Would you rather Bond 26 be released in the Christmas season OR Summer?

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  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,089
    Not a fan of LTK I'm afraid. Kudos for trying something different, but it didn't quite work. So it's NTTD for me. Many faults, but I still love it.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 6,710
    LTK. I have no plans on seeing NTTD again.

    Yep, same here, I’m afraid :(

    Besides, there’s always this argument in favour of LTK:

    MV5BOTI2ODk4NjgzOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDM1NDk0NA@@._V1_.jpg
  • Posts: 1,871
    Not a fan of LTK I'm afraid. Kudos for trying something different, but it didn't quite work. So it's NTTD for me. Many faults, but I still love it.
    Just out of curiosity, how do you square away the whole foster brother thing with one becoming the world's best secret agent and the other become the the world's biggest criminal master mind? To me, a fault that undermines the entire endeavor.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    delfloria wrote: »
    Not a fan of LTK I'm afraid. Kudos for trying something different, but it didn't quite work. So it's NTTD for me. Many faults, but I still love it.
    Just out of curiosity, how do you square away the whole foster brother thing with one becoming the world's best secret agent and the other become the the world's biggest criminal master mind? To me, a fault that undermines the entire endeavor.

    Cain and Abel allegory: one is the beloved son, one was forsaken so he exacts his revenge.
  • Posts: 6,710
    A tired allegory, unsuited for this context. Cringeworthy. Badly executed. Another soap opera trope amongst others used in the Craig era.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,086
    NTTD is the far better movie. Count me in on that one. Though I don't mind LTK at all, it's mid-field among the Bond franchise for me. But NTTD is top-five material .
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited August 2023 Posts: 2,190
    Sanchez would be very much ashamed to share a table with Safin in Bond villains' meeting...as Safin isn't a worthy Bond villain.
    The underwater action/water ski/plane fight sequence in LTk is better than a lot of action scenes in NTTD...only the Matera sequence is in its class. Plus, LTK might be the last suspenseful Bond film, where there's a genuine worry for Bond....if Sanchez finds him out.
  • Posts: 6,710
    That’s quite true, in LTK we teally fear for Bond. And yes, NTTD is a worthy entry, IMO, only because of the wonderful Matera sequence. It makes up for the entire film.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Univex wrote: »
    A tired allegory, unsuited for this context. Cringeworthy. Badly executed. Another soap opera trope amongst others used in the Craig era.

    Defloria was asking. I gave my answer. And I’m on record as being quite sore with Spectre…

    I quite like the Cain and Abel allegory, generally. It’s effective in storytelling.

    However, bringing up Spectre again makes me think of one of the reasons why I find NTTD quite a brilliant film: weeks and months after seeing Spectre, it dropped severely in my rankings. But……

    After doing a complete Craig Appreciation Week in my household, where one of my kids and I watched each of his Bond films, one a night, and in order, Spectre has now climbed into a mid-tier ranking for me.

    Why?

    Because NTTD took most of the Spectre threads and gave it relevancy.

    It’s because of NTTD, that I can now enjoy Spectre…

  • Posts: 6,710
    peter wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    A tired allegory, unsuited for this context. Cringeworthy. Badly executed. Another soap opera trope amongst others used in the Craig era.

    Defloria was asking. I gave my answer. And I’m on record as being quite sore with Spectre…

    I quite like the Cain and Abel allegory, generally. It’s effective in storytelling.

    However, bringing up Spectre again makes me think of one of the reasons why I find NTTD quite a brilliant film: weeks and months after seeing Spectre, it dropped severely in my rankings. But……

    After doing a complete Craig Appreciation Week in my household, where one of my kids and I watched each of his Bond films, one a night, and in order, Spectre has now climbed into a mid-tier ranking for me.

    Why?

    Because NTTD took most of the Spectre threads and gave it relevancy.

