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That's a bold shout mate. Do you mean in your personal opinion or general consensus?
Not sure it would be top 5 if Bond had survived the ending, but it would be definitely higher than where I have it ranked right now....
24. DAD
(bottom of the barrel)...
(much lower than the bottom of the barrel, depths of the earth)....
(the earth's core)
(the earth's basement....next floor down is Entrance to Hades)
25. NTTD
Little did we know, eh?
My personal opinion. But that's rubbish in the general consensus since I have both MR and DAF in my top 10
Ahh okay I see, thanks for clarifying mate.
I think you're right if I'm honest, there's still bits I'd change before the ending, but the vibe in Matera and Jamaica is perfect and Paloma is a wonderful ally. I love the shootout in Safin's base too
The movie could be titled The Death of James Bond.
Yeah. The Cuba sequence in NTTD looks Bondian, but lacks tension. The short fight scene at the casino in Skyfall, feels more intense because of the feel of danger. The Cuba sequence in NTTD is just repetitive shootout styles, because Fukunaga doesn't do many peculiar things with Bond. That's why the forest scene in Norway also lacks invention. Only Matera and the Bunker shootout had invention or Bond doing something unique. Hopefully, if EON want the Cuba feel in Bond 26, the director would understand the peculiar style and atmosphere of Bond.
Fair enough. I think for me Carlyle's an actor who does violent psychopaths better than what we're led to believe Renard is (that's to say someone more enticing - still a violent psychopath no doubt but a charismatic and even charming one). While I get that with the Elektra plot twist in mind the brainwashed lackey kind of makes sense, I think it would have been more impactful if we'd have seen that type of Renard being manipulated by Elektra. If the character has been played by, say, a young Javier Bardem I think the idea of this man being struck down in his prime by a terminal injury would have come through more, and his reasoning for falling for Elektra and wanting to cause a major attack would have felt more sympathetic (or at least understandable). In the film we get I just always get the feeling that Renard is weird loner who's punching above his weight, and the death sentence hanging over him gets a bit lost.
Yep, agree entirely. Cuba is sort of fun, but there's nothing very unique or interesting going on, it's just punching and shooting, as you say. I think the idea of Bond and Nomi grabbing Valdo off each other in turn had the potential to be a bit more playful and interesting; I can imagine them getting more frustrated and yet amused at each time he's snatched from them, make it more of a dance maybe; but it never really takes off. They feel a bit limited to that set- maybe it needed to be more of a chase. And maybe Paloma actually confuses it a bit: she's great but perhaps it needed to be more of a two-hander between Bond and Nomi? Valdo is kind of the Egypt microfilm in NTTD: if Bond and Anya had been trying to get it off each other but Bond had another girl along for the ride it would spoil the screwball dynamic.
Definitely agree about the Norway chase too; there's nothing much there. The Bond theme doesn't get played much in this film, not because Zimmer doesn't want to, but because Bond doesn't really do much to justify it getting played.
I'm not down on NTTD: it's a good film. But SecretAgentMan is right I think that it misses that Bond sensibility: I think QoS is the same, it just doesn't quite feel Bondy to me somehow, where Craig's other three do.
I suppose what makes that part work better than what we get a bit later is that it genuinely feels like Bond is out of his depth here, and that he might not make it out of this very strange (but dangerous) situation. Once he starts running around and fighting goons Bond almost becomes a part of the absurdity and that tension is extinguished slightly (ie. we see him and Paloma shooting in what appears to be weirdly choreographed movements, Craig's elaborate reactions after Bond falls into the bar etc.) Not to say that's bad necessarily - you can argue after the horrifying moment of seeing the SPECTRE agents dying that light reprieve was needed. But I do think there has to be a believability to even the most absurd Bond sequences, and Bond has to feel like a fish out of water, often gaining the upper hand by instinctually using what's around him mixed with brute force.
The sequence I always cite is the tank chase from GE. It's certainly not as stylised as the Cuba sequence (and in a way it makes it feel more plausible) but it genuinely feels like Bond is in danger, and even with the absurdity of Bond being able to commandeer a tank (even if the thing had a key in it, there's no reason he'd be able to operate it) it feels tense. We don't need to cut to Bond inside the tank making confused faces at the operating system or comedically fumbling around but still inexplicably being able to operate it smoothly. It's a sequence which takes its absurdity seriously, and I'd argue the best Bond sequences do too fundamentally. I think in some instances Craig's last two films faltered by trying to add too much humour to some of their sequences (the SP Italy chase is an example in my opinion).
What if it ended with Bond escaping the island, reuniting with Madeline and Mathilde. Then we get the scene with at the time with M and Prince Charles in the office with Mathilde and Madeline waiting outside in the Volante. Bond gets in and says "where to?" Madeline says "Home" and that's it.
I loved most of everything that the film provided up until the death of Bond.
I suppose Bond isn't a character who can get that kind of ending. In a different film it could end by having a fling with the Bond girl, but inevitably they're going to part ways offscreen. In both the books and later films he gets the chance at a life outside the Service but is always brought back.
For NTTD to work without Bond's death you can't really have Mathilde, and Bond and Madeline would have to part ways. But arguably you'd then have to forgo the idea of Bond being explicitly in his early 50s/at retirement age for his profession (realistically he's not going to return to MI6 afterwards). So yeah, NTTD is a film built around the finality of Craig Bond's death... for better or for worse.
