it's really embarrassing watching that moment. Because Bond usually observes his surroundings in true spy fashion, before making a move. It explains why he usually inspects his hotel rooms, before settling down.
    They should have found a way for Safin to infect Bond differently. I feel they should have been an inventive hide-and-seek moment between Bond and Safin. Maybe through a complex maze designed by Safin, then in the process, he infects Bond and Bond kills him without getting injured. Then a Bond that's not wounded, stands up like a hero and waits for the missiles to rain down on him without fear.
    Also, Zimmer's Final Ascent fits the moment, but I would have loved to hear the Bond theme....even if it was a poignant or bitter-sweet rendition or better still the usual bullish version of the Bond theme, to close-off the last seconds of Bond.
    I don't like the idea of Bond dying, but I think there were better ways of doing it, to make it look more heroic. I still feel a director like Martin Campbell would have done Bond's death better.

    For better or for worse they went with the ending they did, and they clearly wanted that finality to the Craig era. I must admit though, on my first viewing it felt like there were beats and set ups to things that just didn't seem to come. The emphasis on the smart blood, Bond's vital signs etc. Maybe it's just me. I don't know, I was almost expecting a scene at the end where Q is in his lab staring at Bond's vitals, and M or Moneypenny enter. Some back and forth about how potentially he could have gotten out before they admit Bond's gone and leave. The camera slowly tracks towards the screen, the Bond theme quietly starts to build up until a single 'beep' and we cut to black. Almost Inception-esque I guess.

    I get what they were trying to do with the final confrontation between Bond and Safin. Safin's a physically weak villain, and despite getting shot, Bond is able to break his arm. It's an uncannily cruel way for a Bond villain to die. One almost feels bad for Safin. He wasn't born a monster but became one because of SPECTRE. But still, he's doomed Bond to his fate. The problem is his character has gone so off the rails at this point and the little monologue he gives about heartbreak is so flowery, vague and cringeworthy, that for me the impact is lessened. I dunno, if Safin had been more upset, asked Bond why he couldn't just appreciate what he was doing as both men have had their lives ruined by SPECTRE, maybe it would have had more impact. I mean, that's actually the one thing these two men actually have in common. It's all very interesting but the way it's executed lessens it for me.

    Yeah. But I just wanted at least a hint of ambiguity towards Bond's death or something complex that leaves a happy feel. Also, a more engaging confrontation between Bond & Safin...it was just too straightforward for a complex character like Bond.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,789
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally would have preferred the more ambiguous ending, mainly for the repeat viewings. Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    Yeah, an ambiguous ending would have been much better and would have demanded repeat viewings. You're not alone. I also don't like watching Safin shooting Bond, because for a clever spy like Bond, it's really embarrassing watching that moment. Because Bond usually observes his surroundings in true spy fashion, before making a move. It explains why he usually inspects his hotel rooms, before settling down.
    They should have found a way for Safin to infect Bond differently. I feel they should have been an inventive hide-and-seek moment between Bond and Safin. Maybe through a complex maze designed by Safin, then in the process, he infects Bond and Bond kills him without getting injured. Then a Bond that's not wounded, stands up like a hero and waits for the missiles to rain down on him without fear.
    Also, Zimmer's Final Ascent fits the moment, but I would have loved to hear the Bond theme....even if it was a poignant or bitter-sweet rendition or better still the usual bullish version of the Bond theme, to close-off the last seconds of Bond.
    I don't like the idea of Bond dying, but I think there were better ways of doing it, to make it look more heroic. I still feel a director like Martin Campbell would have done Bond's death better.

    For better or for worse they went with the ending they did, and they clearly wanted that finality to the Craig era. I must admit though, on my first viewing it felt like there were beats and set ups to things that just didn't seem to come. The emphasis on the smart blood, Bond's vital signs etc. Maybe it's just me. I don't know, I was almost expecting a scene at the end where Q is in his lab staring at Bond's vitals, and M or Moneypenny enter. Some back and forth about how potentially he could have gotten out before they admit Bond's gone and leave. The camera slowly tracks towards the screen, the Bond theme quietly starts to build up until a single 'beep' and we cut to black. Almost Inception-esque I guess.