    It’s because of NTTD, that I can now enjoy Spectre…

    It had quite the opposite effect on me, I’m afraid. But I’m happy you liked it so much, my friend, it almost makes me want to like it more. I’ve tried, and it has its moments, NTTD, I mean. But both films are awfully written. They are technically well executed, beautiful to watch, with very good production values, stylishly done. But in the end, awfully written, with lots of poor decisions. The foster brother angle and Bond having a daughter and then dying, just ruins the whole Craig era ethos for me. I understand the personal angle they were aiming for up until SF, but it all went downhill. IMO, of course.

    I’m not the biggest LTK fan either, btw. I’m more of a TLD kind of Bond fan.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited August 2023 Posts: 2,190
    Yeah @Univex TLD is my favourite Dalton Bond film and my second favourite Bond film and it also stands like a giant Greek god over NTTD.
    Also, much respect for @peter because of his NTTD reviews, I've tried to watch it to find that wonderful thing, but I still cannot.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Yeah @Univex TLD is my favourite Dalton Bond film and my second favourite Bond film and it also stands like a giant Greek god over NTTD.

    Couldn’t agree more. What’s your number one?
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited August 2023 Posts: 2,190
    Univex wrote: »
    Yeah @Univex TLD is my favourite Dalton Bond film and my second favourite Bond film and it also stands like a giant Greek god over NTTD.

    Couldn’t agree more. What’s your number one?

    Oh, not because it's the best Bond film, but Tomorrow Never Dies is a Bond film I love a lot and is my favourite. To this day, Brosnan's Bond ultra-confident performance in it, is infectious. GE is his best Bond film for sure, but TND hits the right chords for me.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,694
    Univex wrote: »
    Yeah @Univex TLD is my favourite Dalton Bond film and my second favourite Bond film and it also stands like a giant Greek god over NTTD.

    Couldn’t agree more. What’s your number one?

    Oh, not because it's the best Bond film, but Tomorrow Never Dies is a Bond film I love a lot and is my favourite. To this day, Brosnan's Bond ultra-confident performance in it, is infectious. GE is his best Bond film for sure, but TND hits the right chords for me.
    Glad to see TND love on such a scale. I'd be a very very happy man if we got another Bond film as great as TND. The fun factor; the energy running through it is something I miss with these films.
  • Posts: 6,710
    Univex wrote: »
    Yeah @Univex TLD is my favourite Dalton Bond film and my second favourite Bond film and it also stands like a giant Greek god over NTTD.

    Couldn’t agree more. What’s your number one?

    Oh, not because it's the best Bond film, but Tomorrow Never Dies is a Bond film I love a lot and is my favourite. To this day, Brosnan's Bond ultra-confident performance in it, is infectious. GE is his best Bond film for sure, but TND hits the right chords for me.

    I simply love TND.
    The first 4 Connery films + OHMSS + TLD + GE/TND are my Bond essentials. I also appreciate CR/QOS/SF. And I must confess myself a TMWTGG fan (oh well…).
    But TND hits so many right notes that I can’t help but loving it.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 2,296
    peter wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    A tired allegory, unsuited for this context. Cringeworthy. Badly executed. Another soap opera trope amongst others used in the Craig era.

    Defloria was asking. I gave my answer. And I’m on record as being quite sore with Spectre…

    I quite like the Cain and Abel allegory, generally. It’s effective in storytelling.

    However, bringing up Spectre again makes me think of one of the reasons why I find NTTD quite a brilliant film: weeks and months after seeing Spectre, it dropped severely in my rankings. But……

    After doing a complete Craig Appreciation Week in my household, where one of my kids and I watched each of his Bond films, one a night, and in order, Spectre has now climbed into a mid-tier ranking for me.

    Why?

    Because NTTD took most of the Spectre threads and gave it relevancy.