I don't mind the deep water line. I suppose it comes right as Bond realises M is dying so it's not a gag designed to land in that way. It's just a momentary character reprieve from what's just happened before M collapses and Bond rushes to her (and to be fair Craig plays it that way - just a little off the cuff line. It's not meant to be side splitting. For me it's closer in spirit to Connery's 'shocking, positively shocking' line in GF. Connery actually plays the line straight and even gives the girl a dirty look. It's not meant to be hilarious as such, just darkly humorous).
The humour in the SP Italy chase doesn't work for me because it's designed in part to nullify the tension of what's happening (or at least contrast with it). Bond flicking a button and having random music start playing is an example of that. You can't really have that type of elaborate gag in the middle of a heart pounding chase sequence without undercutting it. As I said, I think sometimes these sequences in Bond films are better played straight even if they have that tinge of absurdity. Shame as I actually like the concept of Bond's rockets not being loaded. It's a good little idea that's funny enough but also adds that element of stakes to the chase. But even then I don't like the reaction from Bond (it's sort an eye roll and 'you've got to be kidding me' from what I remember. I think that's actually a moment that would have been better played straight from Craig with a pissed off look or something).
I think the Happy Families Ever After ending would be just unrewarding for me, personally. If they wanted a darker, more shocking ending, I personally would have had Mathilde and Madeline be the ones killed off, and leave it open ended on if Bond was broken, retired, etc.
That said, CR did Vesper's death and 'quitting', QoS ended on Vesper again, Skyfall killed M, Spectre did 'quitting', so having NTTD trying another take on the dead character/Bond quitting routine would probably have been predictable. They 'subverted expectations' every time with DC to the point that it was boring and expected. Also, there is no way in hell EoN would kill a child in a film these days!
I have to disagree and agree here. The Skyfall casino fight felt out of place in that film and totally lacked any suspense or tension. The entrance and the meeting with Severine were good and very Bondian, save for Craig's "All there is" line. That just felt off. The big Oddjob type of villain and the Komodo dragon seemed like tropes and out of a Moore film.
The Cuba shootout wasn't distinctive but was at least kind of fun with an unexpected companion. On the opposite end, the bunker shootout was repetitive, went on forever and felt more like a video game than a film. A Bond movie shouldn't imitate a video game where you're trying to get him to reach another level.
The Norway sequence was pretty much a waste, nothing at all distinctive there. It gave me Return of the Jedi Forest Moon of Endor vibes. That part of the film practically begged for a unique action sequence after all the domestic drama stuff and we got a routine chase and shootout.
Yeah, it's very tricky. I do like the idea of Bond ringing Moneypenny frantically during the chase though to impart information to her (I mean, it's very likely he could be killed and he'd obviously want to notify someone he trusts). But it's played very strangely with a bizarre lighthearted tone. Bond doesn't seem to be too phased by the chase after a point and he even asks what Moneypenny is doing with a man at this time of night in a sort of teasing way. Very odd misplaced moment.
There could have been a funny little moment in there, but it'd be better played in a way more similar to the 'switch the bloody machine off' line in LTK. Like, Moneypenny wakes up the guy and gets distracted momentarily while Bond is on the other end getting increasingly agitated and having to escape during the chase.
Yeah. I think it's quite Bond to be rather unflappable and joking in the middle of a car chase, but I also think the audience just aren't really up for it- we just want the chase to be happening. And that means they're not taking the information in. Plus you're right that it kills the tension, no matter how in character it is for 007.
I'm afraid I also think the stunt driving or action direction isn't very good in that sequence: they're just doing big graceful powerslides, they're showboating instead of looking like they're actually driving fast, it doesn't convince. Look at something like the car escape in Fallout in Paris in the old BMW: Cruise is driving frantically, he's sliding the car occasionally, but only in a rally fashion enough to get around the corner- that's a superspy doing some expert driving. When you're sliding the car more than you need to get round a bend, you're not driving it well, and neither Bond nor Hinx are driving well, they're showing off.
That's the same ending as SP. I can see why they didn't want to repeat themselves, also they're making a point that Bond would ultimately die young and serving his country (something Fleming often said as well).
I know Zimmer likes to take samples of music and other cues, I wonder if he drove them to use it or whether the producers or director made the call. I dislike the theme from OHMSS creeping into the M River Thames scene too.
Okay rant over, I believe the ending of NTTD could have been better with some different creative choices.
I guess it was the producers; the OHMSS theme was featured in SP's trailer and the Bind 25 recap trailer from April 2019, both made before Zimmer's involvement.
Agreed about it being totally displaced in the Thames scene.
Like @SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ said Newman composed as few lovely pieces that could embody Madeleine's theme more than OHMSS's reuse.
I believe NTTD would have been better served having Hans Zimmer on the project sooner, his version of the Bond theme, That's Not What I Expected and Final Ascent are masterpieces. I can only imagine what we would have created for Bond and Madeleine perhaps if he'd been given more time
That's a good point to be fair, EON do have form for this. I remember reading they wanted use the YOLT instrumental at the end of DAD, and David Arnold persuaded them to allow him to make something similar instead