Would you rather have Dalton commentaries on his films OR Craig commentary on his films?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,739
    Yeah, good analysis. If there’s one thing I like about Spectre, it’s how they chose to make Bond at that point of his career more relaxed in his own skin, playful even.
  • Posts: 15,282
    Come to think of it, one of the most famous if not the most famous literary trilogies of all time is actually not a trilogy at all: Tolkien wrote and considered LOTR as a single novel. It's only due to its size that it was divided in three books. Many so called cinematic "trilogies" were never written as such, but made of one movie that begat sequels due to its success.

    So yeah, whatever I said about wanting a strong continuity and overarching arcs, it doesn't work like that for Bond, or indeed any film franchise. That said, I don't think we will go back to complete standalone films just yet. There might be sequel hooks, recurring villains, etc.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,104
    You're right about Tolkien's LOTR as a single novel split into three volumes. I guess the main difference is whether the first book (or film) of a series was already intended to be part of a longer story with a continuous arc which was already more or less determined. By that token, Rowling's Harry Potter series is a heptalogy - I doubt she knew already what would happen in the seventh volume when she wrote the first. And Fleming's Blofeld Trilogy was probably also conceived one after the other rather than at once.
  • Posts: 15,282
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    You're right about Tolkien's LOTR as a single novel split into three volumes. I guess the main difference is whether the first book (or film) of a series was already intended to be part of a longer story with a continuous arc which was already more or less determined. By that token, Rowling's Harry Potter series is a heptalogy - I doubt she knew already what would happen in the seventh volume when she wrote the first. And Fleming's Blofeld Trilogy was probably also conceived one after the other rather than at once.

    Yeah, for the "Blofeld trilogy" I suspect Fleming wanted to use SPECTRE as replacement for SMERSH and turned Blofeld himself into a recurring adversary, more or less by happenstance. Of the three novels, only YOLT is a sequel to the other. TB is pretty much a standalone with a "sequel hook" of sorts and OHMSS a spinoff with very little link to the previous book except the villain who is turning into a nemesis. Even YOLT is only somewhat a sequel, when we discover that Shatterhand is indeed Blofeld.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,363
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Come to think of it, one of the most famous if not the most famous literary trilogies of all time is actually not a trilogy at all: Tolkien wrote and considered LOTR as a single novel. It's only due to its size that it was divided in three books. Many so called cinematic "trilogies" were never written as such, but made of one movie that begat sequels due to its success.

    So yeah, whatever I said about wanting a strong continuity and overarching arcs, it doesn't work like that for Bond, or indeed any film franchise. That said, I don't think we will go back to complete standalone films just yet. There might be sequel hooks, recurring villains, etc.

    Just to confuse everything a little bit further, 'The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy' is a trilogy in five (now even six) parts made into one movie.

    When I said I'd like continuity because I like the films more grounded, I meant it in the way that the Soviets were recurring enemies to Bond. I don't need any character arcs or anything like that spread out over films. Craig got to do that, now I want my not-so-hero hero to do his job and save the world.

  • edited January 6 Posts: 4,390
    I never know what people truly mean when they say they 'don't want character arcs' for Bond, especially when we're talking from film to film. Do we mean we don't want Bond to change at all from film to film? I don't see a reason why an incarnation of Bond wouldn't develop some way from film to film, even if it's just due to a change in director or story. Again, take SP and Bond's more relaxed attitude in that film. That's Bond's character having changed and developed after him overcoming his issues in SF. But really if someone had never seen SF, it wouldn't matter as both are individual adventures. But Craig's Bond developed.

    Similarly, Moore's Bond changed throughout his tenure, and if the audience really wanted to they could see that as his Bond getting older and more reflective, especially by FYEO (and especially as his films have so many recurring characters and even a few plot threads). Fleming's Bond certainly changed based on his experiences in the novels. The character had to overcome obstacles, and his attitude towards the world even developed over time.