    I get what they were trying to do with the final confrontation between Bond and Safin. Safin's a physically weak villain, and despite getting shot, Bond is able to break his arm. It's an uncannily cruel way for a Bond villain to die. One almost feels bad for Safin. He wasn't born a monster but became one because of SPECTRE. But still, he's doomed Bond to his fate. The problem is his character has gone so off the rails at this point and the little monologue he gives about heartbreak is so flowery, vague and cringeworthy, that for me the impact is lessened. I dunno, if Safin had been more upset, asked Bond why he couldn't just appreciate what he was doing as both men have had their lives ruined by SPECTRE, maybe it would have had more impact. I mean, that's actually the one thing these two men actually have in common. It's all very interesting but the way it's executed lessens it for me.

    Yeah. But I just wanted at least a hint of ambiguity towards Bond's death or something complex that leaves a happy feel. Also, a more engaging confrontation between Bond & Safin...it was just too straightforward for a complex character like Bond.

    Yes, even Fleming, he never killed Bond in the most obvious or straightforward way, each books had always that ambiguous feeling to it.

    Or dare I say it, a vague cliffhanger that leaves audiences up for speculations.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,383
    I'm going to speak up for those of us who found it quite a satisfying ending. I didn't love NTTD overall, but I thought the ending worked very well and gave Bond a good reason to die, something he'd never had before. If he'd lived, or there had been any suggestion that he had, I think that would have undercut that and spoilt its power.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally would have preferred the more ambiguous ending, mainly for the repeat viewings. Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    Yeah, an ambiguous ending would have been much better and would have demanded repeat viewings. You're not alone. I also don't like watching Safin shooting Bond, because for a clever spy like Bond, it's really embarrassing watching that moment. Because Bond usually observes his surroundings in true spy fashion, before making a move. It explains why he usually inspects his hotel rooms, before settling down.
    They should have found a way for Safin to infect Bond differently. I feel they should have been an inventive hide-and-seek moment between Bond and Safin. Maybe through a complex maze designed by Safin, then in the process, he infects Bond and Bond kills him without getting injured. Then a Bond that's not wounded, stands up like a hero and waits for the missiles to rain down on him without fear.
    Also, Zimmer's Final Ascent fits the moment, but I would have loved to hear the Bond theme....even if it was a poignant or bitter-sweet rendition or better still the usual bullish version of the Bond theme, to close-off the last seconds of Bond.
    I don't like the idea of Bond dying, but I think there were better ways of doing it, to make it look more heroic. I still feel a director like Martin Campbell would have done Bond's death better.

    For better or for worse they went with the ending they did, and they clearly wanted that finality to the Craig era. I must admit though, on my first viewing it felt like there were beats and set ups to things that just didn't seem to come. The emphasis on the smart blood, Bond's vital signs etc. Maybe it's just me. I don't know, I was almost expecting a scene at the end where Q is in his lab staring at Bond's vitals, and M or Moneypenny enter. Some back and forth about how potentially he could have gotten out before they admit Bond's gone and leave. The camera slowly tracks towards the screen, the Bond theme quietly starts to build up until a single 'beep' and we cut to black. Almost Inception-esque I guess.

    I get what they were trying to do with the final confrontation between Bond and Safin. Safin's a physically weak villain, and despite getting shot, Bond is able to break his arm. It's an uncannily cruel way for a Bond villain to die. One almost feels bad for Safin. He wasn't born a monster but became one because of SPECTRE. But still, he's doomed Bond to his fate. The problem is his character has gone so off the rails at this point and the little monologue he gives about heartbreak is so flowery, vague and cringeworthy, that for me the impact is lessened. I dunno, if Safin had been more upset, asked Bond why he couldn't just appreciate what he was doing as both men have had their lives ruined by SPECTRE, maybe it would have had more impact. I mean, that's actually the one thing these two men actually have in common. It's all very interesting but the way it's executed lessens it for me.

    Yeah. But I just wanted at least a hint of ambiguity towards Bond's death or something complex that leaves a happy feel. Also, a more engaging confrontation between Bond & Safin...it was just too straightforward for a complex character like Bond.

    Yes, even Fleming, he never killed Bond in the most obvious or straightforward way, each books had always that ambiguous feeling to it.

    Or dare I say it, a vague cliffhanger that leaves audiences up for speculations.

    Exactly. I think we long suspected that Bond was going to die in NTTD. But I guess the reason most of us weren't too worried about his death, was that a great deal of us were thinking it wouldn't be as blatant as it turned out to be.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I'm not sure there's any point in a character's death if you think they might not be dead, is there?
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm not sure there's any point in a character's death if you think they might not be dead, is there?

    I know what you mean, Buddy. But I just wanted something clever, stylish and complex.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm going to speak up for those of us who found it quite a satisfying ending. I didn't love NTTD overall, but I thought the ending worked very well and gave Bond a good reason to die, something he'd never had before. If he'd lived, or there had been any suggestion that he had, I think that would have undercut that and spoilt its power.

