Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm kind of surprised to be honest, I think the way they're acting in the hotel in Matera actually feels rather nice and touching to me- his reaction to the 'over your shoulder' bit and 'are we going to have a row about this?' - for the first time in years James Bond feels like a real person there. And him making his promise to Madeline- it genuinely feels to me like a deeper relationship than we've seen in a 007 film before. The closest to this was probably when Bond and Vesper walked out of that Venice hotel arm in arm for me.
    I like OHMSS as much as the next guy, but it feels like a movie love affair to me: there's more artifice there. She falls in love via a montage; it just gets turned on like a switch is flicked in the script. And zero chemistry of course- as wonderful as Rigg is and as easy for me to fall in love with as she is, no one could have chemistry with Lazenby onscreen. I like them, but in terms of a believable relationship, there's more in Matera which seems familar and relatable than anything in Piz Gloria to me.

    We did a worst screen couple and I put Rigg and Laz up for nomination and I got lambasted for it. Funny how some see chemistry and others don't.

    Lets face it in a 2 hour movie or 2 1/2 hour movie we are going to have to "buy" the romance and relationship. The script needs to provide chances for the audience to see and buy the romance. SP suffered because there wasn't enough there to buy Bond and Swann falling in love. NTTD rectifies that somewhat. I didn't buy that this was the one great love of Bond. That's my reading. Therefore the ending lacks a certain punch to the gut. I feel nothing when he's chatting to her for the last time. I should feel something but I felt nothing.
  • NoTimeToLiveNoTimeToLive Jamaica
    Posts: 95
    Simon wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond. He killed your grandfather, and nearly got me killed numerous times. There was this one time he did save me from being strapped to a building rigged to explode, but that was only after I left him in the street because I didnt want the life he would provide. We did hook up about 10 minutes later though. He abandoned me while pregnant due to chronic trust issues, even after 5 years together, and was still hung up on an ex-girlfriend he knew for a few days over a decade ago."

    When did they ever say that Bond and Madeleine spent five years together? Why would it take Madeleine this long to take Bond "home"?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited June 13 Posts: 6,296
    Simon wrote: »
    Fair points, and I see where you come from. And to be fair I have only managed NTTD a few times, including none in the last 18 months or so, so perhaps my increasingly unreliable memory is playing tricks on me - but within the same PTS, we go from the 'over your shoulder' moments that did point to a believable, strong relationship, and threw it away before Billie Eilish could warble out a note.

    We're still trotting out the Vesper plot like it is as fresh to Bond now as it was when it happened over a decade earlier (and character believability aside, I think the Vesper arc should have been completely severed after QoS).

    And then after all their time together together, Bond pretty easily accepts Madeline betrayed him.

    She then misses a time window wide enough to get a DeLorean up to 88mph to tell Bond that she is pregnant.

    Presumably, Madeleine is wondering if Bond is father material in that moment and if she should tell him.

    I agree about Vesper, though. They should have dropped her storyline after QoS. I loved her in the role (and I know it's Flemingesque to bring her up) but 2021 (or 2020) is a *long* way from 2006. Poor Vesper drowned and then her tomb got blown up? A bit much.
  • thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm kind of surprised to be honest, I think the way they're acting in the hotel in Matera actually feels rather nice and touching to me- his reaction to the 'over your shoulder' bit and 'are we going to have a row about this?' - for the first time in years James Bond feels like a real person there. And him making his promise to Madeline- it genuinely feels to me like a deeper relationship than we've seen in a 007 film before. The closest to this was probably when Bond and Vesper walked out of that Venice hotel arm in arm for me.
    I like OHMSS as much as the next guy, but it feels like a movie love affair to me: there's more artifice there. She falls in love via a montage; it just gets turned on like a switch is flicked in the script. And zero chemistry of course- as wonderful as Rigg is and as easy for me to fall in love with as she is, no one could have chemistry with Lazenby onscreen. I like them, but in terms of a believable relationship, there's more in Matera which seems familar and relatable than anything in Piz Gloria to me.