    I don't know if it's just the terminology ('character arc' feels a bit stringent in this context I think - again, Bond adventures don't tend to be pre-planned in quite this way, and the character is always going to be reacting to the experiences of the adventure and often having to overcome obstacles). But there'll always be some development with each Bond.
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited January 6 Posts: 714
    By "character arc" I think most people mean that they don't want a strict narrative continuity where Bond's character undergoes a personality change over the course of the films, with a specific end goal in mind for him. It doesn't mean that the actor gives the exact same performance every time. Connery was slightly different in every movie, but he still didn't have an arc.

    DN: Bond is high-strung and irritable
    FRWL: more confident and businesslike
    GF: quippy and sarcastic
    TB: confident and relaxed
    YOLT: relaxed, affable
    DAF: self-amused, bored
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,533
    Well said @slide_99 and stated. Moore got to do different tones of the same character. Doubtful this will be done again. Connery also got to portray the same character in different tones. Compare Connery's Bond in FRWL to the tone of Bond in DAF. Similarly Moore's Bond in MR to Bond in FYEO. Todays audiences I don't think we accept huge tonal shifts in narrative, though I could be wrong.

    I would love to see Bond grow and develop through his films but I am not interested in the love interest of the first film being referenced through out the next films.
  • edited January 6 Posts: 4,390
    I suppose it depends on what exactly this bit of 'strict' continuity is between films is and what they do with the story at the end of the day. To be completely honest I suspect in many cases fans would react positively to a more strict bit of continuity/Bond going through certain things. Doesn't have to be a repeat of Craig's era in this regard. Personally I'd be fine if they loosely adapted some of the stuff we get in Fleming.

    Have Bond go through a near death experience at the end of the first film due to a mistake he makes, much like FRWL (the film doesn't have to end on a cliffhanger like that particular novel, and we can see him come out of the film with the Bond girl etc). Perhaps during the PTS of the next one he makes another reckless mistake/nearly botches the mission, and afterwards we get a brief reference from M about how long it took him to recover from his injuries in the last one. He sends Bond on an 'easy' assignment to get his head sorted, otherwise he'll be suspended from duty. Then of course much like DN the mission turns out to have something deeper to it, and Bond uses his wits and self-determination to make the right decisions, pursue the right leads, and defeat the villain. That's an 'arc' of sorts (although it's more Bond getting over obstacles rather than his personality fundamentally changing).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,739
    slide_99 wrote: »
    By "character arc" I think most people mean that they don't want a strict narrative continuity where Bond's character undergoes a personality change over the course of the films, with a specific end goal in mind for him.

    But why wouldn't you want that? That's how most characters in all films work, really. They change their point of view; that's kind of the point of most stories really.

    I don't necessarily mean the 'end goal in mind' thing, as I'm not sure planning these things very rigidly works, but movie characters should develop and learn.
    Look at Indiana Jones: a character in a sequence of films which live in a very similar tonal world of action/adventure to Bond, and each film is a learning experience for him. So much so that the second film had to be a prequel in order to show how he came to change his perspective and become more heroic. And these were coming out in the 80s: audiences were fine with it.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,999
    I probably said this in the past, the discussion for having a plan automatically recalls the Dilbert cartoon on the subject.

    So there's the plan, and there's the reality that takes over in whatever order it works out.

    When there's an item like Bond as Blofeld's foster brother, I expect intense dislike for the idea wouldn't depend on how early it was brought up or put on a schedule.

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,533
    Good stuff! Loved the thoughts of all who shared them. It will be interesting to see where the next set of films take us.

    Would you rather have commentaries by Dalton on his films OR Craig on his films?

    We are blessed to have Roger's commentary on all his films. They are wonderful and have some insights into filming and the cast in general. Pierce did some commentaries as well. Unfortunately we won't ever get a Sean commentary.

    But we have two Bond's who have not provided commentary to their films. Timothy and Daniel who I think would be able to really share some interesting stories or thoughts into their portrayal.

