Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    it'd be like the Bond girl in Bond 26 having Vespers theme as her cue
    Yeh, perfectly put - can't say it better than that.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    Interesting, with each complaint, I'm starting to like the ending better. I love the fact that they used the OHMSS music. First, it's a huge nod to a film that's not had the official regognition it deserves. Second, it ties into the 'saga' concept of Bond. Stories about a man who is/was a hero of our and previous times, who'se virtues and vices hve always been similar, and who's saved the world time and time again. It's even underlined by Madeleine's final words in the film:'let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond'. It orks, and it makes it possible for new saga's about this enigmatic man who might be the same, or not.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    It's also a brave and bold ending, to kill off the hero definitely, unlike other fake-outs I can think of (TDKR).
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I’m in the same boat as @CommanderRoss and @echo . Not only my favourite ending, but, my favourite Bond film. I know, this makes me a fraud of a Bond fan. I should stick my head in the ground with embarrassment….
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    edited June 11 Posts: 154
    Interesting, with each complaint, I'm starting to like the ending better. I love the fact that they used the OHMSS music. First, it's a huge nod to a film that's not had the official regognition it deserves.

    A nod I could live with. Pilfering a moment of such iconic relevance overstepped for me. I fully believe Tracy and Bond had a connection; would the marriage have lasted? Probably not. Just look at their personalities!! But love? Sure. Madeline on the other hand was just another middle-distance-staring, largely miserable bore. I don't think even in the best film in the world would OHMSS music be fitting. It definitely didn't work here.
    It's even underlined by Madeleine's final words in the film:'let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond'.

    "Let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond. He killed your grandfather, and nearly got me killed numerous times. There was this one time he did save me from being strapped to a building rigged to explode, but that was only after I left him in the street because I didnt want the life he would provide. We did hook up about 10 minutes later though. He abandoned me while pregnant due to chronic trust issues, even after 5 years together, and was still hung up on an ex-girlfriend he knew for a few days over a decade ago."





    Sorry, I know thats facetious in the extreme, I just really hate the ending and can't help getting a little OTT :D

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    "Let me tell you about a man named James Bond. I slept with him for money, then he went out with me because my dad told him he'd give him some information on a gangster that he wanted. We had a montage in which we rode horses and sat by a fountain. I fell in love with him because of the horses or something, but he got the information he needed and left. Then I rescued him in a snowy town and he said he fell in love with me then. We got married shortly after and I got murdered, then he went and shacked up with a diamond smuggler and let Moneypenny get away with a joke about engagement rings"
  • Posts: 1,078
    echo wrote: »
    It's also a brave and bold ending

    'Brave and bold' would have been killing off Bond, and ending the series. To kill him off then say he'll be back later in another film . . . in the same film he dies in, is neither brave or bold.
    More like barmy old bollocks. If you want a bit of alliteration with 'yer Vespa.

    Greatest ending? What a joke!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named James Bond. I slept with him for money, then he went out with me because my dad told him he'd give him some information on a gangster that he wanted. We had a montage in which we rode horses and sat by a fountain. I fell in love with him because of the horses or something, but he got the information he needed and left. Then I rescued him in a snowy town and he said he fell in love with me then. We got married shortly after and I got murdered, then he went and shacked up with a diamond smuggler and let Moneypenny get away with a joke about engagement rings"

    I think I felt the tremors of twitching eyes, and heard the thumping explosions of angry people spontaneously combusting around the world, @mtm 😂...
  • mtm wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named James Bond. I slept with him for money, then he went out with me because my dad told him he'd give him some information on a gangster that he wanted. We had a montage in which we rode horses and sat by a fountain. I fell in love with him because of the horses or something, but he got the information he needed and left. Then I rescued him in a snowy town and he said he fell in love with me then. We got married shortly after and I got murdered, then he went and shacked up with a diamond smuggler and let Moneypenny get away with a joke about engagement rings"

    Bit disingenuous to leave out the whole "he saved me from suicide" bit...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    mtm wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named James Bond. I slept with him for money, then he went out with me because my dad told him he'd give him some information on a gangster that he wanted. We had a montage in which we rode horses and sat by a fountain. I fell in love with him because of the horses or something, but he got the information he needed and left. Then I rescued him in a snowy town and he said he fell in love with me then. We got married shortly after and I got murdered, then he went and shacked up with a diamond smuggler and let Moneypenny get away with a joke about engagement rings"

    Bit disingenuous to leave out the whole "he saved me from suicide" bit...

    Okay; ‘I was suffering from serious mental illness and became dangerously fixated on the man who stopped me killing myself, whom I then slept with for money’ etc. ;)
  • Posts: 1,985
    Others have argued it's the only ending possible given the story. But stories begin with a blank page and this story could have gone in other directions. I don't see the bravery and boldness. I recognize the ending works for others, but for me it lands with a thud. Following it up with the traditional JBWR makes the death seem almost a gimmick.

