Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

mtm

JustJames wrote: »

CommanderRoss wrote: »

TBH I really don't like the YOLT ending Fleming wrote. Yes, most of his work I adore, he was an amazing writer, but this sort of 'reborn' thing just doesn't work for me. I never liked the Bourne-films either in that regard. When you lose your memory, you're not a mindless machine. And I doubt people who lost their memory still retain their skills in that way.

Funnily enough, Jason Bourne is only called Jason Bourne because the writer of the books researched actual cases of amnesiacs — so some people kind of *do* retain their skills that way.

I don't quite follow: do you mean he found someone called Jason Bourne who was a real amnesiac? I always thought it was basically because he thought 'what would James Bond be like if he forgot he was James Bond?', hence the JB initials.

Creasy47

I was wondering the same. I spotted this on Wikipedia:

"ABC News speculated that the name was actually "most likely" inspired by Ansel Bourne, a famous 19th-century psychology case due to his experience of a probable dissociative fugue. Ansel Bourne one day left his previous life and built himself a new life with a new profession elsewhere under a new name ("A. J. Brown"); after two months, he woke up with no memories of this new life, but with memories recovered up to this time and returned to his old life. The rare and controversial dissociative fugue has been described "a state in which an individual has lost their identity" by Harvard psychologist Daniel Schacter. "They don't know who they are, and they've lost all information about their past. They go on functioning automatically.""

mtm

That's very interesting, thank you. I've not heard of that before.

chrisisall

As I have just recently slipped into a bout of depression, I suddenly see the brilliance of NTTD. Must get the blu ray...

CrabKey

chrisisall wrote: »

As I have just recently slipped into a bout of depression, I suddenly see the brilliance of NTTD. Must get the blu ray...

Looking forward to the sequel: No Time To Live in which Bond will definitely be alive at the end of the film.

mtm

I just came across this quote from Alan Moore, which I thought had good relevance on the subject of NTTD, and 007's, ending:

As I mentioned in my introduction to Frank's Dark Knight, one of the things that prevents
superhero stories from ever attaining the status of true modern myths or legends is that
they are open ended. An essential quality of a legend is that the events in it are clearly
defined in time; Robin Hood is driven to become an outlaw by the injustices of King John
and his minions. That is his origin. He meets Little John, Friar Tuck and all the rest and
forms the merry men. He wins the tournament in disguise, he falls in love with Maid
Marian and thwarts the Sheriff of Nottingham. That is his career, including love interest,
Major Villains and the formation of a superhero group that he is part of. He lives to see
the return of Good King Richard and is finally killed by a woman, firing a last arrow to
mark the place where he shall be buried. That is his resolution—you can apply the same
paradigm to King Arthur, Davy Crockett or Sherlock Holmes with equal success. You
cannot apply it to most comic book characters because, in order to meet the commercial
demands of a continuing series, they can never have a resolution. Indeed, they find it
difficult to embrace any of the changes in life that the passage of time brings about for
these very same reasons, making them finally less than fully human as well as falling far
short of true myth.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/lets-all-read-alan-moores-proposal-for-dc-event-comic-twilight-of-the-superheroes/

CommanderRoss

mtm wrote: »

I just came across this quote from Alan Moore, which I thought had good relevance on the subject of NTTD, and 007's, ending:

As I mentioned in my introduction to Frank's Dark Knight, one of the things that prevents
superhero stories from ever attaining the status of true modern myths or legends is that
they are open ended. An essential quality of a legend is that the events in it are clearly
defined in time; Robin Hood is driven to become an outlaw by the injustices of King John
and his minions. That is his origin. He meets Little John, Friar Tuck and all the rest and
forms the merry men. He wins the tournament in disguise, he falls in love with Maid
Marian and thwarts the Sheriff of Nottingham. That is his career, including love interest,
Major Villains and the formation of a superhero group that he is part of. He lives to see
the return of Good King Richard and is finally killed by a woman, firing a last arrow to
mark the place where he shall be buried. That is his resolution—you can apply the same
paradigm to King Arthur, Davy Crockett or Sherlock Holmes with equal success. You
cannot apply it to most comic book characters because, in order to meet the commercial
demands of a continuing series, they can never have a resolution. Indeed, they find it
difficult to embrace any of the changes in life that the passage of time brings about for
these very same reasons, making them finally less than fully human as well as falling far
short of true myth.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/lets-all-read-alan-moores-proposal-for-dc-event-comic-twilight-of-the-superheroes/