    Which Bond actor would you like to hear them comment on their films?
  • Posts: 16,265
    Dalton.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,142
    It's a good question. Both would i'm sure be fascinating, but i'd have to go with Dalton. Simply for the fact his films were pretty different and there's scant Bond interviews with him.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,739
    Both would be good, hopefully with someone else rather than just on their own as I don't think that worked brilliantly with Pierce and Roger.
    If I had to pick one, I'd probably go with Craig, as he's a bit funnier and more entertaining as himself, plus he was more hands-on with the actual production of his films so is likely to give greater insights into the films as a whole.
  • Posts: 7,654
    Dalton for sure!
  • Posts: 15,282
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suppose it depends on what exactly this bit of 'strict' continuity is between films is and what they do with the story at the end of the day. To be completely honest I suspect in many cases fans would react positively to a more strict bit of continuity/Bond going through certain things. Doesn't have to be a repeat of Craig's era in this regard. Personally I'd be fine if they loosely adapted some of the stuff we get in Fleming.

    Have Bond go through a near death experience at the end of the first film due to a mistake he makes, much like FRWL (the film doesn't have to end on a cliffhanger like that particular novel, and we can see him come out of the film with the Bond girl etc). Perhaps during the PTS of the next one he makes another reckless mistake/nearly botches the mission, and afterwards we get a brief reference from M about how long it took him to recover from his injuries in the last one. He sends Bond on an 'easy' assignment to get his head sorted, otherwise he'll be suspended from duty. Then of course much like DN the mission turns out to have something deeper to it, and Bond uses his wits and self-determination to make the right decisions, pursue the right leads, and defeat the villain. That's an 'arc' of sorts (although it's more Bond getting over obstacles rather than his personality fundamentally changing).

    I think this debate deserves its own thread.
  • Posts: 1,930
    Tough choice. With Dalton, he really seemed engaged when talking about the Fleming influence and his research into it. But it's been several years and he may not recall as much or be as enthused.

    With Craig, we'd have 3 more films than Dalton to hear his thoughts and it could really give his doubters a chance to hear his thoughts on choices he'd made or clarify the often misinterpreted "rather slash my wrists" comment, for example. It would especially insightful to hear about the production of QoS that he supposedly helped write with Forster during the writers' strikes.

    It would take a good presenter to get Dalton or Craig to address these sorts of things fans would want to know and not one of those commentaries where the actor just narrates what is going on in a scene and leaves long gaps between comments.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,999
    Craig might be harder to control with his comments on ******** scriptwriting and **** ******** injuries or even the ********* awesome food and drink on location.

    Probably more entertaining though.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,739
    BT3366 wrote: »
    With Craig, we'd have 3 more films than Dalton to hear his thoughts and it could really give his doubters a chance to hear his thoughts on choices he'd made or clarify the often misinterpreted "rather slash my wrists" comment, for example. It would especially insightful to hear about the production of QoS that he supposedly helped write with Forster during the writers' strikes.

    I think a lot of that he covers in Being James Bond, which basically is a commentary track really and is a good watch.
  • Posts: 4,390
    Either would be cool, but I'll go Craig. I think he'd have more to say about his films, and as said he was a producer towards the end of his era so might have more insight into the productions.
  • Posts: 15,282
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.
  • Posts: 4,390
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.

    Y'know weirdly he's actually never come across that way from what I understand. I remember reading on these forums that he's still close with the Broccoli family too.
  • Posts: 7,654
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.

    Don't believe that at all! He seems very respectful of the character, and as @007HallY says, he does seem to be close to the Broccoli family ( Wasn’t he one of the pallbearers at Cubbys funeral?)
  • Posts: 15,282
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.

    Y'know weirdly he's actually never come across that way from what I understand. I remember reading on these forums that he's still close with the Broccoli family too.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I do remember reading an interview from when LTK was being shot and his frustration was palpable.
  • edited January 7 Posts: 4,390
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.

    Y'know weirdly he's actually never come across that way from what I understand. I remember reading on these forums that he's still close with the Broccoli family too.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I do remember reading an interview from when LTK was being shot and his frustration was palpable.

    Oh I'm sure Bond films are frustrating to work on! But that's nothing new and we got a glimpse of that sort of reaction from Craig with his wrists comment. I don't think I've read of Dalton expressing frustration after the fact though (and to be honest, I think a lot of other actors would have been more annoyed about the circumstances, especially with his contract). Just look at Brosnan's reaction in 2004.