    We did a worst screen couple and I put Rigg and Laz up for nomination and I got lambasted for it. Funny how some see chemistry and others don't.

    Lets face it in a 2 hour movie or 2 1/2 hour movie we are going to have to "buy" the romance and relationship. The script needs to provide chances for the audience to see and buy the romance. SP suffered because there wasn't enough there to buy Bond and Swann falling in love. NTTD rectifies that somewhat. I didn't buy that this was the one great love of Bond. That's my reading. Therefore the ending lacks a certain punch to the gut. I feel nothing when he's chatting to her for the last time. I should feel something but I felt nothing.

    I think the Laz and Rigg partnership isn't among the worst, but it is incredibly one-sided. We all fall in love with Rigg's Tracy during the film, so we almost automatically get sold on Lazenby's side when it isn't really that impressive.

    On the Swann/Craig partnership, I feel that both do a good job of acting out the relationship and I don't find faults in their performances of the interpretation. Just don't think that the story meshes that well and doesn't feel Bondian somehow
  • Posts: 1,985
    I've always been of the opinion Lazenby had the tougher assignment in that OHMSS required Bond to be more emotionally vulnerable than Connery had ever portrayed Bond. I've never been able to see Connery in the OHMSS role as he was always a bit detached, emotions restrained. Think Quarrel, Kerim Bey, Jill, Tilly, and Aki. No tears for any of those characters.

    The montage works for me as it requires the actors to project their feelings instead of stating them.

    After Bond and Tracy and then Bond and Vesper, the hat trick just wasn't there.

    It ought to a be a while, if ever, before Bond falls in love again.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Simon wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond. He killed your grandfather, and nearly got me killed numerous times. There was this one time he did save me from being strapped to a building rigged to explode, but that was only after I left him in the street because I didnt want the life he would provide. We did hook up about 10 minutes later though. He abandoned me while pregnant due to chronic trust issues, even after 5 years together, and was still hung up on an ex-girlfriend he knew for a few days over a decade ago."

    When did they ever say that Bond and Madeleine spent five years together? Why would it take Madeleine this long to take Bond "home"?

    I quite like the 'home' thing, as it's a little hint towards the nesting impulse of a pregnant lady. A bit early of course, but it's a movie :)
    They do just feel like a believable couple in that opening sequence to me. Is she the most charismatic character in the world? No, but we've all had mates who fall in love with people and we can't quite understand why :D
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    mtm wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond. He killed your grandfather, and nearly got me killed numerous times. There was this one time he did save me from being strapped to a building rigged to explode, but that was only after I left him in the street because I didnt want the life he would provide. We did hook up about 10 minutes later though. He abandoned me while pregnant due to chronic trust issues, even after 5 years together, and was still hung up on an ex-girlfriend he knew for a few days over a decade ago."

    When did they ever say that Bond and Madeleine spent five years together? Why would it take Madeleine this long to take Bond "home"?

    I quite like the 'home' thing, as it's a little hint towards the nesting impulse of a pregnant lady. A bit early of course, but it's a movie :)
    They do just feel like a believable couple in that opening sequence to me. Is she the most charismatic character in the world? No, but we've all had mates who fall in love with people and we can't quite understand why :D

    They were very believable as a couple in love (a happy turn for me as I didn't buy the relationship in Spectre, no matter how hard the two actors tried).

    Part of the reason for my love of this film is seeing this relationship "click". I thought the setting was beautiful, and the leads were a very likable couple.
  • Posts: 1,078
    echo wrote: »
    Poor Vesper drowned and then her tomb got blown up? A bit much.

    'A bit much' sums up the whole NTTD/CraigBond finale for me. It was like they just thought of everything they hadn't done, and crammed it all in one movie. Like someone packing a suitcase and having to sit on it to zip it up.
  • Posts: 1,490
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond. He killed your grandfather, and nearly got me killed numerous times. There was this one time he did save me from being strapped to a building rigged to explode, but that was only after I left him in the street because I didnt want the life he would provide. We did hook up about 10 minutes later though. He abandoned me while pregnant due to chronic trust issues, even after 5 years together, and was still hung up on an ex-girlfriend he knew for a few days over a decade ago."

