"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • edited December 2023 Posts: 7,418
    I agree about Tiffany Case, her first encounter with Bond showed her to be a more stronger character than the bimbo she turned out to be later!
    I would also have kept the film in Amsterdam longer ( a boat chase on the canals was a missed opportunity!) and finish it in South Africa. The Las Vegas setting lets it down!
    Also agree more should have been made of Bond avenging Tracy than the throwaway pts. Maybe have Bond kill Blofeld halfway through the movie, for to realise the main protagnist to be Willard Whyte or Tiffany?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Maybe have Bond kill Blofeld halfway through the movie, for to realise the main protagnist to be Willard Whyte or Tiffany?

    Sounds a bit like NTTD!

    DAF is such a mess...where to begin? I think it would have been better if they had had Pleasance or Savalas as Blofeld.
  • Posts: 5,993
    Another missed opportunity : the absence of Spectreville and the train chase that follows it. There was the possibility of having a truly epic action scene, and... we didn't get it.
  • Posts: 1,340
    Gerard wrote: »
    Another missed opportunity : the absence of Spectreville and the train chase that follows it. There was the possibility of having a truly epic action scene, and... we didn't get it.

    The novel wasn't very good. I can undersand the changes.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    Gerard wrote: »
    Another missed opportunity : the absence of Spectreville and the train chase that follows it. There was the possibility of having a truly epic action scene, and... we didn't get it.

    The novel wasn't very good. I can undersand the changes.

    I actually liked the book, for me, in terms of quality, it's still much better than the film imo.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited December 2023 Posts: 9,509
    I am actually with Deke on this one: DAF is by far, my least favorite Fleming novel... It's surprisingly slow, although I think Tiffany is quite interesting as a character... But the book as a whole? Quite a bit of effort on my part to read to it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2023 Posts: 16,383
    I like the early stuff in Amsterdam and with the diamond smuggling pipeline: to me that's more interesting than the Vegas stuff. I think I'd have quite liked Bond to have perhaps gone to Africa to follow the pipeline perhaps.
    What was the abandoned ending? Something about a mine and a train wasn't it? I'm not keen on the oil rig ending at all.
    Agreed with the comments above about Tiffany starting out well as a super-smart diamond smuggler and turning into a bikini-wearing moron by the end. In some ways this film feels like different people wrote the two halves of the movie.

    Also, just don't put Felix in it at all. Funnily enough, I can see Jimmy Dean (Whyte) playing a surprisingly faithful and potentially best screen version of Felix, as I think he's really good in this.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Wow I had never considered Jimmy Dean as a Felix Leiter but the chemistry with Connery would have worked very well. He is a stand out in the film. I actually think most of the casting choices are strong.

    Wint and Kidd are creepy and evil enough with a hint of menace. Shady Tree is a hoot, I love Morton Slumber and who doesn't like Klaus from Section G. LOL!

    Yes @mtm one draft had Bond fighting Blofeld in a salt mine(?) and there were no doubts when it came to Blofeld's demise. I suppose a missed opportunity in the film might be that we never know whether Blofeld lives or dies. Unlike YOLT where we see Blofeld clearly leaving the volcano after triggering the self destruct, Blofeld is last seen suspended in the sub.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2023 Posts: 16,383
    Was it really a salt mine? Seems a bizarre choice in a film about diamonds! :)
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    Yeah, I am not aware of any diamonds being present in Nevada but I could be wrong. The salt mine would allow for each character to get a white powder on themselves, with any blood it might have looked rather spooky or dramatic.

    I believe Bond reached the mine by a parasail? Blofeld by more conventional means, maybe the train. It was scrapped due to cost.
  • Posts: 15,117
    It's hard to go not all guns blazing on that one, as there's a LOT of missed opportunities in DAF. So many to mention, both for the film in itself and its place in the series. His place in the cannon, in fact.

    I might say first what was not a missed opportunity: having Sean Connery return was the right move. Now why didn't they make it a straight vengeance story I don't know. I think audiences would have accepted anything as long as Connery was Bond. And thar includes a much darker movie than what we got.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 4,139
    I’m actually fine with DAF not being ‘a revenge film’. I think with Connery returning and the need for a ‘course corrected’ tone it wouldn’t have worked. The PTS is actually sufficient at creating a bridge between OHMSS and this one (if you really want one) as well as acting as a sort of ‘soft reboot’.