I think that's a fair point. The problem is, the public wants open ends, they want their heroes to continue. Look at the series we've had that were bound to end. Fans will stand up and fight against it. I loved Lucifer, the TV series, but they should've ended it after season 2. They didn't, and in the end I lost interest as the stories lost their plot and purpose. I do, however, want Bond to continue. For me he's a saga like Mad Max. Stories of the same person that may have been, or may have been different people who's stories fit with the character and thus becoming one character. But perhaps, to let Bond 'mature', he should be left at NTTD. EON however already promised us more...

mtm

We'll get more, but that doesn't mean he can't have a resolution. We get more Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood after all.

RichardTheBruce

Yeah have it both ways is good for me.

An end makes for myth and legend at long last. Then just start it again. No harm no foul.

CrabKey

Bond already had that going for him. Killing him off served no purpose other than to serve a script that could be gone in other directions.

Reflsin2bourbons

There's certainly better ways to go about killing Bond, but nothing's wrong with killing him. I feel as if Bond's death should be accompanied with the Bond theme, a triumphant recognition of Bond's service/death for the greater good of his nation or even the world. A small scale death like the one done in NTTD doesn't do this sort of thing justice.

RichardTheBruce

Depends on the execution of course.

Can be the difference between dialing in on a focus for the Bond character. Or him getting lost in a large scale assault on the villain's lair.

CrabKey

I think the film will be remembered as, "Oh, yeah, wasn't that the film where they killed Bond?" The Paloma scene was great, but was that enough to make the film one of the standouts in Bond film history? It's certainly doesn't rank up there with CR. I like the film, but I don't believe it's particularly memorable. Whatever blaze of glory the producers and DC were hoping Bond to go out on, I don't think it did.

Jordo007

I don't think Bond could have died in combat, I think it had to be like a missile strike or something massive scale such as that. On last rewatch I noticed the irony of Bond dying at the hands of MI6 rather than an enemy

CommanderRoss

CrabKey wrote: »

I think the film will be remembered as, "Oh, yeah, wasn't that the film where they killed Bond?" The Paloma scene was great, but was that enough to make the film one of the standouts in Bond film history? It's certainly doesn't rank up there with CR. I like the film, but I don't believe it's particularly memorable. Whatever blaze of glory the producers and DC were hoping Bond to go out on, I don't think it did.

I'm not sure. I thought it was an extremely well made film, and the story sort of works, allthough I'm not much of a fan of these nanobots things. But who knows, we might be closer to it in reality than I think. I find the film far sperior to at least SP, and maybe even SF. On the whole, it is one of the best films imo. But with 26 films, it's rather hard to get to the top spot. For me, QoS, TB, FRWL, LALD, CR are all fantastic films.

007HallY

I wouldn't dismiss NTTD's memorability just yet. I mean, in truth I don't think any Bond film has been unmemorable in the eyes of the fandom, and there's that old saying that 'every Bond film is at least one person's favourite in the series'. For a chunk of people NTTD is the first Bond film they watched in the cinema (perhaps even their first in general). It'll certainly resonate with them. Having grown up with the Craig era it certainly bookends his Bond's story for me.

I'm not saying it's my favourite Bond film at all, and I have my issues with it. But I don't think I can personally say it's unmemorable.

meshypushy

CrabKey wrote: »

I think the film will be remembered as, "Oh, yeah, wasn't that the film where they killed Bond?" The Paloma scene was great, but was that enough to make the film one of the standouts in Bond film history? It's certainly doesn't rank up there with CR. I like the film, but I don't believe it's particularly memorable. Whatever blaze of glory the producers and DC were hoping Bond to go out on, I don't think it did.

