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I have grown to like TWINE over the years. At the time of release my expectations were high for this film, perhaps too high. I remember how the producers were looking to dial back the shoot'em up aspects of TND and get back to a character driven adventure. They deployed M in a more robust role. They didn't give Bond a ton of gadgets and in many cases he had to use smarts to get out of situations. I rather like it now and if I am choosing between SP or TWINE. TWINE is going to get my vote.
SP had such promise and it was all squandered by a bloated creative process with many fingers in the pot, as evidenced by the Sony hack emails. Maybe all eon productions get this level of input, but I feel the creative choices left us with a very uneven film.
I also feel like between SP and TWINE, TWINE had a lot of potential to be a great film, meanwhile, SP, given its already a technically well made film, there's nothing much to be done, whatever one may do, the fault of the film lies with the creative process, the plot itself, the central idea of having Bond's mortal enemy be his step brother and add another insult to the injury was he made all of those plans because of his jealousy towards Bond (his step brother), and with that, there's nothing much to be done, unless, one could rewrite SP from scratch (new idea, new plot, all are new), as much as how I find the Central Intelligence Hacking interesting, but the motivation could still be rooted back to Blofeld's personal vendetta against Bond, and you have MI6 and London being the collateral between the personal fights of Bond and Blofeld, just because again, Blofeld was jealous of Bond and he had led the world to chaos because of that shallow of a motivation (I've realized this while watching the film's third act after Bond saved Madeleine, the scenes happened right after that felt like their personal problems had caused the world its stake).
TWINE had an interesting idea but was butchered by bad execution, and it became a missed opportunity of a film, I feel like the concept of TWINE could be explored in a future Bond film (make it better and more polished), and we could have a great film with real dramatic beats that hasn't felt since OHMSS.
SP is not a missed opportunity, it's an anomaly, well made film, technically, but plot and story wise, it's really bad, TWINE, a flawed film, but had an interesting concept and story (female villain and a love interest who could put Bond down to his knees and make him fall in love, get under his skin, only to hurt him within his core, a love triangle between Bond and Renard (who happened to be also Elektra's lover), Renard as a character and maybe there are more interesting concepts in that film).
I don't hate SP, in fact, I personally prefer it to NTTD (explained my reasons here already of why) and there are a lot of scenes I could rewatch in SP than in TWINE honestly (the PTS, the Italian scenes, the Austrian scenes and the desert scene before they meet Blofeld) it's not the bottom of the barrel for me (that goes to either TMWTGG or DAF), but in comparison to TWINE (in terms of quality), this film had more serious, internal flaws than TWINE, regards of rewatchability.
Sure, I was just wondering if you'd seen a cut before they put any music on. I can imagine it being much more lively with a temp track from TND on there.
The last bit I think is the fundamental flaw. Bond doesn't fall in love that quickly, and shuts his emotions out when he's doing his job. It comes back in most novels and films like that. So Brosnan's suddenly falling for Elektra even though he has doubts about her honesty, makes no sense whatsoever. That's not Bond. That's exactly why the 'i never miss' and then bending over her is so utterly wrong. There's no love triangle, Bond just does what he needs to do (and enjoy 'great beauty' in the meantime) to get the job done.
Perhaps I should change my vote to SP. Allthough there's a lot wrong with the plot there too, one can still explain it away as a way of Blofeld to get on Bond's nerves, instead of meaning what he says. He probably was just annoyed by Bond showing up time and time again, but pretending he'd been behind all Bond's suffering is obviously a nice psychological trick to get Bond off-balance.
Unfortunately, I whole heartedly disagree. Spectre was such a let down because there were incredible elements in the story that weren’t executed well.
Taking a shot at improving Spectre, with the Spectre we have, here are three simple things that I think would be the start of making the film/script tighter/better:
1/ explore the stakes of Nine Eyes. When Blofeld takes over this surveillance how can he use that to take advantage. Find the answer and you will have something terrifying.
2/ Blofeld is NOT Bond’s step brother. Bond spent two winters with the family. But it’s an easy omission (but I wouldn’t; I’d keep that but make it clearer that they spent a total of a few months together as boys. Very simple to do).
3/ cut out the entire third act and rebuild it at Blofeld’s HQ.Forget the head drilling (that in the end made zero sense). Put back the dinner and card game. Perhaps go for a Dr.No call back and at the end of the dinner, have some thugs work Bond over, dumping him in a cell, and figure out a way of his escape, saving Madeleine and destroying Blofeld’s base.