    I'm sure there's lots of interviews with him talking about it, but the only one I know of off the top of my head is a clip of Dalton talking about it at a ceremony (Michael Parkinson was hosting, but not sure exactly what it was). I think he said something to the effect of they're hard films to work on (long hours etc), but he loved the people and the experience, and he could never miss it because the franchise and his contribution to it is so much a part of him. Which I think is quite nice.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,739
    I guess that would be the BBC 40th anniversary of 007 show if it was Parky.
  • edited January 7 Posts: 15,282
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.

    Y'know weirdly he's actually never come across that way from what I understand. I remember reading on these forums that he's still close with the Broccoli family too.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I do remember reading an interview from when LTK was being shot and his frustration was palpable.

    Oh I'm sure Bond films are frustrating to work on! But that's nothing new and we got a glimpse of that sort of reaction from Craig with his wrists comment. I don't think I've read of Dalton expressing frustration after the fact though (and to be honest, I think a lot of other actors would have been more annoyed about the circumstances, especially with his contract). Just look at Brosnan's reaction in 2004.

    I'm sure there's lots of interviews with him talking about it, but the only one I know of off the top of my head is a clip of Dalton talking about it at a ceremony (Michael Parkinson was hosting, but not sure exactly what it was). I think he said something to the effect of they're hard films to work on (long hours etc), but he loved the people and the experience, and he could never miss it because the franchise and his contribution to it is so much a part of him. Which I think is quite nice.

    Like I said, maybe there's me reading too much into it, and I know he had serious issues working with Glen on LTK. Anyway, I remember reading an interview when he said LTK might be THE last Bond, which shocked me at the time. He didn't sound like someone who was happy about how things were turning out.

    But hey, I think even Connery saw the role as both a blessing and a curse. Moore probably not, as it gave him a career renaissance.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,533
    Add in that when they were ready to start up Bond 17 Dalton said he'd only do one. Cubby famously said that with the hiatus he'd need to commit to more than one. Timothy then walked away from the role. If he had loved it and enjoyed it why only commit to one more? Why wouldn't he commit to 2-3 more?

    I think Craig would be a more entertaining commentary than Timothy. I agree with those who said they would need someone with them to bring out stories and avoid awkward silences.
  • edited January 7 Posts: 1,930
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll go for Craig too, for all the reasons above.

    Plus, I suspect Dalton might be somewhat bitter about his tenure.

    Y'know weirdly he's actually never come across that way from what I understand. I remember reading on these forums that he's still close with the Broccoli family too.

    Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I do remember reading an interview from when LTK was being shot and his frustration was palpable.

    Oh I'm sure Bond films are frustrating to work on! But that's nothing new and we got a glimpse of that sort of reaction from Craig with his wrists comment. I don't think I've read of Dalton expressing frustration after the fact though (and to be honest, I think a lot of other actors would have been more annoyed about the circumstances, especially with his contract). Just look at Brosnan's reaction in 2004.

    I'm sure there's lots of interviews with him talking about it, but the only one I know of off the top of my head is a clip of Dalton talking about it at a ceremony (Michael Parkinson was hosting, but not sure exactly what it was). I think he said something to the effect of they're hard films to work on (long hours etc), but he loved the people and the experience, and he could never miss it because the franchise and his contribution to it is so much a part of him. Which I think is quite nice.

    Like I said, maybe there's me reading too much into it, and I know he had serious issues working with Glen on LTK. Anyway, I remember reading an interview when he said LTK might be THE last Bond, which shocked me at the time. He didn't sound like someone who was happy about how things were turning out.
    I believe Dalton mentioning it being the last was in an interview in the Bondage American fan club magazine. I don't have it handy or I'd check, but pretty sure that's the source. I've seen a number of anti-Dalton people use it against him.
    thedove wrote: »
    Add in that when they were ready to start up Bond 17 Dalton said he'd only do one. Cubby famously said that with the hiatus he'd need to commit to more than one. Timothy then walked away from the role. If he had loved it and enjoyed it why only commit to one more? Why wouldn't he commit to 2-3 more?

    I still wonder if that's actually true or if that was an invented excuse as I still recall a Premiere Magazine article that basically had an MGM exec saying that if Brosnan wasn't cast as Bond and Dalton out that MGM would not help finance it.
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