    Also, do we have any idea why Vesper is buried in Italy rather than France?

  • edited June 11 Posts: 1,078
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Following it up with the traditional JBWR makes the death seem almost a gimmick.

    Almost?

  • Posts: 1,985
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 11 Posts: 3,152
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Also, do we have any idea why Vesper is buried in Italy rather than France?
    Isn't it her mother's family tomb? There's several inscriptions for a Saviani family, including 'Elena Saviani ved. Lynd', the 'ved' being short for 'vedova', meaning something like 'the widow of'. Er, so I'm told. Presumably, that's Vesper's mother, so Vesper's half-Italian and wanted to be interred with her mamma. And it's an excuse to film a sequence in Matera, obvs.

    No-Time-to-Die-Vesper-Lynd-grave2-768x1024.jpg.webp
  • Posts: 1,985
    Thanks for that info.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    At least we didn't have laughter when Bond and Tracy first slept with each other. I still recall the laughs when Bond and Swann slept with each other after the dispatching of Hinx on the deserted train.

    I never bought the Swann and Bond love story, it got somewhat rescued in NTTD but still lacking. Some think taking All the Time in the World and playing it in this move is fine. I don't ascribe to that view. It is a cheat, meant to show or should I say tell us that Bond and Swann are similar to Tracy and Bond. I remember the producers saying this Bond was re-booted from the previous Bond character. That he was fresh and new. Suddenly we have him driving an Aston Martin with an ejector seat. Then we introduce a song that was connected to the very character they say this one isn't connected to?

    I maintain they should have commissioned a current talent to write a suitable song for Swann and Bond. I didn't cry when Tracy dies, but my heart aches. A character I have known since the mid seventies dies, or as the producers want a character I have known since 2006 dies and I feel nothing. Nothing but anger that they disrespected the character so much.
  • Posts: 1,985
    @thedove - It's inescapable. WHATTITW recalls Bond and Tracy. It's not Madeleine's song. Why are we being reminded of another film with a better ending? Agree, there should have been a Swan(n) song. Maybe Time Won't Let Me by The Outsiders or No Time by Guess Who. Perhaps something like If We Had All the Time in the World.

    But seriously. I truly respect artistry and talent. But I don't have to like or agree with the decisions of the writers and producers. That they have an enviable track record of successes does not persuade me otherwise.

    Hearing the music of OHMSS took me back to that film instead on focusing me on the one I was viewing. Of course we'll never know, but could the ending of NTTD worked as well with another song? Had there been an original love theme at the end, it wouldn't have occurred to me that WHATTITW should have taken its place.

    The callbacks to CR were appropriate. In the end I wasn't angry about anything. Two weak villains, another poor adaptation of YOLT, and killing Bond left me with What Were They Thinking?

    Looking ahead, I would like to hear a contemporary version of the 007 Theme again.
  • Posts: 3,327
    peter wrote: »
    I’m in the same boat as @CommanderRoss and @echo . Not only my favourite ending, but, my favourite Bond film. I know, this makes me a fraud of a Bond fan. I should stick my head in the ground with embarrassment….

    You should be ashamed of yourself. Go get some therapy...
  • Posts: 1,985
    @Peter - Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on why you consider yourself a fraud of a Bond fan. (Not that I for a second believe you believe that about yourself.)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @jetsetwilly , your post was the first thing I read today, and gave me a genuine chuckle (although, some people may agree with your suggestion, 😂)!

    @CrabKey , just attempting a bit of self deprecating humour (especially since my opinion isn't a very popular one by some members here, so might as well lean into what I love, while also taking the p!$s out of myself)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,117
    No worries, @peter! I sometimes wonder the same when I'm defending entries like DAF, TMWTGG, TWINE, DAD or SP :))

  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,587
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    No worries, @peter! I sometimes wonder the same when I'm defending entries like DAF, TMWTGG, TWINE, DAD or SP :))

    I'll defend DAF, MR and SP to the death as well.

    Side note- I didn't care for WHATTITW in the film. However, I smiled when the OHMSS theme played during Bond and M's meeting outside. It sort of symbolizes Bond returning one more time to defend Her Majesty's Service and rekindled the Bond/M dynamic that was temporarily destroyed in the previous office meeting.
  • Posts: 1,985
    Agree. The OHMSS works whereas WHATTITW does not.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    No worries, @peter! I sometimes wonder the same when I'm defending entries like DAF, TMWTGG, TWINE, DAD or SP :))

    Thanks @GoldenGun !

    😂, it’s nice to not be a lonely island, 😂!!!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    No worries, @peter! I sometimes wonder the same when I'm defending entries like DAF, TMWTGG, TWINE, DAD or SP :))

    I'll defend DAF, MR and SP to the death as well.

