Would you rather run into Fields at the airport OR Paloma at a bar?

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  • edited August 2023 Posts: 572
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Hulking henchman to compliment a MAIN female villain for a change.
    THIS

    But if I could only pick one, femme fatale.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 12,460
    JamesStock wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Hulking henchman to compliment a MAIN female villain for a change.
    THIS

    But if I could only pick one, femme fatale.

    I wouldn’t mind a great femme fatale again, it’s just that we’re so overdue for a main female villain. Could make both of those in one possibly as well!
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,531
    A femme fatale, or a hulking henchwoman.
  • Posts: 1,969
    I am going to go with femme fatale since hulking henchmen are a dime a dozen and no woman has come close to Fiona as a baddie. It's probably worth a discussion to pinpoint why Fiona was really spectacular and no one has come close since. Fiona managed to be bad without being Bond's physical equal, trained in martial arts, or do ridiculous things like jumping from the Eiffel Tower or crushing a man between her thighs.
  • Posts: 15,096
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I am going to go with femme fatale since hulking henchmen are a dime a dozen and no woman has come close to Fiona as a baddie. It's probably worth a discussion to pinpoint why Fiona was really spectacular and no one has come close since. Fiona managed to be bad without being Bond's physical equal, trained in martial arts, or do ridiculous things like jumping from the Eiffel Tower or crushing a man between her thighs.

    Because like I said, people tend to misunderstand femmes fatales. And that's why I'm reluctant to see them again in a Bond movie to be honest.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2023 Posts: 6,271
    TWINE would have been better had they committed to Elektra as the main villain. Bond could have dispatched Renard first and then made his way to the Maiden's Tower for a final confrontation.

    But I think Eon was timid about Bond killing her so they kind of buried it right before a big action sequence.

    If they had reversed the scenes then her death at the hands of Bond would have had a far greater impact than it does in the film.

    I still would prefer a femme fatale over a hulking henchman because the latter has been so overdone in the series.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,787
    It's still a wonder, especially in this era where gender equality is really relevant, why there aren't no femme fatales, for me, they most represent the strong female types.

    Especially that the Bond Franchise is getting some flaks today for the sexism, depiction of female characters and etc.

    Think of Xenia Onatopp or yes Fiona Volpe and May Day, they're strong, and possibly wouldn't look out of place today, and for me, they're also more of Bond's equal (although working for the bad side).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2023 Posts: 6,271
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It's still a wonder, especially in this era where gender equality is really relevant, why there aren't no femme fatales, for me, they most represent the strong female types.

    Especially that the Bond Franchise is getting some flaks today for the sexism, depiction of female characters and etc.

    Think of Xenia Onatopp or yes Fiona Volpe and May Day, they're strong, and possibly wouldn't look out of place today.

    Yes, May Day is up there with those two. The casting of Grace Jones remains one of the more daring and exciting moves in the series, and she certainly invigorated that film's first half! Think of her silent scenes with Macnee. What a presence.
  • Posts: 6,709
    Femme fatale, all the way.
  • Posts: 4,087
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It's still a wonder, especially in this era where gender equality is really relevant, why there aren't no femme fatales, for me, they most represent the strong female types.

    Especially that the Bond Franchise is getting some flaks today for the sexism, depiction of female characters and etc.

    Think of Xenia Onatopp or yes Fiona Volpe and May Day, they're strong, and possibly wouldn't look out of place today, and for me, they're also more of Bond's equal (although working for the bad side).

    I suppose there's a fine line between 'positive' female representation and well written female representation onscreen. It's something a few big franchises struggle with nowadays.

    I agree though, I think we're overdue another femme fatale villain in the vein of May Day, Onatopp and Volpe. Another one I like is Fatima Blush from NSNA, one of the few highlights of that film for me. There's something inherently fun about those characters alongside how sinister they can be. The closest main villain I can think of who has these qualities is Silva.

    As others have said I think it'd be interesting seeing a main female Bond villain with these traits. Burly hulking henchmen are fine, but so many can be boring. So femme fatale villainess for me.
  • Posts: 15,096
    echo wrote: »
    TWINE would have been better had they committed to Elektra as the main villain. Bond could have dispatched Renard first and then made his way to the Maiden's Tower for a final confrontation.

    But I think Eon was timid about Bond killing her so they kind of buried it right before a big action sequence.

    If they had reversed the scenes then her death at the hands of Bond would have had a far greater impact than it does in the film.

    I still would prefer a femme fatale over a hulking henchman because the latter has been so overdone in the series.
    Well Apted said she was the main villain, but when you have to explain who your main antagonist is your movie is flawed. I for once thought Renard was criminally underused.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,787
    007HallY wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    It's still a wonder, especially in this era where gender equality is really relevant, why there aren't no femme fatales, for me, they most represent the strong female types.