All this is hindsight. When you’re in an actual production and 20 thousand things are going on at once, it’s easier said then done.
To be fair you could make that exact same critique about SPECTRE when it comes to Bond falling in love easily. I have never bought the relationship between Bond and Madeleine; nor have I ever believed for a second that she was his one true love and the one to get him to settle down. If anything, NTTD has to do the heavy lifting when it comes to making that relationship come across as genuine and sincere; and that's pretty indicative of the writing behind SPECTRE as a whole.
Can they call Craig back to film the missing pieces? I like these ideas.
Thanks for the nice comment, @CommanderRoss ! It's appreciated very much!
For 1) do you mean that Nine Eyes is a step on the way to the plan, rather than the plan itself? A bit like stealing the GoldenEye? Yeah that makes sense, I like that.
I like the other ideas. As you say, they were in the middle of a lot of events and voices, and I think this story is a hard one to find the focus of so I totally understand them losing track of it. I still can't entirely figure out why it doesn't work myself.
There's so many odd bits; like why have Oberhauser Sr murdered but Bond seemingly feel no emotion about that? But if he did, would it help the story or confuse it further? If you were to separate Blofeld and Franz into two different people, would that help the story (you'd certainly get rid of the naffness of Blofeld being Bond's foster brother), or would you be adding more clutter to the film and an extra character where you don't need one?
Maybe there should have been no Franz: maybe Blofeld had created the spectre of him (ho-ho) for Bond to chase after as he was still upset about the death of his mentor, but it was all some big trap which Blofeld had set for Bond because of his previous meddling in Spectre's affairs, and Blofeld had dug up the story of the real Oberhausers with his surveillance gags. The real Franz (or Smythe I guess) having died many years previously, Blofeld was setting Bond breadcrumbs to follow and trying to tap on childhood memories to torment him.
That could be fun, but then equally it removes having an actual connection between them, and that's more dramatic isn't it? Maybe Blofeld could have known Franz as a boy (but not Bond) and pushed him into being a murderer? So Blofeld was always kind of behind the scenes? Could that be the reveal? Is that trite?
That would mean he'd have to slit his wrists. Sorry about that.
It's getting a bit complicated 😅
I agree that's a big piece that is missing from the film. Presumably SPECTRE is planning something with all the information, right? Otherwise, what's their interest in making sure Nine Eyes is online (in fact, one has to wonder, given all the capabilities they already had before Nine Eyes was online, how much were they really gaining)? That's something I thought might end up being explored in Bond 25 -- Blofeld/SPECTRE using what intel they had already gleaned to extort or use to carry out other plots or sell to other bad guys.
I don’t know why I hit quote, 😂!
Yes @mtm , exactly! nine eyes has to lead to something bigger. Something that makes Spectre in control. Something that puts Spectre on the map and sends governments around the world trembling in fear. It has to be a means to something more valuable than listening in on M giving a speech!
Lets try another pairing:
Would you rather watch OP OR TLD?
Both feature some good old fashioned Cold War espionage. Both have a duo of villains making life difficult for our man. Both feature a Russian General going rogue. Both films have a John Barry score. The films feature action galore. Both have some romantic vibes woven into the plot. Both have a henchman who is a bulking brute. Both films feature smuggling.
Which one is likely to end up in your player or on your screen?
Oof. I really enjoy both, and TLD resides in my top ten, OP just outside of it, but if I’m in the mood for “comfort food” in movie form, then I’ll likely watch OP….
But I probably watch TLD more than I do OP in any given year.
Tough one, but I’ll have to go with TLD by a whisker.
Even though it's possibly my favourite for more sentimental reasons, I can't disagree with that. I might even say it could have done with a better Bond too... but I love it how it is.
OP is fun but the 3 edings are too many. TLD only have 2 ;)
I'd never say anything like that about TLD, so this is my choice.
OP is fun but somewhere in the middle of Roger’s movies for me.
And honestly, no one can convince me the clown costume isn't a genius idea.
And as a fan of THE THIRD MAN (1949) I've also come to really appreciate the call backs to that film during the Vienna sequences. If I not mistaken, TLD director John Glen had an uncredited production role (assistant sound editor) in that film. A Bond film with a touch of classic era Noir? Can't beat that!
Plus .....
:x