    It’s because of NTTD, that I can now enjoy Spectre…

    Same here. NTTD made me revisit SP with the benefit of hindsight, and I’ve softened up on the film as a result. But my Annual Bondathon is still two films away from the Craig era, so I have no idea how SP will stack up against the other films this go-around.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,190
    Agreed! @QBranch & @Univex :)
  • Posts: 463
    Sanchez alone is enough for me to put LTK miles above No Time To Die. Dalton and the soundtrack are icing on the cake.
  • Posts: 2,029
    CrzChris4 wrote: »
    Sanchez alone is enough for me to put LTK miles above No Time To Die. Dalton and the soundtrack are icing on the cake.

    Two weak villains in NTTD cause me to focus on other things in the film, of which there are many to appreciate. But a Bond film is always about a confrontation with the bad guy, which is why LTK gets my vote. Sanchez is up there with Grant as villains who are particularly nasty.

    We get to the end of the Quantum/SPECTRE saga with Bond inadvertently killing the author of his pain, whereas Safin's motive for killing Blofeld turns out to be more important to the script writers than Bond's motive. Bond shooting Safin somehow feels hollow and unsatisfying.

    I don't believe we knew at the time LTK would be TD's finale, but the stakes seemed so much greater taking on Sanchez than what NTTD offered. For Craig, his magnum opus will always be CR.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    007HallY wrote: »
    It just depends upon my mood.
    If I want something utterly light and fun and silly, then Dalton. If I want the most serious, moving, and appropriate final goodbye for Craig's Bond, then NTTD.

    I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Dalton's performance in LTK as light, fun, and silly!

    Anyway, in terms of the films I prefer LTK. NTTD does, however, have the edge in terms of filmmaking, but it's the script that I think puts LTK over the edge.

    Performance wise, I think Craig has moments which rank amongst the best acting of his Bond tenure (him visiting Vesper's grave is an example), and it's clear there was a specific direction that was taken with the character in this film. You have a Bond who has been out of the spy game for five years, and in his isolation seems much more relaxed and willing to form connections with those around him. Obviously there are some controversial moments within that performance (the interrogation scene is the most apparent one, which I'm not terribly fond of either), but I get what they were doing.

    That said Dalton is at his best as Bond. Dalton didn't quite have Connery's irony or Moore's tongue in cheek-ness so that side of the cinematic Bonds dialled back in this one slightly, but it really shows a Bond who is ruthless, dark, and actually quite human. So I'll go for Dalton.


    Maybe I misunderstood - I thought this was about the ENDING of the movie. Winking fish and all. LTK definitely not a favorite of mine; TLD is, though.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 3,327
    Not a fan of LTK I'm afraid. Kudos for trying something different, but it didn't quite work. So it's NTTD for me. Many faults, but I still love it.

    Talking about doing things differently that didn't work, I think NTTD tops the lot - kill Felix, kill Brofeld, give Bond a daughter, turn 007 into a woman, make Bond retire for 5 years and live like a loner, and then kill Bond off completely.

    LTK in comparison is fairly standard, but was ahead of its time back in 89, and eventually became the template for the entire Craig era.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,089
    delfloria wrote: »
    Not a fan of LTK I'm afraid. Kudos for trying something different, but it didn't quite work. So it's NTTD for me. Many faults, but I still love it.
    Just out of curiosity, how do you square away the whole foster brother thing with one becoming the world's best secret agent and the other become the the world's biggest criminal master mind? To me, a fault that undermines the entire endeavor.

    Yes, unfortunately NTTD is connected to SP, a film I really don't like. But regardless of the Foster brother debacle, I think NTTD is a great Bond film. A lot of flaws, yes, but I prefer it to LTK...
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,800
    Pam and Bond > Bond and Madeleine
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,003
    Univex wrote: »
    LTK. I have no plans on seeing NTTD again.