    I'm of the same mind. Thanks for that, @mtm ... A nice, simple perspective, that covers why some of us feel the way we do about the conclusion to this film, and this Bond's era.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    Why not have Blofeld be the main villain. Then the motivation of him giving Bond the virus would make perfect sense. Bond gets the satisfaction of killing his arch nemesis and the arch nemesis kills Bond. As Bond once said to Gogol "That's détente comrade, you die and so do I."

    Have it be Blofeld who came to visit the family that day. Get rid of the SPECTRE party and instead have it as a SPECTRE meeting. Bond is there and disrupts the party. Blofeld escapes to his island. He wants to destroy Bond's lover and child. The whole movie is greatly improved with Blofeld as the villain.

    Bond kills Blofeld by accident. How anti-climatic is that. Plus Blofeld looks like a nitwit having his agents party in Cuba. To me NTTD has Bond and Blofeld issues and it suffers from both!
  • I was never bothered by Bond dying because of all the rumors leading up to NTTD’s release.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I was never bothered by Bond dying because of all the rumors leading up to NTTD’s release.

    Also, the big campaign that Eon set on social about 'don't spoil the film for others' basically confirmed that he did die! :D
    Bond films don't usually have spoilers!

  • mtm wrote: »
    I was never bothered by Bond dying because of all the rumors leading up to NTTD’s release.

    Also, the big campaign that Eon set on social about 'don't spoil the film for others' basically confirmed that he did die! :D
    Bond films don't usually have spoilers!

    Really? I didn’t know they had that campaign for NTTD, I must’ve missed it XD. If I’m being honest, as NTTD’s release came closer and closer I tuned out all the marketing and advertisements for the film, and I’m glad I did that. I just wanted to see the movie at the point, and felt if I kept up with the marketing campaign, the movie would’ve been spoiled for me on whole, which I’m glad it wasn’t.
  • Posts: 1,985
    Does anyone seriously believe that's the best ending in the franchise? The main character in twenty-five films is blown to bits. If I was supposed have a lump in my throat and feel a little teary-eyed, that didn't happen. The story of Safin's bio weapon seems nothing more than a contrivance that allows DC to exit the series. Five actors before Craig exited the series. None insisted their final appearances be intertwined with the fate of the character they were playing.

    Over and over we are reminded of OHMSS. That was the best ending in the franchise and done with a less accomplished actor than Craig.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,016
    I still maintain that Licence To Kill is the one Bond film where James Bond dying would have been worth it. Because Dalton's Bond threw everything at it. It was about getting Sanchez killed or nothing. The way Dalton's Bond jumped on the trucks in the finale, explained that he didn't care about himself, as long as Sanchez dies. Not that I would have liked Dalton's Bond to die, but the film seems like the one Bond's death would have really been worth it, because of how Dalton's Bond went at it all alone. I just didn't feel the same about NTTD.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,383
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Does anyone seriously believe that's the best ending in the franchise? The main character in twenty-five films is blown to bits. If I was supposed have a lump in my throat and feel a little teary-eyed, that didn't happen. The story of Safin's bio weapon seems nothing more than a contrivance that allows DC to exit the series. Five actors before Craig exited the series. None insisted their final appearances be intertwined with the fate of the character they were playing.

    Over and over we are reminded of OHMSS. That was the best ending in the franchise and done with a less accomplished actor than Craig.

    If you believe that the ending where an important character dies and the whole thing ends on a sad note is the best ending, it's surely not that hard to believe that someone else somewhere will believe the same of the other one which is very similar to that?

    I still maintain that Licence To Kill is the one Bond film where James Bond dying would have been worth it. Because Dalton's Bond threw everything at it. It was about getting Sanchez killed or nothing. The way Dalton's Bond jumped on the trucks in the finale, explained that he didn't care about himself, as long as Sanchez dies. Not that I would have liked Dalton's Bond to die, but the film seems like the one Bond's death would have really been worth it, because of how Dalton's Bond went at it all alone. I just didn't feel the same about NTTD.

    It's an interesting thought and I can imagine that, although it would have been a pretty meaningless death.
    What I kind of don't understand is why they didn't kill Felix. What was the point of him surviving?
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2023 Posts: 2,016
    Oh, @mtm I think Sanchez just wanted to give Felix a harrowing new phase in life, by altering his body.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Sparing Felix's life didn't makes sense considering that he also didn't appeared in the Brosnan Era.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Oh, @mtm I think Sanchez just wanted to give Felix a harrowing new phase in life, by altering his body.