This is pretty much how I feel about NTTD - the ending in particular, for me, was a decent idea badly executed. Here is this character who is a major part of my life being blown to bits and my reaction is ‘meh’ (my reaction to the final scene is a groan and an eye roll). I have no emotional investment in the ending whatsoever.
It’s a decent movie up to the London scene but goes downhill for me there onwards. It definitely bottom 1/3 of all Bonds and the ending is my biggest issue with the movie (its execution, not the idea, which I am not onboard with but could live with it if it was done effectively). Give me the CR ending or even the bloody talking parrot from FYEO over NTTD’s ending!

echo

I love the movie but think Bond's death could have done with a bit more self-sacrifice/ticking clock. Just anything, like Bond needs to hold the blast doors open or puts a missile tracking device on himself to save other people nearby.

Think of May Day in AVTAK, one of the best self-sacrifice examples I can think of in the franchise.

Come to think of it, what happened to all of the people in Safin's base? They seem to just vanish.

meshypushy

echo wrote: »

I love the movie but think Bond's death could have done with a bit more self-sacrifice/ticking clock. Just anything, like Bond needs to hold the blast doors open or puts a missile tracking device on himself to save other people nearby.

Think of May Day in AVTAK, one of the best self-sacrifice examples I can think of in the franchise.

Come to think of it, what happened to all of the people in Safin's base? They seem to just vanish.

Absolutely - May Day’s ending was much more effective, in an otherwise lighter and dumber movie. Doudou + Rockets didn’t do it for me.

Since62

I agree that NTTD had the best ending in the franchise. So much so that I think the the next, say, 7 films or so all should end with Bond kicking the bucket. We could have the return of various Bond actors, older actors, non-traditional choices - all included because each would get just one film. Then, when people are used to it - surprise ! Bond survive, which, of course, at that time would be considered quite controversial.

QBranch

Since62 wrote: »

I think the the next, say, 7 films or so all should end with Bond kicking the bucket.

On one of those occasions, Bond can die after smoking his sixtieth for the day, which no doubt will appeal to Fleming purists and fans touched by seeing their hero cark it - not to mention the return of 'gritty realism'. Sounds like there's something for everyone to enjoy.

mtm

Watching the end, in their big confrontation in the kneeling scene, I do think I can tell that Malek just isn't matching Craig. Bardem did it perfectly, Mikkelsen too, and Waltz was fine but didn't quite have the material perhaps, but Malek just isn't on the same level.

BT3366

CommanderRoss wrote: »

mtm wrote: »

I just came across this quote from Alan Moore, which I thought had good relevance on the subject of NTTD, and 007's, ending:

As I mentioned in my introduction to Frank's Dark Knight, one of the things that prevents
superhero stories from ever attaining the status of true modern myths or legends is that
they are open ended. An essential quality of a legend is that the events in it are clearly
defined in time; Robin Hood is driven to become an outlaw by the injustices of King John
and his minions. That is his origin. He meets Little John, Friar Tuck and all the rest and
forms the merry men. He wins the tournament in disguise, he falls in love with Maid
Marian and thwarts the Sheriff of Nottingham. That is his career, including love interest,
Major Villains and the formation of a superhero group that he is part of. He lives to see
the return of Good King Richard and is finally killed by a woman, firing a last arrow to
mark the place where he shall be buried. That is his resolution—you can apply the same
paradigm to King Arthur, Davy Crockett or Sherlock Holmes with equal success. You
cannot apply it to most comic book characters because, in order to meet the commercial
demands of a continuing series, they can never have a resolution. Indeed, they find it
difficult to embrace any of the changes in life that the passage of time brings about for
these very same reasons, making them finally less than fully human as well as falling far
short of true myth.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/lets-all-read-alan-moores-proposal-for-dc-event-comic-twilight-of-the-superheroes/