    When did they ever say that Bond and Madeleine spent five years together? Why would it take Madeleine this long to take Bond "home"?

    I quite like the 'home' thing, as it's a little hint towards the nesting impulse of a pregnant lady. A bit early of course, but it's a movie :)
    They do just feel like a believable couple in that opening sequence to me. Is she the most charismatic character in the world? No, but we've all had mates who fall in love with people and we can't quite understand why :D

    They were very believable as a couple in love (a happy turn for me as I didn't buy the relationship in Spectre, no matter how hard the two actors tried).

    Part of the reason for my love of this film is seeing this relationship "click". I thought the setting was beautiful, and the leads were a very likable couple.

    I agree and I find Bond death truly dramatic and very moving. The audience I saw the film with also bought into the shock ending big time. You could hear a pin drop when Bond died. I think reusing All the Time In the World was 100 percent ent justified. It was a very emotional and poignant ending which made sense for Craig's Bond, his journey from the arrogant blunt instrument in CR and QOS and gradually evolving into a more rounded and troubled human being across SF, SP and NTTD.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    ColonelSun wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Simon wrote: »
    "Let me tell you about a man named Bond, James Bond. He killed your grandfather, and nearly got me killed numerous times. There was this one time he did save me from being strapped to a building rigged to explode, but that was only after I left him in the street because I didnt want the life he would provide. We did hook up about 10 minutes later though. He abandoned me while pregnant due to chronic trust issues, even after 5 years together, and was still hung up on an ex-girlfriend he knew for a few days over a decade ago."

    When did they ever say that Bond and Madeleine spent five years together? Why would it take Madeleine this long to take Bond "home"?

    I quite like the 'home' thing, as it's a little hint towards the nesting impulse of a pregnant lady. A bit early of course, but it's a movie :)
    They do just feel like a believable couple in that opening sequence to me. Is she the most charismatic character in the world? No, but we've all had mates who fall in love with people and we can't quite understand why :D

    They were very believable as a couple in love (a happy turn for me as I didn't buy the relationship in Spectre, no matter how hard the two actors tried).

    Part of the reason for my love of this film is seeing this relationship "click". I thought the setting was beautiful, and the leads were a very likable couple.

    I agree and I find Bond death truly dramatic and very moving. The audience I saw the film with also bought into the shock ending big time. You could hear a pin drop when Bond died. I think reusing All the Time In the World was 100 percent ent justified. It was a very emotional and poignant ending which made sense for Craig's Bond, his journey from the arrogant blunt instrument in CR and QOS and gradually evolving into a more rounded and troubled human being across SF, SP and NTTD.

    Beautifully said @ColonelSun — as always 👍🏻!!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 13 Posts: 3,152
    Simon wrote: »
    I think the Vesper arc should have been completely severed after QoS.
    So did Daniel Craig at one point. Either in the QOS promo rounds or the build up to SF, an interviewer asked him if future films would deal with Vesper and Quantum and he groaned and went 'I'm so done with that effing storyline!' Little did he know...
  • SimonSimon Keeping The British End Up...
    Posts: 154
    When did they ever say that Bond and Madeleine spent five years together? Why would it take Madeleine this long to take Bond "home"?

    Brain rot on my part. NTTD takes part 5 years after SP, but the gap between SP and NTTD's PTS is unknown I think??
  • rock223rock223 Isenburg
    Posts: 13
    More than the best, it might take a while for another movie to come up and even compete with the ending of No Time To Die
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @rock223 , welcome to my Club! Membership is now up two! You and me, and we don’t have a very popular opinion about this film, nor the ending, 😂.

    But we’ve got each other, 😂.
  • Posts: 1,078
    I wouldn't worry, I bet there are Beatles fans who think Revolution 9 is the best Beatles song as well.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I wouldn't worry, I bet there are Beatles fans who think Revolution 9 is the best Beatles song as well.