    Especially that the Bond Franchise is getting some flaks today for the sexism, depiction of female characters and etc.

    Think of Xenia Onatopp or yes Fiona Volpe and May Day, they're strong, and possibly wouldn't look out of place today, and for me, they're also more of Bond's equal (although working for the bad side).

    I suppose there's a fine line between 'positive' female representation and well written female representation onscreen. It's something a few big franchises struggle with nowadays.

    Mission Impossible succeed in their female characters, maybe did it better than some of the Bond Girls.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,308
    They both feel a bit played out to me; neither feel like great options when put like that and it makes me want the whole series shaken up.

    I'll go with QBranch's hulking henchwoman.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I think Fiona works wonderfully, and has never been bettered, because the actor(s), didn’t play the character as an obvious baddie, like an Onatopp…


    Instead, she was playing a woman who was committed to the "cause", just as much as Bond was committed to his assignment. That’s what makes her dangerous. She knows what she’s doing is obviously breaking the law, but I don’t think Fiona sees what she’s doing as bad, or evil. Instead, it’s an opportunity….

    Her battle with Bond, logically, could have gone either way.

    Bond won by a “spin”…

    The other femme fatales are obvious “baddies”, especially Onatopp, as she orgasmically dispatches her opponents. Compared to Fiona, that’s just a bad cartoon.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    peter wrote: »
    I think Fiona works wonderfully, and has never been bettered, because the actor(s), didn’t play the character as an obvious baddie, like an Onatopp…


    Instead, she was playing a woman who was committed to the "cause", just as much as Bond was committed to his assignment. That’s what makes her dangerous. She knows what she’s doing is obviously breaking the law, but I don’t think Fiona sees what she’s doing as bad, or evil. Instead, it’s an opportunity….

    Her battle with Bond, logically, could have gone either way.

    Bond won by a “spin”…

    The other femme fatales are obvious “baddies”, especially Onatopp, as she orgasmically dispatches her opponents. Compared to Fiona, that’s just a bad cartoon.

    Yes, I agree about Onatopp, I've felt that she's a bit out of place for a grounded film like Goldeneye (the tank chase is another discussion).
  • Posts: 15,096
    peter wrote: »
    I think Fiona works wonderfully, and has never been bettered, because the actor(s), didn’t play the character as an obvious baddie, like an Onatopp…


    Instead, she was playing a woman who was committed to the "cause", just as much as Bond was committed to his assignment. That’s what makes her dangerous. She knows what she’s doing is obviously breaking the law, but I don’t think Fiona sees what she’s doing as bad, or evil. Instead, it’s an opportunity….

    Her battle with Bond, logically, could have gone either way.

    Bond won by a “spin”…

    The other femme fatales are obvious “baddies”, especially Onatopp, as she orgasmically dispatches her opponents. Compared to Fiona, that’s just a bad cartoon.

    That's my issue with most of them: too cartoonish. Femme fatale =/= capable fighter.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,787
    May I ask, is Vesper a femme fatale? Because she worked for the villain.

    She also betrayed Bond, it's obvious that she used Bond's naivety to fall in love and manipulate him.
    She also the planned the whole scheme.

    It's now clear to me that Elektra was actually inspired by the Vesper character, not Tracy, because they have similarities: both manipulated Bond's feelings by having him falling in love with them, then both also have other lovers than Bond (Yusef and Renard), both betrayed Bond.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    that's a good question @SIS_HQ ... I think Vesper has traits of a femme fatale, but I'm not sure if she's a complete femme fatale, if that makes any sense?

    Is this reasoning of mine because Vesper's betrayal of Bond was for a genuinely moral reason (to save her "lover")?

    Is it because she did ultimately fall in love with Bond?

    A mixture of these two (whatever the case may be, poor Vesper was in over her head...)???
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 4,087
    I mean, one can argue Femme Fatales can be sympathetic too and use their feminine charms against the male protagonist for understandable reasons. I dunno, I suppose a character like Evelyn Mulwry in Chinatown is an example of a mysterious woman who, while she doesn't initially come off as a classic 'femme fatale', does manipulate the situation/Jack Nicholson's character (again for pretty understandable reasons). It's perhaps more a feature of later film noirs, and I'm not sure if Vesper even in the novel was ever meant to be a classic 'femme fatale' in the Raymond Chandler or Dashiell Hammett sense (and it's worth noting Fleming was a fan of that type of fiction).