I think that's a fair point. The problem is, the public wants open ends, they want their heroes to continue. Look at the series we've had that were bound to end. Fans will stand up and fight against it. I loved Lucifer, the TV series, but they should've ended it after season 2. They didn't, and in the end I lost interest as the stories lost their plot and purpose. I do, however, want Bond to continue. For me he's a saga like Mad Max. Stories of the same person that may have been, or may have been different people who's stories fit with the character and thus becoming one character. But perhaps, to let Bond 'mature', he should be left at NTTD. EON however already promised us more...

Great point with Lucifer. Caught it on Netflix and loved the character and the stories despite it being the mismatched love interest. Then, as you mentioned, they had to get them together, bring in the evil twin, some of which was tolerable. But the absolute end for me was the fake daughter thing that nailed my loss of interest.

M16_Cart

Be wary of recency bias.

The most recent Bond film generally shouldn't be considered the best or worst at anything until time has proven itself.

Librarian

M16_Cart wrote: »

Be wary of recency bias.

The most recent Bond film generally shouldn't be considered the best or worst at anything until time has proven itself.

Exactly!

DarthDimi

M16_Cart wrote: »

Be wary of recency bias.

The most recent Bond film generally shouldn't be considered the best or worst at anything until time has proven itself.

Wise words, @M16_Cart.
I remember the years between DAD and CR. In this very community (that is, its predecessor), DAD was generally considered the worst of the worst, an insult even greater than farting in church. Nowadays, DAD seems to have found renewed appreciation. And though the film may never be many fans' number 1 Bond flick, some are willing to defend DAD as far from the worst Bond film ever made.

Back then, it was all about the terrible CGI, the robot suit, the obnoxious "tip" puns, Yo Momma, Jinx in general (everything Jinx was considered worse than never changing your underwear), and the invisible car. Tamahori was written as "Tamawhori"; Halle Berry was despised, and even poor Pierce was butchered. Today it's all about family man Bond, death by nanobots, death of 007, not enough Paloma and too much everything else, too long a film, and so on.

I'd say we give it another five to ten years.

Simon

DarthDimi wrote: »

I remember the years between DAD and CR. In this very community (that is, its predecessor), DAD was generally considered the worst of the worst, an insult even greater than farting in church.

Back then, it was all about the terrible CGI, the robot suit, the obnoxious "tip" puns, Yo Momma, Jinx in general (everything Jinx was considered worse than never changing your underwear), and the invisible car.

It was true then, its true now ;)

Nowadays, DAD seems to have found renewed appreciation.

DarthDimi

Simon wrote: »

DarthDimi wrote: »

I remember the years between DAD and CR. In this very community (that is, its predecessor), DAD was generally considered the worst of the worst, an insult even greater than farting in church.

Back then, it was all about the terrible CGI, the robot suit, the obnoxious "tip" puns, Yo Momma, Jinx in general (everything Jinx was considered worse than never changing your underwear), and the invisible car.

It was true then, its true now ;)

Nowadays, DAD seems to have found renewed appreciation.

Oh hey, @Simon! :-) Yes, you were there. Good ol' days, huh. Luds, you, ... Christ, I miss the old forum.

Simon

DarthDimi wrote: »

Oh hey, @Simon! :-) Yes, you were there. Good ol' days, huh. Luds, you, ... Christ, I miss the old forum.

Remembered VERY fondly @DarthDimi , but not really missed for me! It really was just a group of (mostly) guys who were mates, and some occasional Bond talk broke out, and even that was largely rehashed bickering!! Even I grew tired of it before the big change, and as stubborn, argumentative buggers go, I was up there with the best of them :D Only thing I slightly regret is losing touch with pretty much everyone from that time.

DarthDimi

@Simon, if bashing DAD is all it takes to keep you here, I'll happily oblige. 😉