    As others have said it’s a shame we didn’t get a better version of Tiffany Case (not my favourite Fleming novel either, but Case is a very viviid character). I think Jill St. John was perfectly capable of playing a more world weary version of the character. She sort of does during her initial appearance before the film defaults to the ‘bimbo’ concept.

    I suppose other missed opportunities would be not including the scene where Plenty sneaks back into Bond’s hotel and finds Case’s address… for the longest time I never understood why Plenty (heck, it’s not even very clear it’s Plenty) winds up dead in her pool. Perhaps not leaning more into Blofeld’s ‘double’ concept is another (I know the film has to involve diamonds in some form, but the laser satellite thing is so lame. Why not a film about Blofeld trying to replace White/someone more important with a similar double? It’s a bit daft but the film’s supposed to be to some extent).
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2023 Posts: 16,383
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies in general from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    I think it's one of the least good Bond movies, but it's probably one of the more important ones as it marks a new tone and direction that the movies went in, and one which was very successful for them. So in terms of opportunities taken, they probably took the right one for the continued longevity and success of the series.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 1,340
    They should have Killed Blofeld in this movie.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    Commercially they made the right move. To be honest I’d argue with that in mind they do a good job with the PTS. It can easily be viewed as a mini revenge subplot with the rest of the film taking place some time after. But if you hadn’t watched OHMSS previously it still makes sense.
    mtm wrote: »

    I think it's one of the least good Bond movies, but it's probably one of the more important ones as it marks a new tone and direction that the movies went in, and one which was very successful for them. So in terms of opportunities taken, they probably took the right one for the continued longevity and success of the series.

    i suppose it marks one of the first times in the series such a radical course correction was taken and paid off (even the films from GF onwards, while different, weren’t as radical a departure). I agree, not my favourite, but an important one.
    They should have Killed Blofeld in this movie.

    That’s the beauty of DAF - if you wish to view it as such Blofeld does in fact die at the end.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited December 2023 Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    Commercially they made the right move. To be honest I’d argue with that in mind they do a good job with the PTS. It can easily be viewed as a mini revenge subplot with the rest of the film taking place some time after. But if you hadn’t watched OHMSS previously it still makes sense.

    Plus they have the neat little gag about Bond having taken a holiday- it refers to the PTS with Bond 'killing' Blofeld, but some audience members can take it as a wink to Connery having sat the last film out.

    I think I'd still lose the diamond ring gag from Moneypenny though- for anyone who did remember OHMSS it comes across as incredibly crass and insensitive from her! :D
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,426
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    Commercially they made the right move. To be honest I’d argue with that in mind they do a good job with the PTS. It can easily be viewed as a mini revenge subplot with the rest of the film taking place some time after. But if you hadn’t watched OHMSS previously it still makes sense.

    Plus they have the neat little gag about Bond having taken a holiday- it refers to the PTS with Bond 'killing' Blofeld, but some audience members can take it as a wink to Connery having sat the last film out.

    I think I'd still lose the diamond ring gag from Moneypenny though- for anyone who did remember OHMSS it comes across as incredibly crass and insensitive from her! :D

    I agree @mtm it comes across as a cringey answer to the question, though Bond does set it up with the "what do you know about diamonds Miss Moneypenny." The last scene of Maxwell and Connery together and it takes place at a border crossing. Those two had great chemistry and were always a highlight of the office scenes.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    Commercially they made the right move. To be honest I’d argue with that in mind they do a good job with the PTS. It can easily be viewed as a mini revenge subplot with the rest of the film taking place some time after. But if you hadn’t watched OHMSS previously it still makes sense.

    Plus they have the neat little gag about Bond having taken a holiday- it refers to the PTS with Bond 'killing' Blofeld, but some audience members can take it as a wink to Connery having sat the last film out.

    I think I'd still lose the diamond ring gag from Moneypenny though- for anyone who did remember OHMSS it comes across as incredibly crass and insensitive from her! :D

    I agree @mtm it comes across as a cringey answer to the question, though Bond does set it up with the "what do you know about diamonds Miss Moneypenny." The last scene of Maxwell and Connery together and it takes place at a border crossing. Those two had great chemistry and were always a highlight of the office scenes.

    Ironically, Sean and Lois filmed their shots separately for that scene!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    Commercially they made the right move. To be honest I’d argue with that in mind they do a good job with the PTS. It can easily be viewed as a mini revenge subplot with the rest of the film taking place some time after. But if you hadn’t watched OHMSS previously it still makes sense.