    Maybe, it's just odd that considering the number of his friends who have been killed over the years it seems a bit odd to make a whole film about Bond out revenge, and the cause is a friend who hasn't been killed. It's so much of an issue that they had to add a wife who they then kill off in a much worse way (but then never really gets mentioned again). Anyway, off topic I guess.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    mtm wrote: »
    Oh, @mtm I think Sanchez just wanted to give Felix a harrowing new phase in life, by altering his body.

    Maybe, it's just odd that considering the number of his friends who have been killed over the years it seems a bit odd to make a whole film about Bond out revenge, and the cause is a friend who hasn't been killed. It's so much of an issue that they had to add a wife who they then kill off in a much worse way (but then never really gets mentioned again). Anyway, off topic I guess.

    It's an implication of a great concept but poor (or failed) execution.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    mtm wrote: »
    Oh, @mtm I think Sanchez just wanted to give Felix a harrowing new phase in life, by altering his body.

    Maybe, it's just odd that considering the number of his friends who have been killed over the years it seems a bit odd to make a whole film about Bond out revenge, and the cause is a friend who hasn't been killed. It's so much of an issue that they had to add a wife who they then kill off in a much worse way (but then never really gets mentioned again). Anyway, off topic I guess.

    The difference was that all those allies Bond lost over the years were killed by people that MI6 wanted dead, anyway. Bond only went rogue because the Americans and the British refused to do anything about Sanchez. I think LTK did a pretty good job of justifying Bond's actions.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 12,837
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm going to speak up for those of us who found it quite a satisfying ending. I didn't love NTTD overall, but I thought the ending worked very well and gave Bond a good reason to die, something he'd never had before. If he'd lived, or there had been any suggestion that he had, I think that would have undercut that and spoilt its power.

    I'm of the same mind. Thanks for that, @mtm ... A nice, simple perspective, that covers why some of us feel the way we do about the conclusion to this film, and this Bond's era.

    Same boat here, rewatched it a couple of weeks ago for the first time in a long time. Didn’t enjoy it quite as much this time around, but I still thought the ending was perfect apart from the OHMSS nods.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    I still maintain that Licence To Kill is the one Bond film where James Bond dying would have been worth it. Because Dalton's Bond threw everything at it. It was about getting Sanchez killed or nothing. The way Dalton's Bond jumped on the trucks in the finale, explained that he didn't care about himself, as long as Sanchez dies. Not that I would have liked Dalton's Bond to die, but the film seems like the one Bond's death would have really been worth it, because of how Dalton's Bond went at it all alone. I just didn't feel the same about NTTD.

    No way Albert would have approved of that! He was also against a "Bond Begins" premise that MGW proposed when Moore left the role. Does anyone know if Broccoli even try to get the rights to CR or was that a Barbara and MGW play?

    I digress, I think Albert would have never let any of the actors who played Bond call the shot. He famously butt heads with Connery as Connery wanted more creative input. Lazenby says he was told to just act and one feels that even Moore didn't get much say on the stories that were told.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I personally would have preferred the more ambiguous ending, mainly for the repeat viewings. Last time I watched NTTD, I turned it off before Safin shot him. I don't enjoy seeing Bond get obliterated, I felt the shot itself was unnecessary.

    Yeah, an ambiguous ending would have been much better and would have demanded repeat viewings. You're not alone. I also don't like watching Safin shooting Bond, because for a clever spy like Bond, it's really embarrassing watching that moment. Because Bond usually observes his surroundings in true spy fashion, before making a move. It explains why he usually inspects his hotel rooms, before settling down.
    They should have found a way for Safin to infect Bond differently. I feel they should have been an inventive hide-and-seek moment between Bond and Safin. Maybe through a complex maze designed by Safin, then in the process, he infects Bond and Bond kills him without getting injured. Then a Bond that's not wounded, stands up like a hero and waits for the missiles to rain down on him without fear.
    Also, Zimmer's Final Ascent fits the moment, but I would have loved to hear the Bond theme....even if it was a poignant or bitter-sweet rendition or better still the usual bullish version of the Bond theme, to close-off the last seconds of Bond.
    I don't like the idea of Bond dying, but I think there were better ways of doing it, to make it look more heroic. I still feel a director like Martin Campbell would have done Bond's death better.