    Yep, same here, I’m afraid :(

    Besides, there’s always this argument in favour of LTK:

    MV5BOTI2ODk4NjgzOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMDM1NDk0NA@@._V1_.jpg

    I prefer Pam
    ltk_30_500.jpg

    But Lupe was still very easy on the eyes.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    May have been easy on the eyes, but not to the ears (and my soul dies every time I hear: you know, I love James, so much...
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 14,003
    I don't think the issue is so much with her delivery, as the line comes from out of nowhere. I mean, she has barely known him for more than 5 minutes. I don't know, maybe having a knife held to her throat is her kink.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    I dunno. She had some wonky deliveries (“don’t you men know any other way”, as her voice does an Acting 101 tremble)… She just wasn’t the strongest actor.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,800
    I don't think the issue is so much with her delivery, as the line comes from out of nowhere. I mean, she has barely known him for more than 5 minutes. I don't know, maybe having a knife held to her throat is her kink.

    Well, at least it's only Lupe who fell for Bond (and Bond had clearly no feelings towards her), and considering the nature of her character (she's a hooker, a gold digger who would stick to every man just to get out of Sanchez's world), it's meant to be taken with that concept in mind (in short, not meant to be taken seriously), we've seen how she functioned as a character for the first and second act of the film (cheating on Sanchez by sleeping with another man and her liking Sanchez because he's rich), so that word, as for me, I take it as like out of depth or just an overwhelmed expression since she felt the security on Bond, she saw Bond as an opportunity.

    My problem with that was more on Talisa Soto's delivery of the line.

    Now, with Madeleine, her declaration of love for Bond (despite of her hating him and not knowing him that much), well she's not an opportunist or a gold digger like Lupe either but a professional, now that's rushed and literally came out of nowhere.

    What's worst, was Bond also fell in love with this woman despite of him not knowing her that much, their love came out of nowhere, and it's hard to buy, even their romance in NTTD, it's literally too far for these people that only got knew of each other for weeks or so?

    There's no development in that, so they've made out in the train and Bond fell in love with her, then Madeleine declared her love for Bond in Blofeld's lair then Bond retired, then they've started cohabitating in NTTD and they've had a child, like it's all too quick to happen.

    Then suddenly Bond dumped Madeleine because he thought she betrayed him? Trust issues? But that's the problem that Bond didn't saw coming in the first place, he put his heart on this woman without knowing her that much, only for Bond to dump her because Madeleine had some secrets that he didn't know? Then that makes Bond a bit stupid, right?

    The problem with Bond and Madeleine's relationship was it's meant to be taken seriously, but it's hard because of how rushed and poorly written it was.

    The problem with Lupe Lamora was Talisa Soto's acting (definitely worthy of Razzie), but in Madeleine and Bond, it's a problem of the script.

    In the Lupe Lamora character, I think it could be done better with a better actress, but in Madeleine and Bond's relationship, I doubt any actors/actress could've saved that script.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2023 Posts: 6,393
    It's an issue with SP, not NTTD.

    Bond and the audience in OHMSS have seen Tracy's resourcefulness in saving his life and Bond's appreciation of her, so he and we understand that she is the one.

    The script in SP never gave us that chance, to see why Bond falls in love with Madeleine and decides to leave the service. The hotel scene with Madeleine drunk/lowering her guard was a nudge in that direction, but the script needed a lot more of that.

    In SP we have a markedly stronger actor playing Bond in a suddenly significant relationship than in OHMSS, but the acting doesn't matter if it's not on the page.

    NTTD does a much more credible job of showing us that relationship. It's the actors and the script and the direction, but also the song and score. Billie Eilish was an inspired choice. Her song is my favorite since at least You Know My Name.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,511
    Whatever went wrong in Spectre was beautifully corrected in NTTD, IMO.

    I must be clear that I’m also on record as being very disappointed when it was reported Swann was back in NTTD. I didn’t have any hope as I felt that the two leads, in the previous film, were lacking in chemistry.

    I was happily surprised, and then genuinely moved, by Bond and Madeleine in NTTD.

    So my theory, whatever it’s worth, is that Mendes didn’t do a good job at all directing the two leads in Spectre, and Fukunaga did a brilliant job.
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