    But yes, you can certainly argue Vesper and other specific Bond girls are femme fatales. Again not in the classic Film Noir or Dime Store novel way, but enough to draw similarities. I always thought Andrea in TMWTGG had a sort of femme fatale thing about her in a similar way to Mulwry in Chinatown - sympathetic, but mysterious, often playing more 'damsel in distress' than she actually is, and is manipulating things in order to get herself out of a bad situation.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Hmm, very true @007HallY ... I like your examples of Mulwray and Andrea... They are both sympathetic, but I'd classify them as femme fatale... But for some reason, I'm holding back on saying Vesper is one.... (Why??)
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 4,087
    peter wrote: »
    Hmm, very true @007HallY ... I like your examples of Mulwray and Andrea... They are both sympathetic, but I'd classify them as femme fatale... But for some reason, I'm holding back on saying Vesper is one.... (Why??)

    I suppose there's an innocence to Vesper. More so in the novel, but it's there in the film too. She's not someone who's been trapped in her situation for many years like Andrea or Mulrway, and unlike those characters she doesn't necessarily outright lie to Bond and certainly doesn't morph aspects of her personality to fit the situation (she just evades questions about her past, but ultimately her initial prickliness towards Bond and later affection comes off as sincere. She even essentially sacrifices her own life to save Bond, whereas a classic femme fatale leads the male protagonist into danger). She isn't as hardened in this sense, but has just been placed in a horrible situation. So I guess you can argue she's more a tragic character than a femme fatale.

    I think with how genres change, and how Bond overlaps with these other genres, Femme Fatale can be a pretty broad thing. I mean, I myself have probably used it to describe Bond girls who are merely more independent, are more mysterious, or have a tragic backstory. But there's a lot of wiggle room.
  • Posts: 15,096
    007HallY wrote: »
    I mean, one can argue Femme Fatales can be sympathetic too and use their feminine charms against the male protagonist for understandable reasons. I dunno, I suppose a character like Evelyn Mulwry in Chinatown is an example of a mysterious woman who, while she doesn't initially come off as a classic 'femme fatale', does manipulate the situation/Jack Nicholson's character (again for pretty understandable reasons). It's perhaps more a feature of later film noirs, and I'm not sure if Vesper even in the novel was ever meant to be a classic 'femme fatale' in the Raymond Chandler or Dashiell Hammett sense (and it's worth noting Fleming was a fan of that type of fiction).

    But yes, you can certainly argue Vesper and other specific Bond girls are femme fatales. Again not in the classic Film Noir or Dime Store novel way, but enough to draw similarities. I always thought Andrea in TMWTGG had a sort of femme fatale thing about her in a similar way to Mulwry in Chinatown - sympathetic, but mysterious, often playing more 'damsel in distress' than she actually is, and is manipulating things in order to get herself out of a bad situation.

    Evelyn Mulwray was a deconstruction of a femme fatale though: she is depicted as one at first, only to be revealed as a victim later on. Vesper is closer to one, but in the end she is a tragic character. With all the flaws of Elektra, she's much closer to a proper femme fatale: although cunning and evil, she has a certain level of vulnerability. You take a look at Bridget O'Shaugnessy in The Maltese Falcon and she's pretty much like that: as ruthless as she may be, she might still have feelings for Sam Spade.
  • Why can't we have a hulking femme fatal?
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,390
    Good question! I know a few from the world of professional wrestling that might be a good fit for that @Scaramanga1974 Never been done in the Bond film before. Was interested in the female henchwoman in the un-filmed Bond17 screen treatments.
  • Posts: 16,146
    Femme fatale.
  • Posts: 1,969
    Assuming we get a hulking femme fatale, what is the likelihood the actress playing her will escape attention for her size? Will she be subjected to a scrutiny that hulking men are not subjected to?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,787
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Assuming we get a hulking femme fatale, what is the likelihood the actress playing her will escape attention for her size? Will she be subjected to a scrutiny that hulking men are not subjected to?

    This is where Daisy May Cooper would've fit.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,472
    Femme fatale / henchwoman. While almost everyone loves Fiona the most, I'm much more a fan of Xenia. Crazy, brutal but also attractive. I would love to see another character going in this direction.

    Fiona doesn't have enough interesting scenes (imo) but she is definitely hot. In or outside of the bathroom.
  • Posts: 4,087
    Why can't we have a hulking femme fatal?

    I guess that was kind of May Day. Sort of.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,126
    A femme fatale, we've had countless hulking henchman, and nobody has done it better than Robert Shaw as Red Grant.
    Fiona Volpe is the femme fatale that all of them get measured by. If somehow the film makers can make a modern version of her, then we'd be very lucky. Helga Brandt was just a carbon copy of Fiona, but not quite as good. But not terrible. Is MayDay the next?
    She started off great, but then inexplicably changed sides at the end. Considering all that she had done with Zorin, being (almost) drowned, you'd think she wouldn't have changed her allegiance so quickly. If she'd stayed villainous and Bond had killed her, she would be more memorable and a better character, imo.
    Xenia was great, and never stopped being a villain, although she was a little cartoonish in her portrayal. Easily the best after Fiona.
    So, a great, well written and cast Femme Fatale, and we'll have a winner on our hands.
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