    Plus they have the neat little gag about Bond having taken a holiday- it refers to the PTS with Bond 'killing' Blofeld, but some audience members can take it as a wink to Connery having sat the last film out.

    I think I'd still lose the diamond ring gag from Moneypenny though- for anyone who did remember OHMSS it comes across as incredibly crass and insensitive from her! :D

    I agree @mtm it comes across as a cringey answer to the question, though Bond does set it up with the "what do you know about diamonds Miss Moneypenny." The last scene of Maxwell and Connery together and it takes place at a border crossing. Those two had great chemistry and were always a highlight of the office scenes.

    Ironically, Sean and Lois filmed their shots separately for that scene!

    Apart from the one where they're in the same shot together! :D
    thedove wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't know; I think really, as OHMSS perhaps wasn't a massive popular success, it probably was the right move to more or less ignore it. Especially as DAF is arguably the template for the next 10 years or so of the Bond films, so it's easy to argue that creatively it was the right move. In actual fact I think there's an argument to say that it was a bit of a template for big popular movies from then on- I think you can draw a pretty straight line from that to Smokey & Bandit and other comedy action movies of the 70s.

    Commercially they made the right move. To be honest I’d argue with that in mind they do a good job with the PTS. It can easily be viewed as a mini revenge subplot with the rest of the film taking place some time after. But if you hadn’t watched OHMSS previously it still makes sense.

    Plus they have the neat little gag about Bond having taken a holiday- it refers to the PTS with Bond 'killing' Blofeld, but some audience members can take it as a wink to Connery having sat the last film out.

    I think I'd still lose the diamond ring gag from Moneypenny though- for anyone who did remember OHMSS it comes across as incredibly crass and insensitive from her! :D

    I agree @mtm it comes across as a cringey answer to the question, though Bond does set it up with the "what do you know about diamonds Miss Moneypenny."

    Not quite: "What can I bring you back from Holland?"
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    But then again, they've acknowledged it in FYEO in many years later on maybe in TSWLM too.

    So OHMSS not being acknowledged here doesn't makes sense.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 2,266
    The loss of Peter Hunt as director is probably the biggest missed opportunity imo. Regardless of how some feel about Lazenby, Hunt provided a bold new direction for the series that was completely abandoned by the producers/UA the moment they decided to bring back Guy Hamilton and the camp.

    Where Majesty’s elevated the character of Bond/the film series to new and exciting possibilities, Diamonds walks back on all that promise and instead the result is a drab film that lacks every bit of style/sophistication that some of its predecessors effortlessly had.

    I say this as somebody who dearly loved Diamonds when I was younger, but I can’t say I don’t dream of a version of the film with Hunt behind the camera directing, and setting a whole new tone/style for Bond in the 70s different than what we had.
  • Posts: 1,340
    Why not Terence Young?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I am not convinced by Hamilton’s 70s efforts, but then I look at Hunt’s (quite boring) non-Bond 70s films and I’m not sure he would have been quite right either.
  • The loss of Peter Hunt as director is probably the biggest missed opportunity imo.
    I agree. As much as I would have wanted a second movie with Lazenby, a DAF starring Lazenby is, in a way, more a "What If?" than a missed opportunity. It's not like Saltzman and Broccoli had the choice at the time since Lazenby himself was the one who refused to sign a contract for additional films. What was a missed opportunity however was for them not to call back Peter Hunt. I do understand that their idea was to recreate commercially successful aspects of Goldfinger, but, clearly, this has to do with the story more than the director. OHMSS proves that Hunt is perfectly able to direct a bombastic and action-oriented movie.

    Overall, DAF is one of my least favourite films in the series. I tried a few years ago to pitch an alternative take, so clearly I would change a lot of things in the story but, again, it falls more into "What If?" territory than missed opportunities.
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not convinced by Hamilton’s 70s efforts, but then I look at Hunt’s (quite boring) non-Bond 70s films and I’m not sure he would have been quite right either.

    Perhaps it would have been similar to Martin Campbell in which something about that particular director working on a Bond film would have resulted in better work? His career outside of Bond is very hit or miss too.
  • Posts: 1,340
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not convinced by Hamilton’s 70s efforts, but then I look at Hunt’s (quite boring) non-Bond 70s films and I’m not sure he would have been quite right either.

    Perhaps it would have been similar to Martin Campbell in which something about that particular director working on a Bond film would have resulted in better work? His career outside of Bond is very hit or miss too.