    Wait…, it isn’t??
  • Posts: 1,078
    It is if you want it to be. That's art, man.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    It is if you want it to be. That's art, man.

    Another attempt at humour fails again. Shaking my head. I just plain old suck at even getting a sniff at a chuckle. But there’s always my Golden Retriever. No matter what I say, he’s always there, always looking like he’s smiling. A tremendous ego boost to a needy man-child such as myself. 😔.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    peter wrote: »
    @rock223 , welcome to my Club! Membership is now up two! You and me, and we don’t have a very popular opinion about this film, nor the ending, 😂.

    But we’ve got each other, 😂.

    I'm on the NTTD train as well. I think the film is marvelously paced and acted, cleverly written...and the ending is bold.

    I'm sure the marketing execs or the studio made them put "James Bond Will Return" at the end so that the audience didn't leave on a totally bleak note. Otherwise, BB and MGW would have had to fend off years of questions about whether there will ever be another Bond film.

    Now, by including just four little words of hope in the credits, BB and MGW can rest on their laurels, and carefully reconceptualize Bond post-Craig, free from the slings and arrows of fans...
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    @rock223 , welcome to my Club! Membership is now up two! You and me, and we don’t have a very popular opinion about this film, nor the ending, 😂.

    But we’ve got each other, 😂.

    I'm on the NTTD train as well. I think the film is marvelously paced and acted, cleverly written...and the ending is bold.

    I'm sure the marketing execs or the studio made them put "James Bond Will Return" at the end so that the audience didn't leave on a totally bleak note. Otherwise, BB and MGW would have had to fend off years of questions about whether there will ever be another Bond film.

    Now, by including just four little words of hope in the credits, BB and MGW can rest on their laurels, and carefully reconceptualize Bond post-Craig, free from the slings and arrows of fans...

    Welcome to the cool kid’s table, @echo ! The three of us will do some serious damage around here!
  • Posts: 1,985
    There has never been, nor will there ever be, a day in my life in which I say "My favorite ending to a Bond film is when he got killed."
  • CrabKey wrote: »
    There has never been, nor will there ever be, a day in my life in which I say "My favorite ending to a Bond film is when he got killed."

    Have you read From Russia, With Love? Did you hate the ending entirely?
  • Posts: 1,985
    I started reading the novels in high school shortly after Dr. No came out.
    As I did not read them sequentially, I knew Bond didn't die at the end of FRWL. Had I not known, I would have had my doubts based on how it ended. There's nothing about any Fleming novel or film I hate. I don't even hate the end of NTTD. It's just an ending that doesn't work for me.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited June 15 Posts: 14,571
    I don't get what the big deal is - Bond dies all the time in the video games. Well, at least when I play them.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    :))
  • Posts: 1,340
    I don't like the ending. Stealing Bond's car is not cool. ;)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There has never been, nor will there ever be, a day in my life in which I say "My favorite ending to a Bond film is when he got killed."

    Then I’m very sorry to inform you that we have rejected your application to our club. Please watch the film over and try again. You only get three chances to join. After that, you’re out in the cold and will never be invited to sit at the cool kids table.
    I don't like the ending. Stealing Bond's car is not cool. ;)

    And yes, I agree with you @DEKE_RIVERS . Very uncool to steal Bond’s car, especially since I heard he willed it to his housekeeper, May.

    Her hope was she would auction it and retire.

    But now she’s left with nothing, and will likely have to clean homes until she slips into The Big Sleep.

    THIS is why Madeleine will never be comparable to Vesper or Tracy….

  • Posts: 1,985
    I'd never want to join a club that would have me as a member - GM
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I'd never want to join a club that would have me as a member - GM

    Hmm, well, these are our principles, and if you don’t like them… … well, we have others.
  • Posts: 1,985
    peter wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I'd never want to join a club that would have me as a member - GM

    Hmm, well, these are our principles, and if you don’t like them… … well, we have others.

    Principles? Principles? We don't need no stinkin' principles.
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