    Side note- I didn't care for WHATTITW in the film. However, I smiled when the OHMSS theme played during Bond and M's meeting outside. It sort of symbolizes Bond returning one more time to defend Her Majesty's Service and rekindled the Bond/M dynamic that was temporarily destroyed in the previous office meeting.

    Yeah, if it popped up again to symbolise MI6 or M or Bond's duty in future I wouldn't be too upset: it works well for that. And I can't be upset at hearing John Barry!
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 95
    If they didn't want Ziimmer to create new romantic pieces, then they should have brought back Thomas Newman's Secret Room & Madeleine tracks from SP. Those tracks would have been enough to cover romantically, as those tracks were really good. Just let Zimmer give the tracks his own touch, if he doesn't want to copy and paste the very exact thing. If done this way, they would have avoided using the sacred We Have All The Time In The World & OHMSS Theme. Even building on the first 30 seconds of Zimmer's Matera track as a romantic identity throughout the film, would have been good and original, combined with the instrumentals of Eilish's theme tune.
    +1.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 12 Posts: 2,016
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I'm not sure it was a question of time. It was a very distinct evoking of a previous film that tied into the themes of NTTD. I believe they still would have done it regardless of time.

    That's a good point to be fair, EON do have form for this. I remember reading they wanted use the YOLT instrumental at the end of DAD, and David Arnold persuaded them to allow him to make something similar instead

    Yes. Being a knowledgeable Bond fan, Arnold knows how sacred some pieces of Bond music are. He himself reused music from Dr. No & FRWL in his TND score and it worked. Even Newman briefly used Barry's Thunderball Bond theme in his Westminster Bridge track from SP's score and it also worked. Maybe Zimmer didn't want to argue much with EON or he didn't really see anything wrong with reusing certain old Bond music or he was just happy to join the historical echelon of Bond composers. His action music was superb for the series and Craig's Bond, though.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    mtm wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named James Bond. I slept with him for money, then he went out with me because my dad told him he'd give him some information on a gangster that he wanted. We had a montage in which we rode horses and sat by a fountain. I fell in love with him because of the horses or something, but he got the information he needed and left. Then I rescued him in a snowy town and he said he fell in love with me then. We got married shortly after and I got murdered, then he went and shacked up with a diamond smuggler and let Moneypenny get away with a joke about engagement rings"

    Ha! Fair enough :D Still think OHMSS lands it better than NTTD as a believable relationship though, doomed as it was no matter what happened. Believable relationship, not successful relationship!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 12 Posts: 16,382
    I'm kind of surprised to be honest, I think the way they're acting in the hotel in Matera actually feels rather nice and touching to me- his reaction to the 'over your shoulder' bit and 'are we going to have a row about this?' - for the first time in years James Bond feels like a real person there. And him making his promise to Madeline- it genuinely feels to me like a deeper relationship than we've seen in a 007 film before. The closest to this was probably when Bond and Vesper walked out of that Venice hotel arm in arm for me.
    I like OHMSS as much as the next guy, but it feels like a movie love affair to me: there's more artifice there. She falls in love via a montage; it just gets turned on like a switch is flicked in the script. And zero chemistry of course- as wonderful as Rigg is and as easy for me to fall in love with as she is, no one could have chemistry with Lazenby onscreen. I like them, but in terms of a believable relationship, there's more in Matera which seems familar and relatable than anything in Piz Gloria to me.
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    Fair points, and I see where you come from. And to be fair I have only managed NTTD a few times, including none in the last 18 months or so, so perhaps my increasingly unreliable memory is playing tricks on me - but within the same PTS, we go from the 'over your shoulder' moments that did point to a believable, strong relationship, and threw it away before Billie Eilish could warble out a note.

    We're still trotting out the Vesper plot like it is as fresh to Bond now as it was when it happened over a decade earlier (and character believability aside, I think the Vesper arc should have been completely severed after QoS).

    And then after all their time together together, Bond pretty easily accepts Madeline betrayed him.

    She then misses a time window wide enough to get a DeLorean up to 88mph to tell Bond that she is pregnant.

    The same PTS has Bond/Madeline as a happy couple; Bond/Madeline both hung up on Vesper; Bond/Madeline having enormous trust issues.

    I also find Madeline to be quite a dull person across SP and NTTD. We're delving deep into personal taste here, but there is nothing about her character that makes me see what Bond saw in her. Would Tracy have been My Type? No. Can I see how she would be to someone else? Yes. I just don't get that with Swann.

    And can this be tidily explained away in-character without much fuss? Absolutely, and I am glad for those who see it that way! It's just one of those things. I really wanted to like this film, and despite what my posts may read like, I do genuinely try to find the good in them, but I think NTTD, Madeline, Mathilde, Bond dying, etc, all packaged in NTTD is an acquired taste I don't have.
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