    Well, Campbell needs a good script too. That's the problem, they need a good script.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not convinced by Hamilton’s 70s efforts, but then I look at Hunt’s (quite boring) non-Bond 70s films and I’m not sure he would have been quite right either.

    Perhaps it would have been similar to Martin Campbell in which something about that particular director working on a Bond film would have resulted in better work? His career outside of Bond is very hit or miss too.

    I think it's more on his handling of a scene or the performances of the cast really.

    And he remained consistent in those films (OHMSS included and yes, his non-Bond films, in Gold, his handling of Moore in there didn't fit the character, who was supposed to be a bit hard, to say).

    The thing with Campbell is (for how he's such an overrated Bond director for me), still managed to make an appropriate mood or tone for a scene or the acting of the characters for such a particular scene, this is most obvious in Casino Royale.

    Hunt, often comes sometimes as a bit uncertain with some tones of the scenes (the Piz Gloria scenes for example), and there's Blofeld romancing of Tracy in the previous film where it kinda goes off the rails for the character (it comes out of nowhere, and this likely came from Hunt).
  • Posts: 4,139
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not convinced by Hamilton’s 70s efforts, but then I look at Hunt’s (quite boring) non-Bond 70s films and I’m not sure he would have been quite right either.

    Perhaps it would have been similar to Martin Campbell in which something about that particular director working on a Bond film would have resulted in better work? His career outside of Bond is very hit or miss too.

    I think it's more on his handling of a scene or the performances of the cast really.

    And he remained consistent in those films (OHMSS included and yes, his non-Bond films, in Gold, his handling of Moore in there didn't fit the character, who was supposed to be a bit hard, to say).

    The thing with Campbell is (for how he's such an overrated Bond director for me), still managed to make an appropriate mood or tone for a scene or the acting of the characters for such a particular scene, this is most obvious in Casino Royale.

    Hunt, often comes sometimes as a bit uncertain with some tones of the scenes (the Piz Gloria scenes for example), and there's Blofeld romancing of Tracy in the previous film where it kinda goes off the rails for the character (it comes out of nowhere, and this likely came from Hunt).

    I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t think Hunt (or let’s say the film) is uncertain about what he’s doing during the Piz Gloria scenes. The tone in certain places with all its bawdy late 60s humour/vibe is pretty purposeful, even if I don’t think it’s fundamentally the right one.

    Also I have no idea where Blofeld trying to romance Tracy came from, but it may well have been a scriptwriter or producer thing. Directors can make notes on scripts during development, but usually these sort of big plot decisions come from those parties. The only note about Hunt’s involvement during the writing of that moment I can find is him bringing on Simon Raven to polish up the dialogue, which is where we get the poem/dynamic of Tracy using it to distract Blofeld.

    But yeah, I really don’t know what Hunt would have done with Moore, or even Connery. I suspect pre TSWLM most directors would have struggled a bit to get Moore’s Bond right and we’d have always gotten a version of the more tongue in cheek DAF (I will say that Hunt may have given us a more polished film technically speaking though - some of the filmmaking in DAF is atrocious).
  • Posts: 15,117
    Commercially, yes, they probably made the right move, as much as it pains me to admit it. DAF was probably a necessary evil. But I can't help thinking that all the public wanted was Sean Connery, regardless of the approach.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 1,340
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I am not convinced by Hamilton’s 70s efforts, but then I look at Hunt’s (quite boring) non-Bond 70s films and I’m not sure he would have been quite right either.

    Perhaps it would have been similar to Martin Campbell in which something about that particular director working on a Bond film would have resulted in better work? His career outside of Bond is very hit or miss too.

    I think it's more on his handling of a scene or the performances of the cast really.

    And he remained consistent in those films (OHMSS included and yes, his non-Bond films, in Gold, his handling of Moore in there didn't fit the character, who was supposed to be a bit hard, to say).

    The thing with Campbell is (for how he's such an overrated Bond director for me), still managed to make an appropriate mood or tone for a scene or the acting of the characters for such a particular scene, this is most obvious in Casino Royale.

    Hunt, often comes sometimes as a bit uncertain with some tones of the scenes (the Piz Gloria scenes for example), and there's Blofeld romancing of Tracy in the previous film where it kinda goes off the rails for the character (it comes out of nowhere, and this likely came from Hunt).

    The tone of OHMSS is fine. It was a Bond movie after all. But this movie is not as realistic as you want it to be.

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