    For better or for worse they went with the ending they did, and they clearly wanted that finality to the Craig era. I must admit though, on my first viewing it felt like there were beats and set ups to things that just didn't seem to come. The emphasis on the smart blood, Bond's vital signs etc. Maybe it's just me. I don't know, I was almost expecting a scene at the end where Q is in his lab staring at Bond's vitals, and M or Moneypenny enter. Some back and forth about how potentially he could have gotten out before they admit Bond's gone and leave. The camera slowly tracks towards the screen, the Bond theme quietly starts to build up until a single 'beep' and we cut to black. Almost Inception-esque I guess.

    I get what they were trying to do with the final confrontation between Bond and Safin. Safin's a physically weak villain, and despite getting shot, Bond is able to break his arm. It's an uncannily cruel way for a Bond villain to die. One almost feels bad for Safin. He wasn't born a monster but became one because of SPECTRE. But still, he's doomed Bond to his fate. The problem is his character has gone so off the rails at this point and the little monologue he gives about heartbreak is so flowery, vague and cringeworthy, that for me the impact is lessened. I dunno, if Safin had been more upset, asked Bond why he couldn't just appreciate what he was doing as both men have had their lives ruined by SPECTRE, maybe it would have had more impact. I mean, that's actually the one thing these two men actually have in common. It's all very interesting but the way it's executed lessens it for me.

    Yeah. But I just wanted at least a hint of ambiguity towards Bond's death or something complex that leaves a happy feel. Also, a more engaging confrontation between Bond & Safin...it was just too straightforward for a complex character like Bond.

    Yes, even Fleming, he never killed Bond in the most obvious or straightforward way, each books had always that ambiguous feeling to it.

    Or dare I say it, a vague cliffhanger that leaves audiences up for speculations.

    Well, Fleming definately contemplated killing Bond numerous times. He got sick and tired of the character himself, or, more likely, the success of Bond. In YOLT he basically killed him, only to change his mind and let him drift off and be saved.
    The fact that Bond becomes a father and doesn't know it, goes to Russia on a hunch and finally is send to England to kill of M has a similar darkness to it as NNTD has. I nthat regard I find it quite Fleming-esque. The tragedy of finally getting the family he always craved for, and then not beeing there to enjoy it is right there in both stories.

    In the end, the person is gone, only the hero (the myth) is left.

    Other than many I wasn't prepared for his death, as I managed to stay away from all Bond-related info months before release, and I was indeed shocked and confused. I think it works in the film, I also love the film itself and consider it extremely well made. But I'm still not sure if I like the fact that we got to this point.

    But as I said, if they (officially) move on to the saga-concept, it will mean we'll get stand alone missions again and I'll be quite happy.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2023 Posts: 6,296
    I would have gone with the YOLT amnesia ending as well. Smartblood or the EMP watch worked as a temporary solution for Heracles while a permanent solution was figured out.

    The whole point is that there is no solution...that is the Reason to Die.

    It could have been called No Reason to Die. Conveniently leaving out a comma, for marketing purposes.
  • Posts: 1,985
    @mtm
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Does anyone seriously believe that's the best ending in the franchise? The main character in twenty-five films is blown to bits. If I was supposed have a lump in my throat and feel a little teary-eyed, that didn't happen. The story of Safin's bio weapon seems nothing more than a contrivance that allows DC to exit the series. Five actors before Craig exited the series. None insisted their final appearances be intertwined with the fate of the character they were playing.

    Over and over we are reminded of OHMSS. That was the best ending in the franchise and done with a less accomplished actor than Craig.

    If you believe that the ending where an important character dies and the whole thing ends on a sad note is the best ending, it's surely not that hard to believe that someone else somewhere will believe the same of the other one which is very similar to that?

    I still maintain that Licence To Kill is the one Bond film where James Bond dying would have been worth it. Because Dalton's Bond threw everything at it. It was about getting Sanchez killed or nothing. The way Dalton's Bond jumped on the trucks in the finale, explained that he didn't care about himself, as long as Sanchez dies. Not that I would have liked Dalton's Bond to die, but the film seems like the one Bond's death would have really been worth it, because of how Dalton's Bond went at it all alone. I just didn't feel the same about NTTD.

    It's an interesting thought and I can imagine that, although it would have been a pretty meaningless death.
    What I kind of don't understand is why they didn't kill Felix. What was the point of him surviving?

    You could have simply said yes or no and then followed up with an explanation. The rest really wasn't necessary.
  • I understand not liking the ending, but what other alternative was there? Continuing on the story threads of Craig’s Bond with a new actor? No thank you. This era always broke the rules, might as well go out doing the same thing.
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